Cerulean From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 784 times:
I've been reading with great fascination about all of you who are (or at least claim to be) working in the airline industry. Not a day goes by without someone bemoaning the current sad state of affairs that exists today. Be it United possibly going under, or American's imminent Chapter 11 filing, or the Northwest Executive Bonuses. Whatever. I would like to respond in kind, with what seem to be the most common objections:
1.What is happening to the airline industry? Is it a critical part of our infrastructure or is it just another business like selling hamburgers and cars?
I would have to say that BOTH answers are correct. Our country is heavily dependant on the airlines to provide mass transportation of both goods and people from big towns to little towns and vice versa. The airlines are just as critical to our economy as the grocery store chains or the trucking companies. But if one goes out of business, what happens? The remaining ones will come in and fill the void. The loss of-say-United Airlines or Piggly-Wiggly Food Mart will be an inconvenience for some-but only temporarily. American and Kroger would move in to fill whatever hole(s) need filling.
2. The United States Government should bail out the airlines.
Why? So YOU can still have a job? Why should the taxpayers be forced to foot this bill? I would support tax breaks for the airlines, but not tax refunds. Even after the 3 day grounding, a one-time cash payout to cover lost revenues for those three days should be all the airlines are entitled to since they were shut down against their will.
3.Stability in the airline industry is crucial if the employees are to be able to live, prosper and save for retirement
Let's get one thing straight right now. The airlines are here to serve the fare paying public. NOT to provide you college-to retirement job and financial security.
What makes you think you're so special? You are not the only ones hurting. It has been true for a long time that there is no such thing as a "secure" job. In todays world of downsizing, outsourcing, and cost management, only those companies that can keep up with the times will survive. All of us as employees must do the same. A lot of people are out of work right now. And there is no such thing as being "wed to life" to an employer. Those days are long gone. You're going to have to learn to live with it just like the rest of us.
4. I can't believe that Northwest Executives gave themselves a bonus while handing out pink slips!
This really frosts your shorts doesn't it? I agree that this was a pretty chickenshit thing to do. But that's the beauty of being an executive. You do these things because.....you can.
If you feel that strongly about it, then earn your MBA and get into upper management.
MSYtristar From United States, joined Aug 2005, 5439 posts, RR: 55 Reply 2, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 755 times:
It's really like a catch 22 situation for me. On one hand, I love working in this industy...love everything to do with it really. Seeing any carrier go bust would be a terrible thing for me to see. But I can see where some people think it would be good for some poor-performing airlines to go under. Survival of the fittest so to speak. By having an airline like United go tango uniform (chapter 7), it would without a doubt shake up this industry. The loss of jobs would be tremendous, but from a business perspective, the industry on a whole would benefit. Unfortunately, the answer to 99 out of 100 questions is money. Most if not all decisions made today do not really take into account the employees needs. Every move is just business. A management professor of mine used toi say "you cannot bring your heart into business decisions...only your mind". It makes sense after you think about it. Just like in every other business, if the company does not have a vital business plan...or suffers due to poor decisions made in the past...it will suffer...and well, that's just the way it is. Sounds kind of heartless I know, especially since I have been through an airline stopping all service, and it killed me for awhile. But I got over it...I moved on....things like this hurt our spirit for awhile, but we can't let it stop us.
Regarding the statement about the NWA executives, you nailed it...they did because they CAN. They are not interested what anyone else thinks...they are big shots...they feel like they deserve this, which is very sad actually. It has always been that way in big buisness, and it will forever remain the same most likely. Some people get on a power trip, that's all there is to it.
The airlines industry certainly is an important piece of our the fabric of our nation. A piece that is wearing thin right now. Perhaps a good house cleaning is what this indutry needs in order to survive for the long term.
It is a shame that it ever had to come to this, but as it has been proven time and time again, life throws us all curveballs which we have to overcome. And we'll all be stornger once this "cycle in history" comes to an end.
Stephen in New Orleans
UA's 744 Y-class seat is more comfortable than DL's new 77L Y-class seat.
762er From United States, joined Feb 2001, 539 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 750 times:
Wow, that's pretty aggressive. You have to understand though that this forum exists so that we can talk about this industry that we love. I enjoy it whether we're complaining or telling stories or revealing news. I don't think you'll see a piggly-wiggly supermarket forum because that industry really isn't too exciting. The aviation industry is and many of us here live by it. When we have problems it's nice to be able to come to this forum and express them and get responses from just about every perspective. I know a lot of people here have helped me understand my current situation better and whenever I have a question, I post it here and sure enough I have a detailed answer within about half an hour. I understand what you're saying but I don't think there's anything wrong with stating your opinion. That's partly why the forum was created.
Cerulean From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 5, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 748 times:
Getting bashed for posting BS is one thing. But please, if you think anything I said is factually incorrect, then I'm all open to rebuke. I realize that to most airline employees, airline job security is the most important issue facing the world today, it being their livlihood and all. I understand all of that. But looking at it from an unbiased and practical versus a biased and emotional point of view is the point of this topic.
Tu154m From United States, joined Oct 2001, 629 posts, RR: 8 Reply 6, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 745 times:
To all...........
I work for a US major. I really don't give a flying F*&* anymore. Everyday when I go to work I hear more rumors and bad news. After awhile it brings you to a point where you just don't care. Our CEO just put away $25 million so he and his execs can have a golden parachute. WHO CARES. The whole industry is crap, and to anyone thinking of going into it, change your mind. The glory days are over. I'll always love commercial avaiation, just not wanting to be around it 24/7 like I used to.
Steve
M717 From United States, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 745 times:
Why bash him? It's the same typical uniformed stance that most of the general public takes. No need to bash someone simply because they are ignorant. Once he started talking about "bailouts", my interest in responding faded.
Either he's just ignorant, or is simply posting flame bait. Either way, it's not worth my time. Sorry.
Tu154m From United States, joined Oct 2001, 629 posts, RR: 8 Reply 10, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 723 times:
Oh yeah.....Piggly Wiggly. Believe it or not, there is one about 10 miles from my house!!!!! I hadn't seen one in years!!!! It looks kinda run down but it is open.....it's in Jackson, GA!!!!
Steve
TxAgKuwait From United States, joined Aug 1999, 1650 posts, RR: 53 Reply 11, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 672 times:
M717 writes, and i quote: >>"Valid? Not to me. To each his own"<<
I would be very interested in your assessment of which parts of his (Cerulean's) post were invalid.
I think he hit the nail on the head. of course, we've wandered around in thos parts before.
Airlines are in trouble.
Airlines are in trouble because they are losing money.
Airlines are losing money because they cannot charge enough for their product to pay the cost of providing it---costs of creating the product is higher than the amount of money the public will pay for it.
Teher exists the law of supply and demand, and you cannot get Congress to repeal it nor can you get the Supreme Court (or Diana Ross & the Supremes Court, nor even the Florida Supreme Court) to rule it unconstitutional.
Costs are high for a lot of reasons. During the era of regulation, it was "laissez les bon temps roulez".....employees wanted more money, they got more money, and cost increases were passed along in the form of higher fares. Of course, fares had less of an impact, since nobody could charge more nor less than the CAB-approved fare....of course a whole lot fewer people flew then. If we were still living in a regulated airline industry, a lot of current airline employees would be working in convenience stores and fast foods restaurants, since they would never have been hired, since the industry would not have grown as it has during the deregulated era.
Everybody wants to blame everything on airline management, and they have made some boneheaded decisions. HOWEVER, had they taken Nancy Reagan's advice and "just said NO" to outrageous 'industry leading contracts'.....it would have been interesting to see who would have prevailed (mgmt or organized labor).
The cost of a plane ticket, especially a short haul ticket, is expanded to outrageous levels by some of the taxation. The FIRST thing the government needs to do is to get rid of the segment, or leg tax. The airlines (except for WN) all lobbied hard to get this tax imposed, since they thought it would damage WN (the erstwhile low fare competitor). Things haven't worked out that way. If we just junked that tax, and let the airlines retain the revenue, it would be a good start. A $58 RT between El Paso and Phoenix costs me $78. Of that the airline keeps less than $54. The $134 round trip between Dallas and El paso nets WN about $112. Repealing the tax would allow carriers to do two things - either raise the fare to the level of price currently being paid by the passenger....which is revenue positive to the carrier but has no impact on demand, and make more money......or keep the fare the same, which is revenue positive to the passenger since he or she is not paying onerous taxes, which will stimulate demand. Either way it would work well.
But I have no clue as to what M717 could disagree with in Cerulean's msg. Facts are facts, truth is truth, and wishing something on a star does not necessarily make it so.
AWspicious From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 596 times:
"I work for a US major. I really don't give a flying F*&* anymore. Everyday when I go to work I hear more rumors and bad news. After awhile it brings you to a point where you just don't care."
"WHO CARES! The whole industry is crap..."
It's sentiments like that which concerns me. I'm not knocking the author, but, I'm concerned sentiments similar to those are increasing amount the rank and file within the aviation industry... Particularly within the airlines, themselves.
I can sympathize with the author and others who may have those feelings... after all, why should anyone give a shit about a company when that very same company doesn't seem to give a shit about you or it's other employees - Right? However, my concern is, with attitudes like that, it might just lead to a serious incident. al it takes is for the wrong person to pick the wrong time to "not give a damn" and there you have it - AirDisaster.Com
Now, I know many would say I'm over sensationalizing things, and I'd probably be inclined to agree... but, to a degree. When you have one person saying "I don't care, not my job" and the next person says the same thing... eventually, the domino effect occurs and... Well, I just hope nothing catastrophic happens. Airline employees need to feel important again so that they can regain the pride they once had when clocking in every day. I'm sure many airlines today probably could not survive an accident... Not in this economical climate.
Travatl From United States, joined Mar 2001, 2154 posts, RR: 16 Reply 13, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 561 times:
Well, my airline's profitable, and for the first time in a long time, I couldn't be happier to be where I am....
HOWEVER - I will say this. If you're so fed up with the industry and it's ways, why don't you see how far across the country you can go in your car for $99.....
AA717driver From United States, joined Feb 2002, 1565 posts, RR: 18 Reply 14, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 555 times:
Cerulean is paints a very stark picture of our business and is very frank about how we should view employment in this or any other industry.
Where he goes off the tracks is with executive compensation. He goes from telling us we are "meat" and gives no credit for experience in a particular business(which I contend is the problem with American business--no loyalty to your employer, everyone out for number one).
In the end he says if you are an executive, you can write your own paycheck regardless of whether you deserve it or not. The impotent boards of directors at the vast majority of corporations are supposed to oversee the operation of the company and represent the shareholders. Instead, they come to lunch every quarter, collect their checks and move on. They support inept management because they are former senior management themselves.
So, if I go out and get my MBA, suck and f*** my way to the top I, too, can rape...er, excuse me, reap the benefits of the succession of corporations I work for during my career?
Global Crossing, Enron, World Comm, et al, are symptoms of the virus infecting U.S. business since the late '60's. Once you have joined the "club" of senior management, you have to do something really egregous to get kicked out. Even Ivan Boesky, Michael Millikin and Charles Keating are still multi-millionaires. Keating sucked the money out of Lincoln Savings--leaving retirees broke. "Hey, you f***ed up. You trusted us."
Breach of Fiduciary Responsibility. Talk about wasted words.TC
Speedport From United States, joined Sep 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 492 times:
American and Kroger would move in to fill whatever hole(s) need filling.
Nice, neat and tidy, isn’t it? But wait a minute, what about competition? Isn't competition supposed to be a good thing? With less competition, won't prices rise? Wouldn't that be a bad thing? It depends on your point of view. If you are raping, as AA717 put it, it's a good thing. If you are being raped, it is a bad thing. I guess Cerulean sees himself in the former category.
So YOU can still have a job?
You're right. Why should the government be interested in preserving jobs? But wait a minute, what about the line "it's the economy stupid?" If you have a job, what does it matter if the other guy loses his, especially if you see yourself being able to profit from the others guy's misery? I guess Cerulean would fall into this category.
It has been true for a long time that there is no such thing as a "secure" job.
And this is supposed to be a good thing? I am not going to spend the time or bandwidth trying to explain cause and effect to someone who obviously isn't capable of understanding the concept. A stupid person gets massively drunk knowing they will have a massive hangover in the morning. A truly stupid person gets massively drunk, has a massive hangover, and says "that was fun, lets do it again tonight."
But that's the beauty of being an executive. You do these things because.....you can.
What does a 3,000 shower curtain have to do with someone trying to feed their family?
Cerulean, you're nothing more than a CEO Wannabe who has sacrificed your principles on the altar of corporate greed. To you it's OK if a CEO gives himself a 100 million dollar loan and then declares bankruptcy. But if an unemployed worker bee steals $10 in food to feed her children because she has no money, you have no problem watching that person sentenced to time in prison.
I think Three Dog Night said it best:
How can people be so heartless
How can people can be so cruel
Easy to be hard, easy to be cold
How can people have no feelings
How can they ignore their friends
Easy to be proud, easy to say no
Tu154m From United States, joined Oct 2001, 629 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 455 times:
I totally agree with you about the feelings of some making a lawn dart out of one of their company's aircraft. Remember the PSA BAe146 and the FedEx DC-10????? I can assure you that no matter how sick of it I become, I would never jeopardize the lives of any passengers, crew or mgt!!!!!!
Steve
Boeing764 From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 272 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (6 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 395 times:
I have always loved civil aviation and tried very hard, and succeeded in getting an airline job. It used to be a great place to work, but not anymore. I went through one merger and the employees of the company that bought us blame us for the current poor economic position the company's in. To an extent I don't blame them. Lots of people have been laid off including myself, I had to bump to a new city to keep my job, we are constantly working short staffed and the relationship between management and the employees is very tense. It's no fun anymore and I'm on my way out!
From Dr. King's America to Nelson Mandela's Africa, the journey of equality moves on.
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