Red Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4829 times:
Almost all departure fligths have been cancelled today and tonight due to late winter ice storm. GTAA claims that they are running out of de-icing fluid. A-month suppy of de-icing fluid has been used up in last twenty four hours. Due to lack of de-icing fluid in winter ice-storm situation, GTAA has to cancel all departures for safety.
for detail flight info, pls go to www.gtaa.ca
P.S. Speedbird 92 returned back to YYZ after departed.
Captaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56 Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4802 times:
Just checked the arrivals and departures pages on gtaa.com and it is truly a mess. I wonder how long this will last, and who will get fired for making such a bonehead decision that gets all flights cancelled!
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4575 times:
>>>I wonder how long this will last, and who will get fired for making such a bonehead decision that gets all flights cancelled!
Let me see if I have this straight... The airport is getting whacked by a late-season ice storm, such that they're going to run out of Glycol (if they haven't already), and cancelling flights is a -bad- idea? If not, the alternative is to let the flights keep on coming, but they can't get out. We call this the "roach motel" syndrome (they get in, but they don't get out), and it also can easily gridlock the airport to the point where nothing can phyiscally move. Canceling was absolutely the right call.
Brooms might work for DRY snow, but they're worthless against wet snow, slush, and/or freezing rain/drizzle/sleet, thus the need for chemical deicing...
Captaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 56 Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4551 times:
You got me wrong ... cancelling for safety reasons like they did is the right thing to do. Running out of glycol is not a good thing! I heard about the glycol much before it hit the news. Basically, they didn't anticipate any storms after the beginning of April. I would assume some bean counter found it too costly to have more glycol than necessary to de-ice aircraft after March 31st (look at my profile, I'm studying the science of counting beans). In the end, this will cost the airport and the airlines much more money. Conditions are bad, but they aren't bad enough that airplanes can't take off and land with proper de-icing.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
Lasbagman From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 367 posts, RR: 1 Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4493 times:
Globeground LAS has 2 airlines in BK:
Air Canada and Hawaiian Airlines, We do passenger check in , gates,ticketing, operations, ramp and baggage service for these carriers.
and we provided these service free of charge......
Slawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9 Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 4468 times:
Nothing is free...someone has to pay for that at some point...in any case Globe Ground is contracted to provide a service, and they are the only ones at YYZ who do it...so it is either them or the GTAA who will be on the hook for this one, depending on if the airlines have their contracts with Globe or GTAA...
"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4306 times:
>>>You got me wrong ... cancelling for safety reasons like they did is the right thing to do. Running out of glycol is not a good thing!
OK, now you've made yourself a little more clear... Indeed, running out is never good, but it may have occurred for several reasons, none of which may be "mistakes." Combine that with a late-season storm (and one that's more ice than snow), and that complicates matters further.
>>>Conditions are bad, but they aren't bad enough that airplanes can't take off and land with proper de-icing.
Unless one has had de-icing training, and is the guy out there in the bucket spraying the aircraft, that's hard to say. Frozen precip comes several varieties and intensities, and as I said earlier, more ice than snow is trouble, especially as far as "holdover" times are concerned. If the frozen precip was such that numerous flights were exceeding their holdover times, that equates to a bunch of aircraft the need a second (or third) de-icing, which mucks up planning of fluid inventory.
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4271 times:
>>>Are they talking about Runway deicer???
No, aircraft de-icing fluid...
>>>Why would you cancel operations before you ran out of fluid???
Based upon personal experience, if the airport has X-supply and needs 2X or 3X quantity, but we know additional deliveries are not forthcoming (due to icy roads, precluding its delivery to the airport), we'll start cancelling flights so as to avoid risking a "roach motel" situation as mentioned earlier.
C'mon springtime.... (At least the thunderstorms -move- and don't leave impaired field conditions behind....)
Red Panda From Hong Kong, joined Jun 2000, 1521 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 4264 times:
L-188, they are talking about the de-icing fluid used to spray on the wings, horizontal stabilizers and rudder prior to departure. The following is a news article from Toronto Star.
JOSH RUBIN AND ALLAN WOODS
A second biting ice storm blasted through southern Ontario earlier today, causing Air Canada to cancel all North American flights in and out of Pearson Airport. Winter-weary residents were told that the storm will reintensify this evening.
"The weather situation is further compounded by the temporary suspension of all de-icing activity due to the depletion of the airport's glycol supply affecting all carrier operations," the airline said in a news release.
Though the airline said it was hoping to maintain the schedule of international flights, it advised passengers not to go to the airport, but to contact the airline and rebook their flights.
A freezing rain warning remains in effect and most area highways and roads have restricted lanes. This afternoon, a weather warning predicted that the storm would resume tonight, punishing the city with more freezing rain and ice pellets, and end around mid-day Saturday.
All TTC surface routes are slower than usual.
GO Transit has numerous train delays, which can be seen at their Web site. After a few hours of relatively clear weather, the storm was expected to return this evening and continue through Saturday morning with snow, ice pellets and freezing rain.
Temperatures were expected to hover near -2 C on Friday and -3 C on Saturday as the weather system moves east.
Express service on Steeles Ave. E, Finch Ave. E, and Sheppard Ave. E has been canceled and Wheeltrans is also experiencing delays. "But the subway is perfect," TTC official Mike DeToma told The Star's Natalie Alcoba.
Ontario Provincial Police report no fatal accidents overnight, but there were fender benders and cars into the guardrail.
Constable Steve Smith of Toronto Police traffic services said many of the city's streets have yet to be cleared.
"Stay off the roads if you can," said a communications officer with York Region police.
Without de-icing, it's unsafe for aircraft to take off in freezing rain. Arrivals were affected because airlines didn't want their planes stranded in Toronto.
Between eight and 10 flights an hour were going through the airport this afternoon, said Peter Gregg, a spokesman for the Greater Toronto Airports Authority.
About 60 arrivals and departures is normal, he said.
The Greater Toronto Airport Authority's Web site said about 100 flights had been cancelled because of the storm.
"We don't expect to get back to normal until sometime tomorrow morning," Gregg said.
The Airports Authority said early this afternoon it had used its entire 700,000-litre supply of de-icing fluid - normally enough for 30 days of winter operations.
But Gregg said later in the day that more was on the way.
"Four trucks just arrived in the last half-hour," he said. "More trucks are on the way. We've got it coming in from New Jersey, Chicago, Montreal. The road conditions here have not played well with us."
The Airports Authority advised passengers this afternoon to expect restricted operations for the next 24 hours and advised them to check directly with their airline for flight information before going to the airport.
City officials scrambled yesterday to recall road-salting trucks and sidewalk plows to deal with a winter storm that snarled commuter traffic, and is expected to continue today with ice pellets and freezing rain.
Freezing rain made for slippery and dangerous driving during yesterday's morning and evening rush hours.
Last night, a 42-year-old Mississauga man died shortly after 6 p.m. when his car collided with a salt truck at the intersection of Winston Churchill Blvd. and Tradewind Dr., north of Derry Rd.
The car slid out of control, hit the centre median and careened into the oncoming lane, where it was hit by the salt truck.
"Most of the roads are not plowed. It's very, very bad out there," said Peel Constable Harry Tam.
Later, a woman was taken to St. Michael's Hospital with life-threatening injuries and her 9-month-old child was taken to the Hospital for Sick Children bleeding from the head after the vehicle they were in was hit by a salt truck at the intersection of Bloor St. W. and the East Mall.
The accident, which involved four vehicles and the salt truck, happened around 6:30 p.m.
One person died on Highway 401 at Northumberland County Rd. 30 near Brighton in an early-morning accident involving several tractor-trailers that shut down the westbound lanes for the entire day. And at about 11 p.m., a car ran into and toppled a hydro pole in the Lansdowne Ave.-Dupont St. area. Southbound Lansdowne was closed as workers dealt with the pole and hydro lines lying across the street.
No one was injured.
There were numerous other accidents on roads and highways around the GTA, although few were serious.
"We've had a lot of fender-benders, cars in the ditch," said Ontario Provincial Police dispatcher Tracy Ducharme.
"People are rushing spring. They're not driving according to conditions."
The poor road conditions cancelled some school bus service yesterday morning, including buses for the York Region District School Board.
City officials were caught off guard as the storm began since most of the equipment had been leased from private companies under contracts that ran out at the end of March.
Many of the former road salting trucks are already being used by their owners for other purposes, said Roberto Stopnicki, city transportation director.
"People have been very helpful and responsive when we've called, but some of the contractors have other obligations," he said.
Stopnicki said his department has recalled 60 per cent of its winter weather equipment - including 120 of 200 salting trucks and sidewalk-clearing machines - to cope with what he anticipates will be a brief-but-fierce cold snap.
"It's a challenge. It would certainly have been easier to deal with a month ago."
"The forecast talks about it going into Saturday," Stopnicki said.
"We'll be there for as long as necessary."
The toughest problem for Stopnicki will be clearing city sidewalks.
While the city owns almost 40 per cent of the sanding and salting trucks used for city streets, almost 80 per cent of the sidewalk plows are owned by private contractors.
"We might not be able to get to some of the local streets or the sidewalks. We'll be concentrating on the main roads, and anywhere there are bus routes," said Stopnicki, who warned that pedestrians and drivers should take extra care.
"With what we have, we're addressing the main roads, bus routes and any roads with hills," Stopnicki said.
Even getting the major routes cleared of ice will likely take longer than usual, he added.
Saturday's morning drive could be another slow and slippery one as Environment Canada's Andre Cyr said the ice pellets and freezing rain that began falling yesterday were expected to get worse overnight.
"The morning rush hour could be pretty bad,'' said Cyr.
Today's forecast high is minus 3C. Tomorrow, the Toronto area will likely get more ice pellets and freezing rain, but the temperature could rise.
In southwestern Ontario, the severe weather cut power to thousands of London-area residents.
London Hydro said 13,000 city residents were without power this morning.
Outside the city, another 30,000 customers were also without power and Hydro One officials said some might not see the lights come back on until Saturday. With files from Natalie Alcoba, Alex Furrer The Canadian Press and thestar.com staff.
Atpcliff From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 171 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 4037 times:
I fly a jet (& my wife happens to be from YYZ, which is why I read the article).
The fluid is also sprayed on the fuselage, in addition to the areas mentioned by Red Panda.
There is de-icing fluid, and anti-icing fluid.
I just flew into STC (St. Cloud, MN), where they had freezing drizzle. We picked up ice in the descent, and some on the ground. Brooms wouldn't have helped, as this was frozen precip stuck to the metal.
We were de-iced, which removes the accumulation of ice. If it was still precipitating, we would've had to get de-iced (to REMOVE the ice), and then sprayed with anti-icing fluid (to prevent new accumulations before takeoff). It gets very technical, but after being sprayed with anti-icing fluid, you have a certain amount of time that it is effective, and you need to take off before the ice starts to accumulate again.
If you are forced to wait too long, you need to come back and get de-iced again, and then anti-iced again, and hope you can make it off in time on your 2nd try.
YYZ has about the best and most thorough anti-icing program of any airport in N. America. They are very strict, and will not let planes take off unless they have been de/anti-iced. Other airports may leave it up to the pilots to decide if they need de/anti-icing-not YYZ.
TRY. It's all you have control over, and it's what God wants.
CX829 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3868 times:
This winter storm gave airlines such as AC and WJ a good excuse to cancel their flights because they do not make any economical sense. It costs some CDN $20,000+ to spray a plane at the CDF. AC loads are poor and WJ's profit margin is low. So, there you go.....
OPNLguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3824 times:
>>>This winter storm gave airlines such as AC and WJ a good excuse to cancel their flights because they do not make any economical sense. It costs some CDN $20,000+ to spray a plane at the CDF. AC loads are poor and WJ's profit margin is low. So, there you go.....
So, you're also saying that the YYZ airport folks were in on the "conspiracy", i.e. running out of Gycol?
BTW, where did you come up with your $20,000+ CDN figure to shoot an aircraft?
25 Dripstick: FYI CX829, major airlines would not use those tactics and $20,000? ... are they charging $50.00/litre? Seems rather high unless we're talking a B747 s
26 Chock head: YYZ has a "car wash" type of de-icing service where all aircraft regardless of carrier pull into a bay before the runway and get sprayed. It does seem
27 Slawko: Seems that Air Canada owes the GTAA a few million dollars in outstanding fees, and I understand they are taking the GTAA to court this week to have th
28 HlywdCatft: Hell even DTW didnt shut down during the ice storm Friday night. I heard the planes taking off all night Friday during the ice thunderstorm. Beware fo
29 CX829: >>>So, you're also saying that the YYZ airport folks were in on the "conspiracy", i.e. running out of Gycol? Did I say anything about conspiracy? If t
30 CX829: >>>FYI CX829, major airlines would not use those tactics and $20,000? ... are they charging $50.00/litre? Seems rather high unless we're talking a B74
31 Slawko: I've never heard so much BS in my life!!! YOu are actually saying that Air Canada cancelled all of its Domestic and Transboarder flying because they
32 CX829: To my knowledge, Sky did not cancel one single flight Fri or Sat. Why fly the planes if there's no money to be made? Like it or not, that's the truth.
33 CX829: ....or maybe CX829 sniffed all the glycol at Pearson so they ran out. Yeah ok SLAWKO. Now that's real BS
34 Captaingomes: I'm sure AC didn't cancel the flights for economic reasons. It was the GTAA that ran out of glycol, not Air Canada. Given that, this is a very slow ti
35 Red Panda: I heard from the media that AC had tried to keep their international flights running. The fact in the past few days are, not all flights are cancelled
36 CX829: I agree with you Captaingomes on the last statement. If Milton knows how to run the airlines, AC won't be in such bad shape the past few years. Now, t
37 Captaingomes: The crews will still get compensation though. There are many costs involved in cancelled flights, but they just might be lower than actually operating
38 9Y-ISA: hey, nobody mentioned why speedbird returned to YYZ after it took off?? someone must know something?
39 CX829: Absolutely. Crews will get credits if they reported for duty, otherwise, will be re-assigned or put on reserves. Korean had their B747 (cargo flight)
40 OPNLguy: >>>How much does US Aircraft Dispatchers know about the amount of de-icing fluid it takes to de-ice a plane covered by freezing rain??? About the same
41 OPNLguy: CX829, One other thing, re: that $20,000 CDN figure... At the current 1:1.47 exchange rate, that equates to $13,587 USD... Assuming a type-I deicing t
42 CX829: Cdn winter is a bit different from than that in the US. Type 1 is for De-Ice and then, there's type 4 to Anti-Ice. Not sure how your airline managed t
43 OPNLguy: Oh, we use type-4 alright, I justed used type-1 as an example. In any event, even if you double, triple, or even quadruple my earlier figures, you're
44 Dripstick: 100% glycol? No wonder they ran out so fast. Fully concentrated glycol is actually less effective than a mix due to a lower viscosity coefficient. No