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The Safety Of The MD-11  
User currently offlineDuke From Canada, joined Sep 1999, 1155 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5630 times:

It should be old news by now that the final report
on the 1998 crash of MD-11 HB-IWF of Swissair
(flight 111) at Peggys Cove is in: the crash should
be related to problems with wires installed for an
entertainment system.

My question: has anything been done to ensure that
other MD-11s (and other planes, for that matter) are
free of this defect?

P.S. - of the 4 other crashes of MD-11s, which, if any,
can be said to be in any way related to flaws in the
aircraft's design? is the MD-11, my favorite airliner, a
safe plane?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5590 times:

There are similarities in the other reports... mostly due to instability at landing.

This is something else MDD pioneered that Airbus now has right... software controls to allow for a smaller vert. stab.

N


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5559 times:

in addition to the 4 fatal M11 accidents on record... there have also been two nonfatal misshaps... both operated by FedEx, and both having to do with problems controling the trijet on landing: the first was this "backflip" accident at EWR, and the second was this submerging accident in the Bahamas.

Quite frankly, I'm surprised that there were no fatalities in either case!!!




User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5552 times:

And of course there was the FedEx M11 that crashed off Fiji with Tom Hanks and a few extras onboard.  Laugh out loud

Other MDD "innovations" Airbus has/is after include a variable voltage power bus, and high pressure hydraulics... but they have all the mistakes to learn from. We'll have to wait n see.

N


User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 5530 times:

Yes but he asked whether the wiring defects had been fixed and nobody answered that one. Have the wiring problems on the MD-11 been resolved??

User currently offlineDl1011 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 386 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5508 times:

I recall reading that the rest of the Swiss IFE systems were deactivated and that the company that produced the system has moved out of the IFE business.

Also, other articles have discussed the installation problems
found. Things such as long wire runs with no circuit breaker
protection and the IFE powered off of Essential Busses.

Any MD pilots that can comment on landing the beast? There seem to be problems in that area.


User currently offlineMD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5413 times:

Well, first of all, the use of Kapton wires is not limited to the MD-11's. Therefore, the question should be t"the safety of wiring on civil aircrafts"....

Yes, the M11 has been modified (at least the Swiss fleet) with an extensive package including devices to detect the location of a fire if it's "hidden" by the ceiling and the location of the backup flight instruments has been improved, based on lessons learned from the accident.

Concerning the landing of this plane, I'm not a pilot, but I had a couple of discussions to pilots, and they all can not understand the fuss some members on this board are producing. Or is the FAA sleeping again?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cheers, Thomas


User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 5389 times:

That FedEx in the drink happened in the Philippines, not the Bahamas.

User currently offlineWn700driver From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5347 times:

I always thought the saftey issue surrounding the M11 was with just the elements of a landing evolution.

I have often heard it reffered to as "The Scud" by its operaters for that reason.

The IFE stuff was news to me...


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 5346 times:

That FedEx in the drink happened in the Philippines, not the Bahamas

Correct you are. All I remember about it was "Freeport", and immediately thought "Bahamas!"... when in trugh, it was Freeport, Philippines

Silly me Big grin


User currently offlineLgbguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 5195 times:

The aircraft that crashed in Castaway was an A310!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The wiring was done by an outside contract firm which installed the entertainment system, not DAC in Long Beach.

The McDonnell Douglas pilots that I know, love the MD11 and say it was a great airplane to fly.

That's all I have to say about that.

lgbguy


User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5056 times:

The question here would be the safety of kapton wires. The INFE systems on Swiss's MD-11's were installed by a 3rd party company, therefore negating any blame at MDC for that. As far as I know, the MD-11 is just as safe as anything out there flying today-if it were not, it wouldn't have an operating certificate Big grin

Bryan




Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 35
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5032 times:

Does anybody know the exact reason for the landing accident of Mandarin at Kai Tak? Typhoon alone cannot be blamed as many aircraft landed safely before...

User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 5019 times:

Well.....just because aircraft have landed in typhoons before does not mean that it can be done 100% of the time without a problem. Inexperience of the crew can contribute. Back in the 1980's (I believe) a United 737 crashed in the Potomac River on departure out of Washington National, and the main factor that contributed to that was the crew's inexperience of cold weather conditions. Aircraft had departed before this one without a hitch...but adverse conditions, coupled with crew inexperience can be a big problem. Let me go do a little research in regards to the Mandarin MD-11, and I'll get back to you with a more-definitive answer.

Bryan



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 35
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5013 times:

Thanks Bryan! By the way, it was an Air Florida B737 diving into Potomac River...

User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 5013 times:

As originally thought by me (had to go back and read through this case again to refresh my memory), the Mandarin MD-11 crashed due to adverse weather conditions. As quoted from airdisaster.com:

"The aircraft crashed on landing in Hong Kong during Typhoon Sam. Just before touchdown, while landing with a 24-knot crosswind, the right wing struck the runway which caused the aircraft to cartwheel and slide down the runway upside down."

So basically what that inferrs is that the pilots were having control difficulties due to the high cross winds, and as a result of the wing hitting the ground, the aircraft won the gold medal in airplane gymnastics.

Bryan

[Edited 2003-04-08 18:43:48]


Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offlineN754pr From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4863 times:

The Mandarin MD-11 crashed due to a Massive down blast that funneled down the roof of the terminal onto the runway. That was the reason.

I saw the video of this aircraft on final approach and the flash of fire in the right wing before it burst into flames. Nothing looked wrong and then BANG...


User currently offlineTrnsWrld From United States of America, joined May 1999, 954 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

Any idea where we could see this video? would be very interesting to see.

User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 19
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 4776 times:

There was another accident at DCA in the 1980s where an aircraft mistook the Potomac for the runway at night and tried to land on the river.
I believe that too was a 737.

The wiring on the Swissair aircraft has been suspected of being the cause for a long time now. It was not installed by MD themselves but rather by another company that didn't follow the same QA standards.
At the time other MD-11s were checked for potential faults in the wiring and none were found.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineMD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4762 times:

"The wiring on the Swissair aircraft has been suspected of being the cause for a long time now. It was not installed by MD themselves but rather by another company that didn't follow the same QA standards.
At the time other MD-11s were checked for potential faults in the wiring and none were found."
******************

As far as I know, there were also original (MDC installed) wires found with signs of arcing on the kapton. The IFEN wiring was installed by a third party company. Just to clarify this.

Cheers, Thomas


User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 35
Reply 20, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 4748 times:

The fire on HB-IWF originated in the wiring overhead the front galley. There was an electrical short-circuit but the fuse did not pop out hence the power was not cut and caused the fire. The isolation mats around the wiring provided a basis to spread the fire towards the passenger cabin until the crew disconnected the aircondition, causing the fire to travel forward again.
As always, it was an unfortunate combination of several factors.
A clincher, however, was that the fire was not detected for quite a while, causing the crew to decide to dump fuel first rather than initiate an emergency descend and immediate (overweight) landing at YHZ.


User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 35
Reply 21, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4710 times:

For full information on ill-fated SR111, go to http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/1998/a98h0003/01report/index.asp

User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 4704 times:

The aircraft that hit the Potomac river on departure was an Air Florida 737-200 in January 1982. The crash was caused by one of the engine instrument probes icing up, causing the EPR gauge to overread. The pilots thought they had takeoff power set when in fact it was nowhere near it, so they stalled and crashed.

User currently offlineHmmmm... From Canada, joined May 1999, 2109 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4632 times:

An operating certificate doesn't mean that an aircraft is just as safe as all other aircraft. That certificate means that it conforms to a standard set of minimums. As in any industry, how far above minimums is determined by the manufacturer. The MD-11, as all other aircraft, conform to minimum standards set out by the FAA. How far above minimum standards is where the debate is found.


An optimist robs himself of the joy of being pleasantly surprised
User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8171 posts, RR: 54
Reply 24, posted (11 years 7 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4534 times:

Sure the Mandarin MD11 that crashed in HKG occurred during poor weather, but the FedEx crash at Newark was an identical crash, without the bad weather. There has to be a problem with the aircraft when two suffer identical accidents. No doubt that pilots like the aircraft, but possibly cos it's a challenge rather than cos it's smooth. What about the Koreanair MD11 that went down over Shanghai?

And the plane in Castaway was an MD11, the cockpit was DEFINITELY an MD11 and after it's in the water and Tom Hanks gets to the surface, he nearly gets swallowed by a still-turning engine (implausible I grant you). The engine that nearly stopped him from spending seven years working on his sun tan was on the tailfin. It was an MD11 (A310s don't cross the Pacific anyway).



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
25 Post contains images Unique : Cedarjet, movies make you believe everything!
26 Post contains links and images Cedarjet : Does this look like a stabilised final to you? And I wasn't even looking for a picture to go on this thread, I was browsing shots at Taipei while I wa
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