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USA Mulling Trade Lawsuit Against Airbus  
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 7380 times:

It seems that the USA has been keeping track of allegedly shady deals by Airbus over the past few years... and are now considering bringing them into litigation.

http://www.thestar.ca/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1035780540614

70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDeltaMD11 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 1701 posts, RR: 35
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7263 times:

Interesting. I can see where Boeing and the govt is going with this, and it will be a tought fight. I did notice that recently airlines have been getting big incentives to buy Airbus though (ie the EasyJet thing). May justice come to those who truly deserve it.

Bryan



Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7218 times:

Do Boeing really want this? As much as I love Boeing, I think there is a strong element in Boeing who are content to sit back with aged designs and react instead of being proactive, and rely on the usual Boeing buyers and government help rather than being innovative or developing products that desperatly need it.

The 747 NEEDS a new wing, new flightdeck, new engines, new interior 737NG-style. The 757 and 767 NEED replacing. Right now Boeing are umming and aaring over whether to even LAUNCH a replacement.

I don't think the problem is Condit or Mulally, after all they're both amazing engineers, responsible for the vast majority of Boeing's success over the last 20 years. However, there are t0o many people high up at Boeing who are accounts. Not willing to take risk to secure market share, with long term success neglected.

Of course, it's upto Boeing what its company objectives are. However, I feel that while the company has a "wait and see" policy regarding nearly EVERYTHING the commercial group does, Airbus will only continue to grow.

[Edited 2003-04-09 00:11:45]

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7160 times:

The 747 NEEDS a new wing, new flightdeck, new engines, new interior 737NG-style. The 757 and 767 NEED replacing.

The market will determine what Boeing "NEEDS", not an observer who thinks their designed are aged.

Boeing seems to believe that the 767/A300/A332 market will require a new aircraft around 2008, hence the 7E7. The lack of development for the 747/757 capacity slots suggest airlines are happy with the "aged" designs.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6659 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7148 times:

Your point about Boeing being more reactive than pro-active generally, is spot on,IMO.The conspicous nature of this mentality was best highlighted by the half-hearted attempt at pitching the 747-400'NG' models to existing 747-400 customers.Some synics aruged that the Sonic Cruiser was a reactive measure in response to the A380 launch but I don't really buy that given Boeing takes on the future nature of air travel ie the hub(Airbus)vs point2point(Boeing).Still,the creativity and proactioanry approach taken in projects such as the 777 need to be continued if Boeing want to remain level with Airbus.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7115 times:

the creativity and proactioanry approach taken in projects such as the 777 need to be continued if Boeing want to remain level with Airbus.

I agree. This hopefully is what the 7E7 is about.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGoboeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2683 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 7102 times:

It's about goddamn time.

Nick


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7056 times:

777236ER and Donder 10,

I understand your perspectives.

But I think that the problem is not that Boeing lacks creativity or energy compared to Airbus. Rather it is that Airbus cannot go out business. If someone could actually look at the ROI at Airbus, I would bet money that one would find many examples of 'moral hazard.' They can make investments and take gambles that Boeing cannot.

For instance, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group would have failed if the 747 had flopped. The company bet its existence again on the 777. Boeing has to be right. The carcasses of the Lockheed's and McDonnell Douglas's commercial divisions are still a fresh memory.

Boeing has to test the waters before it can truly launch a new model. That is why it makes announcments to gauge interest and then makes the decision to go forward. Perhaps if they did more of this behind the scenes than in the press, the perception of Boeing would change.


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7029 times:

The market will determine what Boeing "NEEDS", not an observer who thinks their designed are aged.

The lack of ANY orders in a market with a lot of aircraft is determining the problem! There are pleanty of 747-400 operators who need to replace their aircraft. Boeing can't sit on its ass waiting for Airbus to shrink the A380.

Boeing seems to believe that the 767/A300/A332 market will require a new aircraft around 2008, hence the 7E7. The lack of development for the 747/757 capacity slots suggest airlines are happy with the "aged" designs.

The lack of development may indicate that the airlines are happy, but remember Boeing were caught with its pants down with the 737-400 and others such as the 747-300 and it can't afford to do that again. The A320 was a huge blow for Boeing. Thank God the market was big enough to support the 737NG when it finally appeared.

But I think that the problem is not that Boeing lacks creativity or energy compared to Airbus. Rather it is that Airbus cannot go out business. If someone could actually look at the ROI at Airbus, I would bet money that one would find many examples of 'moral hazard.' They can make investments and take gambles that Boeing cannot.

I agree, I'm a staunch Boeing supporter and this is certainly an issue. However...

For instance, Boeing Commercial Airplane Group would have failed if the 747 had flopped. The company bet its existence again on the 777. Boeing has to be right. The carcasses of the Lockheed's and McDonnell Douglas's commercial divisions are still a fresh memory.

....the market is very dynamic. Boeing HAS to take risks in order to survive. This isn't any run of the mill business. Investment now won't see any kind of revenue for at least 5 years. Yes, the market is not good right now, but it's been like that before. Boeing can't sit around and expect to come into a market 5 years later than Airbus and have 777-style success. The 777 was a success because it is a great aircraft, and this ofset the delay of its entry into the market. As technology progresses and Boeing becomes more and more shortermist, it's going to be very hard for Boeing to constantly play catch-up to Airbus and constantly try to out do them technologically.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7019 times:

777236ER,

I agree that Boeing absolutely must take risks to compete. I did not mean to suggest in anyway that the should not. However, the Rasputin-like qualities of Airbus means that any risk Boeing takes is magnified beyond the ordinary market, engineering, and other risks that would be associated with an aircraft project.

What I am saying is that to some extent, Boeing is doing exactly what it has to do given the risk profile it faces. Perhaps it could take on more risk but I suspect not much more.


User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2073 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7008 times:

Can't see American farmers willing to show much support for Boeing!

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 7008 times:

I often wonder why the USA would rather get mad than get even?

A lot of merit could be placed in such allegations as Airbus using slots to lure carriers (MH) and other such action...... why not have the Feds do the same? It's not like they arent wrapped around Boeing's pinkie anyways.

I.E., a carrier wants into JFK/MIA/LAX... a nice 757/767 order to pick of lagging sales should help. An airline wants 5th freedoms? How about a new 744ER to go with it? Get my point?


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 6999 times:

CB,

I think that would be harmful for free trade and a bad idea. (As much as I would like to Airbus and France put in solitary confinement for a few years). The Congress tried tying DCA slots to an airplanes country of origin. It gave the DOT discretion to consider this aspect. Luckily, this authority was never exercised. Tying slots to Boeing sales would really screw things up and force airlines to make economically distorted decisions.

Incidentally, I would bet the number 1 and 2 non-RJ/non-prop airliners at DCA are the 319/320. Between US, UA, NW, AC, HP, and Frontier, there are tons of 319/320.


User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6976 times:

If it's true that France has given landing slots only because of Airbus orders, they could probably continue to do so for some years until they've reached the 4 billion Europe has been allowed to sanction over US companies.

If you take a look at the WTO disputes, by far most of the disputes are filed against the USA.

Nevertheless, if France is supporting Airbus in this way, it has to stop and they should better stop it before a dispute is filed. Airbus needed help to start, but by now it doesn't need any help.

[Edited 2003-04-09 01:57:30]

User currently offlineFlying_727 From United States of America, joined Jun 1999, 435 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6963 times:

Has anyone else noticed all the dirty things the French have been up to lately. Its all coming clear to me now. They sell weapons from Iraq, then refuse to fight, then bribe airlines plus much much more. I hope the FAA prevents Airbus aircraft to enter U.S. airspace.

Flying_727


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6959 times:

If it's true that France has given landing slots only because of Airbus orders, they could probably continue to do so for some years until they've reached the 4 billion Europe has been allowed to sanction over US companies.

There were similar allegations that Embraer in concert with the Brazilian govt dangled Brazilian landing rights to CO in return for its initial ERJ order (against competition from Bombardier).





Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 6953 times:

They sell weapons from Iraq, then refuse to fight, then bribe airlines

....and then they want a lead-role in the reorganization after the fight they tried so diligently to prevent  Laugh out loud


But seriously,
N799- 'twas only rhetoric.  Big grin

Though, I do seriously see how a case can be made for what the USA is planning on doing.


User currently offlineFlyboy_se From Sweden, joined Feb 2000, 810 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 6922 times:

What happened to all the normal people in this forum.
Did everybody get brainwashed by Mr Bush.
never knew that such a stupid man could influence so many people



I prefer to be crazy and happy rather than normal and bitter
User currently offlineANA777master From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6898 times:

What company is unsophisticated enough to name their aircraft an "airbus"? My colleagues who fly them think the name is asinine and unintelligent.

User currently offlineGD727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 925 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6875 times:

Has anyone else noticed all the dirty things the French have been up to lately. Its all coming clear to me now. They sell weapons from Iraq, then refuse to fight, then bribe airlines plus much much more. I hope the FAA prevents Airbus aircraft to enter U.S. airspace.

Amen to that!!  Big thumbs up

Seriously though, it's about time somebody stands up to Airbus and their sneaky, underhanded nature!

-GD727



Mmmm forbidden donut.
User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 6863 times:

You make your colleagues sound like silly children.

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16825 posts, RR: 51
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6821 times:

It's about time the Government help Airbus gets (and has been getting) is addressed, if they want to be a "real" company than they better start acting like one.

Like making decisons based on sound economics, not Nationalism or Socialism.






Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16825 posts, RR: 51
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6798 times:

If (If) Airbus and the EU does not address the issues of their unethical and illegal business tactics there's one weapon the US could use that would hurt Airbus.

The US could simply not certify the A-380, meaning the A-380 would never be certified to operate from US Airports.

That would not effect US carriers, but hurt Airbuses biggest clients for the A-380 (Virgin, Singapore etc) who would not be able to use the aircraft for flights to the US or US territories.




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineBWIA 772 From Barbados, joined May 2002, 2200 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 6776 times:



I honestly think that Boeing needs to take risk. I hope that the 7E7 is as economical in operating as it is on paper. Boeing should use this aircraft if successful as the new platform from which all its products are based. Well actually the 777 seeing that the 7E7 will most likely use innovations brough about by the 777 but I assume technology has progressed alot since the 77 was first built.

For example the next 737 replacement should cater from the 120 market right up to the 753. This 737 replacement should also be a wider in diamiter than the current 737 to facilitate the use of cargo pellets ( thats what they call them right) and offer a more spacious cabin which is comfortable with wider seats and central isle not to mention the additional over head storage space that can be accomodated.

For the 747 I think they need to get a big blank paper or if they are going to be really modern by a nice new hard drive so that they can build a new 747 based on the 777 that is at least 10% more economical than the current 747.

Boeing really needs to Bring it on and strive to make aircrafts as successfuly as the 777 and they would have the french on their toes. Boeing needs to talk te talk and walk the walk. To me thats a way of dealing with it



Eagles Soar!
User currently offlineMagyar From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 6771 times:


If the US is so damn concerned about free trade then why it does not
comply first with all the WTO rulings against it?

If the US is so clean how it is possible that it lost more WTO cases than
the bad EU?

And why giving slots for orders is worse than reminding your costumers
who defends their country (El Al, Air China order)?


25 STT757 : Because the US has been less willing in the past to "rock the boat" thus starting a trade war, the French and EU knew this and acted accordingly. The
26 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : If the US is so clean how it is possible that it lost more WTO cases than the bad EU? ...because its GDP and capital involved with/in international tr
27 Hamlet69 : Racko and Magyar, I'm not going to get involved with another thread about what is 'legal' or not, or what is 'right.' However, before you get righteou
28 AirDD : It is not like Boeing is without any sins... US government is helping Boeing a lot : 767 tanker lease is used to keep the 757/767 production line bec
29 Cloudy : In the past, Airbus appeared to take more risks than Boeing and appears to be more innovative for one reason. Airbus was entering the business and Boe
30 Post contains images Magyar : Hamlet69 >> the one you are assuming it to be. In the past, the U.S. has preferred to deal directly with the nations it has a dispute with rather than
31 Hamlet69 : Magyar, "The useful thing in such ''direct dealing"-s is that the outcome tends to favor you if you are the strongest kid in the bloc, regardless whet
32 Cloudy : The useful thing in such ''direct dealing"-s is that the outcome tends to favor you if you are the strongest kid in the bloc, regardless whether you a
33 Joni : There's been talk and talk of Airbus' purported evil practices. There so far has been no complaint filed in the WTO. So if they think they have an is
34 Flying_727 : Here is a continuation from my previous list of the things the "Dirty French" have been engaged in feel free to add more! Refuse to help remove Saddam
35 4holer : I sincerely hope that my European friends read Flying_727s profile and consider the age bracket before you assume that his thoughts are widespread amo
36 747-451 : "Naturally Airbus' margins would be even healthier if it could charge double price for its planes (like Boeing is doing for the 767s). " Now who's hur
37 SwissA330 : Flying 727: There must be an error in your profile... No way your are a high school student already. Your Comments reveal your true age... If you want
38 Petertenthije : Usually, a trade partner can do a heck of a lot more to harm US interests than the US can REALISTICALLY do to harm the trading partner's interests. Th
39 Gigneil : First, the US has to prove its case. Good fucking luck. The EU will simply throw back Taiwan as a major incident of the US leveraging political power
40 AvObserver : This was the subject of a long-standing U.S. congressional investigation I'd posted links to so I wouldn't be surprised to see it go forward. Incident
41 N79969 : "The EU will simply throw back Taiwan as a major incident of the US leveraging political power and threats and it'll wash out." No it won't. I have ex
42 Flying_727 : I would like to thank all you who attacked me back for proving my point. You can all sit here and say what you truly feel, while many in the world can
43 N79969 : Flying 727, You crossed the line in reply 34.
44 Gigneil : Let me rephrase. The rest of the world, except for England and Australia. The other major powers of the world denounced the action entirely. I persona
45 Cloudy : Petertenthije, Cuba was indeed once a rich country. Sanctions and communism came at more or less the same time, which may be why you are misjudging th
46 Post contains images GKirk : Yawn Yawn, whine whine. This is one of the most stupid things I've heard. However if it happens maybe some of the Euro airlines should sue the US for
47 MD-11 forever : ... wise words GKirk........... And to "Flying_727", who really thinks it would help the US to not certify the A380 ("doesn't hurt the us, but the big
48 Post contains images Sabena 690 : Guys, don't let you impress by Flying_727. As a lot of other extreme right republicans over here, he still needs to grow up and learn to see things in
49 ConcordeBoy : The pressure on Taiwan and Israel was absolutely proper and justified because it involved the state-owned carriers of those countries Agree completely
50 FrankyA340 : BORING............. Do you think we have THAT much time to read your overwroght posts.... Keep the soap boxes in the garage please.
51 Cloudy : Yawn Yawn, whine whine. This is one of the most stupid things I've heard. However if it happens maybe some of the Euro airlines should sue the US for
52 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Do you think we have THAT much time to read your overwroght posts.... Well, if you're responding... then obviously, yes (PS, real dumbass statement th
53 IndustrialPate : I'm not a fan of the Airbus vs. Boeing war, nor am I a fan of persons posing as Boeing commericals.
54 Post contains images Going64 : Forbidding Airbus in the US, the same for Boeing in Europe.... Let's build an air strip in the middle of the Atlantic where travellers from Europe to
55 Joni : So when the US pressures countries to buy Boeing jets, that's proper, but when the EU pressures countries to buy Airbus jets, that's improper? These
56 Teva : The Easyjet Airbus order for slots in Orly ???? The most ridiculous thing I have heard!!! Yes, I know, it has been reported by the press (the same who
57 BestWestern : And what about Ryanairs great deal with Boeing..... So good that o'leary stated that he raped them.... From the posts above, it seems that its terribl
58 AvObserver : BestWestern says... "Why do so many americans have a "not created here" syndrome about Airbus?" It's not for me a "not created here" syndrome but rath
59 Wingman : Why bring a lawsuit when it would be so much more elegant to just mimic the French plan from scratch? Boeing and the US government simply transfer BCA
60 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : It's not for me a "not created here" syndrome but rather a "can't raise all development capital privately" syndrome along with a "won't be allowed to
61 Joni : Wingman, The corporations participating in the "economic enterprise" still do pay taxes and post annual reports like everyone else.
62 747-451 : "So when the US pressures countries to buy Boeing jets, that's proper, but when the EU pressures countries to buy Airbus jets, that's improper? These
63 Wingman : That's correct Joni. Boeing, Northrop, Mitsubishi, China Aircraft etc etc would continue to operate as legitimate businesses. However, the actual busi
64 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : the US government does not pressure its carriers or others to buy Boeing... I'm one of the biggest Boeing fans there is... but even I'll tell you that
65 N79969 : ...and I am glad that the US pressured the state-owned carriers of two countries whose existences are dependent on US aid and military protection were
66 AvObserver : Why shouldn't the U.S. pressure carriers to buy Boeing the way E.U. nations pressure to buy Airbus? What's good for the goose is good for the gander,
67 Lj : And Easyjet had to wait for the collapse of Air Lib to get slots. And they got only around 7000 instead of their 40000 ... And they have to sue the Fr
68 Delta-flyer : " ...and I am glad that the US pressured the state-owned carriers of two countries whose existences are dependent on US aid and military protection we
69 Post contains images Petertenthije : Are we that big over there? I never realized that! Anyway, I suppose the argument still stands for other less wel-off nations. And I am also still wai
70 Post contains images Bobrayner : Hmm... Personally, I think this is the pot calling the kettle black. I strongly believe that both the USA and the EU economies - and their air travell
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