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Interesting Article About Song  
User currently offlineI LOVE EWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 852 posts, RR: 8
Posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2714 times:

Found this today...

http://www.usatoday.com/travel/news/2003/2003-04-14-song.htm

Should be interesting

35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2690 times:

So they are ripping off Southwest and jetBlue. Way to go song!  Yeah sure

User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2695 times:

The proof will be in the pudding. If Song delivers the CASM it is promising, then it will be a sure winner. If they can't, then it will be another also-ran. I used to be a lot more optimistic until I started reading some of Selvaggio's marketing bullshit lately.

User currently offlineFrequentFlyKid From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1206 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2659 times:

KROC - I don't understand you apparent resentment. Maybe I am overlooking the sarcasm, but competition is a good thing. A very good thing.

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4488 posts, RR: 33
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Song isn't about competition, it's about destroying competition. If high-quality low fare carriers weren't eating Delta's lunch, Song wouldn't exist. Pax would pay higher fares, even to low-yield Florida. If anything happened to JetBlue, you can be sure those ugly lime-green planes would be painted back into Deltaflot colors so fast it would make your head spin.

Fortunately, JetBlue is extremely well managed and has earned strong passenger loyalty. If anything, Song might take a few points of market share, and both will probably make money at somewhat smaller size. Listening to Selvaggio hype fun is like listening to Dilbert's pointy-haired boss hype fun, though. It's fake and only being done because they're forced to.

Given JetBlue's better-than-Song cost structure, they could (and probably will) match Song's few additional gimmicks with ease.

Support the reformers. Go JetBlue!

Jim



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16245 posts, RR: 56
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2572 times:

If Song delivers the CASM it is promising

I think that's why they're using the 752. With high loads, the CASM should be good. Obviously, the financials with Delta Express using the fully depreciated but smaller 732's did not work out.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6521 posts, RR: 51
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

I still feel that the 752's are too large for some of those routes on a year-round basis. Personally, I think 738's that were once used by Delta Shuttle would have been a better idea. 160 seats is a lot easier to fill than 199 on a consistent basis. Just my 2 cents...but there's no way those flights will go out full everyday...not a chance. Nifty idea and all, but I give Song six months, tops.


Steve in NOLA


User currently offlineScottysAir From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

I think this is very best idea for reduce from B752 to B738 on the Song. I wondering that might to take best choice for used with Song. I think that should be kept on the B757-200 aircraft on the those route. Well, talk ya later!

User currently offlineChepos From Puerto Rico, joined Dec 2000, 6205 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2432 times:

They are so into the women being our target customer gimmick I'm surprised they didn't follow Skymarks (Japan) idea of a women only cabin.
Chepos



Fly the Flag!!!!
User currently offlineBrett80211 From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 266 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

I cant wait to fly Song....-Brett

User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1781 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2362 times:

OK wait a minute..........according to the article Song is more expensive than Jetblue, the seats are narrower than Jetblue, you can take less bagagge than Jetblue, the cocktails are more expensive and the seat pitch is less than Jetblue.

Am I missing something here?

****************************************
How Song, JetBlue compare

Song
JetBlue

Lowest round-trip fare{1}
$375
$265

Domestic fare range one way
$79 to $299
$49 to $299

Free checked baggage allowance
2 up to 50 lbs. each
3 up to 70 lbs. each{2}

Seat spacing (back of seat to back of seat)
33 in.
32 in.

Seat width
17 in.
18.5 in.

TV channels
24{3}
24

Cocktail prices
$5
$4



Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2320 times:

DCA-ROCguy,

I normally agree with a lot of what you say, but I have to take strong exception to your take on Song...

Delta has recognized that the industry is changing and is trying to do what is expected of any company in a capitalist economy - compete. It's odd that you continue to attack Delta for starting Song in the interest of competition because it seems that it's competition that you admire.. does it always have to be a David vs. Goliath situation?

You posted a doom-and-gloom prediction of what would happen if jetBlue didn't exist (that Delta mainline would swoop back in and raise fares). I think you, I, AND Delta all know that low-fare carriers are here to stay.. they may not all be orange, blue, or carry tangy ATC names, but things have obviously changed in a way that (for most cities) doesn't threaten the notion of reasonably priced air travel. If jetBlue failed, another one would start.. Why? Because people with lots of money have realized that the only way to reliably make more money in this industry is to a) provide a good product for a very reasonable price and b) control costs in order to maintain that reasonable price. Southwest, jetBlue, and AirTran have all proven that the formula works - why can't Delta change with the times to compete as well?

Corporate history is filled with stories of companies that significantly changed the way they do business as a response to market forces.. why can't Delta?


User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2310 times:

>>Southwest, jetBlue, and AirTran have all proven that the formula works - why can't Delta change with the times to compete as well?<<

Delta isn't competing, so much as trying to stifle the competition. DCA-ROCguy is right. Once JetBlue, Southwest, and/or AirTran are out of picture, just how long do you think it will be before Song quietly exits the picture and those 757s are painted back in Delta colors and DAL is back to 1500+ for a round-trip ticket? Delta is not innovated, to the contrary. They can't think up an original idea, so they have abolish the competition.

Look how quickly the internet innovation cooled off when Microsoft was the only game in town. Netscape was a far superior product, but Microsoft gave away their browser, built it into the OS, and practically paid people to download their browser. Now, I'm stuck using a browser than can *maybe* launch an animated gif without crashing. Song is the same thing.

Don't get me wrong, if Song was a brand-new *INDEPENDENT* company I would be wishing them the best of luck. The only purpose for Song is a huge club for Delta to slam their competition out of the park so they can be the only game in town. If I were in the DOJ, I would take a long and hard look at Song. This is bordering on the verge of anticompetitive practices and monopolistic practices.

If Delta wanted to compete more effectively, they should focus on improving their mainline product. They don't and thus, they won't.

- Neil Harrison



User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

I actually have an entirely different take. I think Delta's reformation as a limited service, low fare carrier is likely the beginning of the end of "mainline" service as we know it.

Specifically, start looking for airlines to abandon any market that can't handle at least a 737. RJs? Forget about it -- there simply won't be much of a market for it -- the operating costs of the RJs are too high.

In short, people will only operate what can be flown cheap -- and that won't be connecting Durango, Colorado to Wichita, Kansas.

And customer loyalty will drop to near zero -- typical for a pure commondity. People will have a preference, but they'll change to save 50 cents.

Steve


User currently offlineKohflot From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

Again, any argument that relies on the demise of low-fare carriers and a mass return to high fares is only an emotional one.. because, again, if this group of successful low-fare carriers were to fail, there would be more to replace them. The market has changed.. people expect lower fares than they've historically paid. Quite simply, Delta has decided to market Song as their response to those changes.

What exactly is Song doing that's anticompetitive? Do you REALLY think that low-cost carriers are going to pull a Dodo bird because Delta has decided to steer in this direction?

Don't get me wrong, if Song was a brand-new *INDEPENDENT* company I would be wishing them the best of luck.

Which seems to get to the heart of the issue here.. and I'll ask the question again, why can't Delta compete? It's odd.. instead of being cheered as a major airline taking the lead to keep its planes flying, its employees employed, and its stock worth something, Delta is being ridiculed for being 'anticompetitive'...


User currently offlineSearpqx From Netherlands, joined Jun 2000, 4343 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2292 times:

I think you're missing the point. LCCs are here to stay. I don't argue that if there were no market forces making them change, DL, UA, AA et al would continue down the path that they've been navigating since deregulation. But (as Jim is the first to point out) the market has fundamentally changed, and DL has recognized it. While Leo may fantasize about driving Jet Blue out of business, he and the rest of the folks at DL are realistic enough to realize that even if B6 goes way, there will be an Air Purple, or a JFK 'r Us or a (insert catchy name here) airline created to take their place. So while the fantasy goal may be to force B6 out, the actual (and perhaps attainable) goal is simply to find a new way to compete, and hopefully survive.


"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
User currently offlineJhooper From United States of America, joined Dec 2001, 6202 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Where can I read the "Selvaggio's marketing bullshit?"
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noteworthy quotes from the article:

All-coach Song will match Southwest's maximum fare and make funny flight announcements.

Now THAT'S funny! Let's copy Southwest by making funny announcements!

You can't pick up a press release without Song telling you how cool and hip they are.

--Jetblue Spokesperson

---------------------------------------------------------------------------



(By the way, The Microsoft case(s) were about much more than the browser)

[Edited 2003-04-15 04:14:32]


Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4488 posts, RR: 33
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Delta has recognized that the industry is changing and is trying to do what is expected of any company in a capitalist economy - compete. It's odd that you continue to attack Delta for starting Song in the interest of competition because it seems that it's competition that you admire.. does it always have to be a David vs. Goliath situation?

You're right, Kohflot, it is financially rational for Delta to start Song. But I'm not convinced it's about "compeition" in the sense of trying to keep low fares available in and of themselves.

The network carriers have a history of brutality to protect their economic structures, a recent history that I'm not willing to forget just yet. Southwest is almost certainly beyond the reach of predatory attacks by now, but I'm not convinced that JetBlue or AirTran are yet. I could well be wrong, but figure it's better to risk error on the side of history for now.

people with lots of money have realized that the only way to reliably make more money in this industry is to a) provide a good product for a very reasonable price and b) control costs in order to maintain that reasonable price. Southwest, jetBlue, and AirTran have all proven that the formula works - why can't Delta change with the times to compete as well?

Remember that Delta still predominantly provides a different higher-cost network product. There will always be a certain amount of demand for the network product, which serves two vital needs the low-fares don't--international and small-city connections.

I figure the low-fares could carry between 60 and 70 percent of USA traffic. But for now they still have 20 percent, and that's small enough for the network carriers to make life miserable for them. Also, Song is geared only for large markets, and is aimed at carriers that bring low fares to medium and smaller markets.

Delta's 199-seat 757's can only serve the big markets that are a cash cow for carriers like JetBlue and AirTran. We won't be seeing Song from Rochester or Akron to MCO, but we do have AirTran with its 118-seat 717's flying those routes. We have an interest in seeing JetBlue and AirTran strong and healthy.

Corporate history is filled with stories of companies that significantly changed the way they do business as a response to market forces.. why can't Delta?

Delta is only changing *where they have to,* and are trying to prop up high fares wherever they still can. The network economic model will always be fundamentally in some tension with the low-fare model, so network carriers always represent a danger to carriers that limit the reach of that model.

Jim


User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4488 posts, RR: 33
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2240 times:

Delta is only changing *where they have to,* and are trying to prop up high fares wherever they still can. The network economic model will always be fundamentally in some tension with the low-fare model, so network carriers always represent a danger to carriers that limit the reach of that model.

To further answer your point about the agreed-upon fundamental change in the industry, Kohflot, I remain concerned until the low-fares reach about 45 or 50 percent of the USA market. People are indeed demanding low fares to markets that can economically support them, which is the majority of volume in the USA.

Getting from here--an 80 network/ 20 LCC industry to a say 55 LCC/ 45 network industry--is still a road that seems dangerous to me. Again, I could be wrong, and you are right to point out that a lot of economic forces are lining up in favor of the low-fares. But there's nothing like a threatened vested interest that wants to protect its cash cow.

So I figure it's safer to keep piling on the network carriers for now, and pointing out the dangers they still present to the low-fares.

Jim



User currently offlinePilot1113 From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2333 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2204 times:

>>Which seems to get to the heart of the issue here.. and I'll ask the question again, why can't Delta compete?<<

If Delta really wanted to compete and make a better company, ol' Leo would reform mainline Delta from the bottom up. Song is not that reformation.

Making an entirely new company, while leaving the old one to wither, reeks of antitrust. Just look at Song, it all points to quashing their competition. How does it help mainline compete more effectively? It doesn't.

>>(By the way, The Microsoft case(s) were about much more than the browser)<<

I wasn't talking about the case -- I was talking about how Microsoft's tactics stifled innovation. Progress in the internet hasn't made nearly as much advances as when MS and Netscape were battling it out.

- Neil Harrison


User currently offlineFanoftristars From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1604 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

Since when does an A320 have an 18.5 seat width?

Northwest's A319s have 17.2" width

United's A320s have an 18" width
(According to SeatGuru.com)

So, if JetBlue has an 18.5" width, their isle would have to be 3 inches narrower than United's. (I can assure you they don't, I've flown jetblue 4 times and there's no way in hell I had that much room to work with)

Just pointing out that this writer didn't take the time to do their homework.

Most likely Song's measurements were between armrests, and jetblue's measurements were from centerline to centerline. The A320 does have a wider seat, but there's no way it's 1.5 inches wider. The cabin is only 7 inches wider than the 737 & 757.



"FLY DELTA JETS"
User currently offlineAcvitale From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 922 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2119 times:

I have to weigh in here....


I must agree that Song is purely reactionary. I also believe that Delta made another in a chain of critical mistakes. With Song and it's head to head attack against Jet Blue I think that we will soon see Jet Blue in ATL.

Further I believe that Delta will be the inevitable loser in the war.

How can that be when Delta had 500+ aircraft and billions compared to little ole Jet Blue and Air Tran..

It is simple... Delta's management is out of touch. These are the same baffoons that asked congress for a bailout while setting up a compensation package that was rediculous while bleeding money and had been warned it would backfire.

They are the same fools whom forget that JetBlue is more then just seatback video but, It includes customer service. (Something that a demoralized workforce generally fails at). Heck Song is a recipe for passenger abuse.

So paint some 757s butt ugly lime green and change the seats a little bit then add a gee whiz entertainment system and hope for success..

Delta is mediocre. It has slowly but surely alienated its elite flyers. It cannot match Jet Blue with product or Air Tran with price or either with service.

Delta management is greedy and short sighted.

I hate to say this but, Delta will go the way of United, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA. Remember the bigger they are the harder they fall. Delta used to be exceptional. That died with leadership 7.5 and has never been seen since.

My .02
ACVitale


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6578 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2102 times:

Getting from here--an 80 network/ 20 LCC industry to a say 55 LCC/ 45 network industry--is still a road that seems dangerous to me.

Problem is that if we get to that kind of ratio, the network carriers will not survive. If the LCC's have 55% of the market, the only routes left for the majors will be routes like Fargo to Bangor. Unfortunately, routes like that cannot sustain a network carrier. They need some of the high volume routes in order to survive.

However, the LCC's only want to skim off the high volume routes and not be bothered providing a full network of services.


User currently offlineTrey From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 250 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2097 times:

You all (or most of you all) are completly nuts and have given little, if any, thought. I especially like the guy that said Delta is just doing this to put jetBlue out of business. So I guess Pepsi was intent on putting Diet Coke out of business when they launched Diet Pepsi? The answer of course is yes. Any fool that thinks any firm wants competiton is not very business smart and hence that is why they are posting their thoughts on this site as opposed to running a business. In an ideal climate, monoploies are every business's dream. In simpler terms, do you like to go out on sat. night and see 40 guys and 3 girls at the bar or the other way around? I think it is also important to remember that the major airlines were not just gifted their position in todays world, someone, somewhere worked and earned it. Delta did not get as big as it did by being lucky or recieving a hand out. Fact is they worked their ass off and grew, not without substantial risk.

If I started a new movie rental place and gave everyone 10 nights for $1 is it not BLockbuster's right, and frankly its obligaiton to shareholers, to at least try and match the same terms? No one in their right mind would say that isn't the case. Should Blockbuster just cater to their niche market and let me run all over them and take away half of thier business? Damn right Delta is launching Song as a direct result of jetBLue and others and good for them. Either way, the consumer wins. WHat are they supposed to do, sit around and slowly die off and go out of business? Then guess what, those lovely little
fares eveyrone loves on jetBLue will go up overnight. If you think they won't because 'jetBlue really cares about us, the customer,' then you need to go have a talk with someone that has more sense than the person that taught you anything in life. On an unreated note, I find it funny that the JB spokesman said that everytime you see Song literature they are telling you how hip they are- Seems to me JB markets themselves the very same way.


User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2084 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

If I were in the DOJ, I would take a long and hard look at Song. This is bordering on the verge of anticompetitive practices and monopolistic practices.

Whine whine whine. Please give some real justification for these remarks (other than your Microsoft browser 'example').

Support the reformers. Go JetBlue!

If you support the reformers, you should say Go JetBlue and Song. Song is absolutely a reform from the old Delta days. It's a new way of doing business. Granted, it's not systemwide-- you can't change a behemoth overnight. It will show us, however, positive ways that network carriers can adapt to live in the 'new world order'.

All of us here have been screaming that the network carriers have to change. Now, one is, and we're screaming about it more. Sort of like your kid sister apologizing, and you screaming back 'you didn't mean it'.

I hate to say this but, Delta will go the way of United, Eastern, Pan Am and TWA.

Garbage. Delta's better positioned than most to weather this storm, and to make such a dire prediction based on Song is a stretch, to say the least...


25 MSYtristar : Song is just a desperate attempt by Delta to hold on to the market share, an attempt that will not be very successful. How can they think loyal JetBlu
26 Pilot1113 : >>Whine whine whine. Please give some real justification for these remarks (other than your Microsoft browser 'example').
27 DCA-ROCguy : Problem is that if we get to that kind of ratio, the network carriers will not survive. If the LCC's have 55% of the market, the only routes left for
28 Sllevin : An interesting comparison is the auto insurance industry in California. California effectively ended "subsidization" a while back. So people meeting t
29 JBLUA320 : Im not going to say anything about my opinion- I think you all know what it is by now. But for the record, jetBlue's seat width is 18" JBLU
30 UAL-Fan : My mind has suddenly been changed on this issue. I really could not understand why so many people felt this adventure Delta was taking was doomed befo
31 BeltwayBandit : Does anyone know how, if at all, this LCC-within-a-major-airline concept differs from the prior attempts (e.g. MetroJet)? Do they have a separate labo
32 DCA-ROCguy : I don't believe there's a chance in heck that small-town service is going to survive. Small-town service will survive, because there's a market for it
33 Searpqx : I second the above. Regionals such as Horizon, which carry as much O & D traffic as they do connecting traffic, will survive, if not thrive. The key f
34 Mikeymike : Marcus, I think you have some rather mixed up facts Song seat pitch is 33" JetBlue seat Pitch is 32" Song seat width is 17" JetBlue seat width is 18"
35 FSPilot747 : Folks, this is business. Do you think that Delta cares that jetBlue is going to hurt because "it's no fair!"? Not a chance. Delta is shoving song out
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