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SAA To Order A380 Soon  
User currently offlineSAA201 From South Africa, joined May 2001, 512 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 years 7 months 4 hours ago) and read 4297 times:

Hi all,

Here is the full story http://www.sundaytimes.co.za/2003/02/23/business/companies/comp04.asp



42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 4266 times:

This is an absolutely outstanding article. Finally, some analysis about the A340-600's performance as well, in actual tangible numbers.

SAA201, I have a list of questions...

Is SAA actually growing as fast as the article makes it sound?
Are you flying 744s on each of your slots to LHR?
Are your JFK and Atlanta flights huge money makers for you? Filling up the 744s seat wise?

I was just fascinated that the article implies that not only are the 744s aging, but that SAA was outgrowing them anyway. I know the 744 isn't a 21st century plane, but it does seem to be effective. The FAA fuel tank directive obviously hurts you guys... and the A380 would solve that. The A380 could also do the ATL trip nonstop in both directions no problem.

I'd also imagine RR powerplants being chosen - which RR needs don't they? Isn't the GP7200 whooping up the Trent 900 pretty well in Sales?

N


User currently offlinePolair From United States of America, joined May 2001, 893 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 4258 times:

Hmm. Sounds all right. I can understand 4 A380, but i dont get buying 22 like Emirates????

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

Are your SA - New York">JFK and Atlanta flights huge money makers for you? Filling up the 744s seat wise?

SA takes severe payload penalties (in the form of pax) for it's N. American 744 ops...... shouldnt be tough to fill them at all.


but i dont get buying 22 like Emirates????

For all we know, EK may be planning to corner the early market, the lease some planes out to other carriers.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Does the 744 fuel tank directive apply to all 744 operators? How much does it reduce 744 range by? Is it a permanent or temporary directive?




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 4219 times:

I don't think its something that can be repaired cheaply, but I don't know

It does apply for all 744 operators to the United States, but I'm sure other countries are taking it to heart as its safety related.

And it does not apply to 744ERs.

I think it reduces it by a good 600 to 1000 nm.

N


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Thanks Neil.

A 600-1000nm range reduction must be hitting a number of 744 hard.

Neil.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineJmc1975 From Israel, joined Sep 2000, 3276 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 4202 times:

SA takes severe payload penalties (in the form of pax) for it's N. American 744 ops...... shouldnt be tough to fill them at all.


That is very true. Last month, I flew SA - Georgia">ATL-CPT on a 747-400 (ZS-SAY), which is configured 11F/56J/285Y. I noticed that Y-class was booked to 216 pax, and restricted to 271. Also, the temperature at departure time was 31 degrees Fahrenheit and it still used up almost all 11889' of Runway 27R. Just imagine how severe the restriction would be during the summer.




.......
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 3 hours ago) and read 4200 times:

I'm sure QF was unimpressed.

But they were able to throw their 744ERs on the LAX route quickly thereafter, or maybe even right before.

N


User currently offlineQANTAS747-438 From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 1963 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 4176 times:

Yikes! That was not good reading material for a Boeing 744 fan! I'd hate to see SAA's 744s go away in replacement of the A380! But I had no idea that the A346 was that much more efficient.


My posts/replies are strictly my opinion and not that of any company, organization, or Southwest Airlines.
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 4165 times:

Well, if it makes you feel better I think the article was comparing the A346 to the 742...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I really am interested to know what the economics vs. the 744 are.

N


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 4157 times:

Oh wait. It does refer to the 744 at the end.

22 tons is way less... but according to their fleet plan, SAA isn't gonna fly the A346 to New York... they still show a 744 on their future plans.

Does the A346 carry enough people for the New York run?

N


User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 30
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 2 hours ago) and read 4149 times:

Not only:

(quote from the above mentioned article):
"The aircraft needed 28 ton s of fuel less than the B747 Classic which usually services the route - a saving of some R77 000. It also carried an extra 30 ton s in weight, increasing revenue further. And it needed only three cockpit crew rather than five.

SAA estimates that over a year the A340 will carry four times the payload of a B747 Classic on the Hong Kong route. And studies have shown that to New York, the A340 will use around 22 ton s of fuel less than the B747-400 . "


It compares the A346 with the B747 classic on the HKG route and with the B744 to New York.

Just a question: does the B744 have to do a fuel stop on the route to New York and will the A346 do the same stop as well? This could also play a role in the consumption.

Regards
Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 4126 times:

They're very roughly similar range planes... but the A346 wouldn't be saddled by the FAA fuel tank directive, so it'd make it nonstop most likely.

The A380 will nonstop it with ease. I also wouldn't be surprised to see SAA get an A345 or two and pack it up with seats, in the meantime.

N


User currently offlineZSSNC From Germany, joined Feb 2003, 428 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 4086 times:

They're very roughly similar range planes... but the A346 wouldn't be saddled by the FAA fuel tank directive, so it'd make it nonstop most likely.

The A380 will nonstop it with ease. I also wouldn't be surprised to see SAA get an A345 or two and pack it up with seats, in the meantime.


Right now, all flights ex JNB have to make a fuel stop on its trips to ATL and JFK. However, the 346 could fly that route nonstop.

Now, when it comes to the 345, SAA is actually considering to buy some of those as an additional replacement for their Boeing 737-800 (no kidding, that is what Andrè Viljoen said).

ZSSNC



Airbus A340-600 - the longest temptation in the sky
User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 30
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 1 hour ago) and read 4084 times:

Then I wonder, if the huge difference in fuel consumption is also linked to the additional fuel stop of the B744. If so, the numbers are not really comparable.

Regards
Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineSailorOrion From Germany, joined Feb 2001, 2058 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months ago) and read 4076 times:

Gerardo.
Of couese from an engineering point-of-view it is not very prudent to compare a one-stop flight to a non-stop flight and saying: Hey, the A346 needs 22% less fuel. However, from an operational point of view things are different.

The A346:
-needs 22% less fuel
-gets there faster.

It doesnt matter HOW this she achieves this, it just matter THAT she does. The A346 flies there nonstop, the B744 does not. So it is conceivable that the A346 might be the better plane to fly there.
Both are fine aircraft. There are other routes where the B744 would be cheaper / better to operate.

SailorOrion


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 34
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months ago) and read 4067 times:

The aircraft needed 28 ton s of fuel less than the B747 Classic which usually services the route - classic doesnt do this route, 744 does it (as some of you mentioned)

And it needed only three cockpit crew rather than five - since when does the 744 have a cockpit crew of 5 ?

This is actually a pretty biased article. I like the 346 and I like the A380, but to pick out facts like these as the basis of your article is pretty shoddy journalism


User currently onlineVirginFlyer From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 4575 posts, RR: 41
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months ago) and read 4059 times:

Artsyman - it was refering to the 747 Classic needing 5 cockpit crew, not the 747-400. Don't forget that longhaul flights carry relief crew, not just the 2/3 required at any one time to fly the aircraft.

V/F



"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 19, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 4018 times:

Artsyman-

The article refers to the airplanes correctly, and separately.

Its talking about the 28 less tons of fuel on JNB-HKG, which was previously operated by a 747 Classic, as well as the 747 Classic needing to carry 5 crewmembers.

Then later, it refers to the 22 less tons of fuel on JNB-JFK, which is operated by a 744.

It gets it all right, you just have to read it a few times to clear up the connections.

N


User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9820 posts, RR: 11
Reply 20, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

How many A380's have been ordered until now? According to the Airbus website there were 95 orders by the end of 2002 (?) from Qatar Airways, Emirates, Air France, Lufthansa, Qantas, FedEx, ILFC and Singapore Airlines. Malaysian Airlines ordered the A380 this year.

Here's my summary of the current status of (potential) A380 customers. Please correct if I got this wrong.

Qatar Airways and Emirates
Qatar Airways is expected to order two more A380's at this year's Paris Air Show. Emirates is also evaluating the need for more A380's.

Iberia
A while ago I read Iberia was interested in the A380 as well, even though I don't see that happen anytime soon. I think the A340-600 is large enough for Iberia's long-haul operations for the coming 5-8 years (?).

Cathay Pacific Airways
It still surprises me this airline hasn't selected the A380 yet, but rumours are they will lease a few from ILFC (according to an article published in Flight International). I've read on a post here that it's typical of Cathay Pacific Airways to look at the performance of a newly introduced aircraft before they place an order themselves. Is this true?

Qantas
Now that the US will introduce fuel restrictions on all 744 operators to the US, can we expect more A380 orders from Qantas or will they go for more B747-400ER's?

Japan Airlines/ANA
There have been quite some articles discussing the need for larger aircraft on the Japanese market with Japan Airlines and ANA being eyed by Airbus. What's the status on this?

Atlas Air
It has been a long time that I haven't heard from Atlas Air regarding the A380-800F. About a year ago I read an article in Flight International in which the CEO of Atlas Air was expressing interest in the A380-800F if modifications were implemented as the A380-800F at the time was configured for cargo express operations. IIRC the A380-800F needed some strengthening in the aircraft's structure and more powerful engines to allow it to carry heavier cargo which Atlas Air transports. What's the current status on Atlas Air and the A380-800F?

South African Airways
We now know South African Airways is the latest potential customer for the A380.

As for British Airways and US major airlines, there financial situation and future outlook doesn't support A380 operations. US major airlines strategies are based on frequency rather than capacity. But what about slot restrictions at major airports? There will come a time when these airlines will also need larger aircraft to cope with increasing demand (even though this may still be far away). Are US A380 operations a possibility in about 10-15 years from now?

Any comments/information is welcome.

Regards,

A388


User currently offlineManzoori From UK - England, joined Sep 2002, 1516 posts, RR: 33
Reply 21, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3926 times:

I'd also imagine RR powerplants being chosen - which RR needs don't they? Isn't the GP7200 whooping up the Trent 900 pretty well in Sales?


... Hardly!

Trent 900 - 53 firm orders + 31 Options

GP7000 - 42 Firm orders + 16 Options

with a further 10 aircraft up for grabs!

Cheers

Rez
 Wink/being sarcastic



Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
User currently offlineRojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2452 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3881 times:

If I remember correctly, the A340-600 will perform better with the new wing it will get that will be 1 ton less heavy!!!
The A346 is a little bit more heavy of what Airbus promised when airlines made their purchase orders, so a new wing was developed, but the first batch of 20 A346's will have the heavy wing. This should hurt a lot on the performance of the airplane. I know Iberia's first three A346 will have the heavy wing which will be a problem after they get all the frames.
I will guess SAA will retrofit the A346 with the new wing????

Rojo


User currently offlineHkg82 From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2002, 1297 posts, RR: 1
Reply 23, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3876 times:

This is great news for the A380 program, yet another potential customer. I think it's more likely than not that they will order the A380.

"He said SAA had asked Airbus to study the performance data of the mega-jet to see if it was also suitable for service to New York and Hong Kong, the airline's other long-haul routes. " (a portion of the article copied & pasted)

Well this is unexpected to say the least! Even by 2006 I would very much doubt SAA would be able to fill an A380 on the HKG service, cargo certainly, but passengers, it’s very unlikely. This route is well suited to the A346/747-size aircraft & Cathay already operates flights to JNB from HKG but hey, it’s not like I don’t want them to operate the A380 to Hong Kong, of course I do, but I just don’t see it happening.

I'm not sure, but is there going to be an A380C? If so, then an A380C on JNB-HKG could certainly be viable.

Hkg82.


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8114 posts, RR: 53
Reply 24, posted (11 years 6 months 4 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3842 times:

This is why the A380 is going to be a massive success. Every airline who operate 747s right now will need to replace those aircraft eventually. Why would they do it with more 747s, and all the limitations of old technology? Not to say that the 747 is a dog, far from it - but it's a little long in the tooth these days. Eventually every operator of the 747 will fly the A380, or get out of the widebody long haul flying business (unless Boeing build a new VLA from scratch, like they should have from the outset).


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
25 Na : Cedarjet, I must agree, unless Boeing revises the 744 massively (or the A380 suffers serious problems) its days as a bestseller are over forever. Sad
26 Frostbite : A look at SAA's (and codeshare partner DL's) websites show that eastbound JFK-JNB and ATL-JNB/CPT are again operating nonstop (with the exception of t
27 QatarAirways : A388, You can add another to your list. A recent article on the A380 said that Airbus will soon get an order for 10 A380's from a Middle Eastern carri
28 Arsenal@LHR : Notice that airlines are increasingly replacing their fleets earlier than planned. SAA plans to get rid of the 744's in 5 to 6 years time, and even by
29 Artsyman : Artsyman - it was refering to the 747 Classic needing 5 cockpit crew, not the 747-400. Don't forget that longhaul flights carry relief crew, not just
30 Gerardo : SailorOrion You are of course right: for SAA it's 22t less of fuel from JNB to JFK. Period! It would be just a bit false to say now, that an A346 uses
31 RayChuang : I wouldn't be surprised that SA orders about 10-12 A380-800's. People forget that the LHR-CPT/JNB route is a very popular route, and there are multipl
32 ConcordeBoy : Frostbite, a 744 is designed to haul roughly 400 people. The fact that SA fits their N. American longhaulers with mid-to-moderate 300s is a payload re
33 SAA201 : Artsyman wrote: What is the point of mentioning the classic ? it is not relevent at all, and then to mention the 5 man cockpit, it is also not releven
34 Artsyman : I understand that, but it is misleading. the article is very airbus vs boeing and therefore to be accurate needs to compare like for like. I understoo
35 Gerardo : I don't think, it was a pro Airbus article, but more an article pointing out the importance of the investments placed by ordering all those A343 and A
36 AvObserver : Gerardo says... "It would be just a bit false to say now, that an A346 uses x% less fuel than the B744 on any route, just based on this comparison. Ad
37 CX747 : I do think that the article was definately pro-Airbus. Obviously, the A340-600 is going to have better operating economics than a 747-200. Also, the 7
38 Post contains images ILOVEA340 : Maybe just maybe we may see an A340-600 in ZRH or an A380 ... I won't get my hopes up
39 Gigneil : "What is the point of mentioning the classic ? it is not relevent at all, and then to mention the 5 man cockpit, it is also not relevent." Artsyman,
40 CX747 : Greetings, how have you been. We've gone a few rounds on this one. I have no reason to lie, and I don't paste false information. Boeing is indeed goin
41 Gigneil : The 744 repair is substantially more expansive than many carriers will choose to make. We'll just have to wait and see on the 747-800. N
42 Buckfifty : The problem with the centre fuel tank is twofold. One is to find ways to prevent electrical arcing from wiring and components in the fuel tank, which
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