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Aeroflot Keeps Hammer And Sickle Logo  
User currently offlinePHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12700 times:

From The Moscow Times:

SHORT EXCERPT:
Aeroflot Sticks By Hammer and Sickle

By Lyuba Pronina
Staff Writer

Although Aeroflot is desperately trying to shed its Soviet image, it isn't quite ready to make good on a promise to give up the most cherished part of its 70-year-old heritage: its hammer-and-sickle logo.

But just in case it decides to change its mind again, the winged logo painted on its 100-plus jets will be replaced with easily removable stickers.

Deputy Aeroflot general director Lev Koshlyakov said Tuesday that the airline decided to stick with the hammer and sickle because it couldn't come up with a better logo.


FULL ARTICLE: http://www.moscowtimes.ru/stories/2003/04/16/002.html


I'm surprised that Aeroflot has decided to keep the tired old logo. Sure, there is quite a bit of history behind it, but that's part of the problem; after all, millions of innocent Russians suffered so much under the repressive Soviet regime symbolized by the hammer and sickle. One would think that Aeroflot would be eager to adopt a modern logo that would accurately refect the wonderful nation it serves, rather than retaining a symbol of a failed empire (and ideology). What do you think?


(Picture from www.moscowtimes.ru)

[Edited 2003-04-16 20:09:23]

70 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offline747-451 From United States of America, joined Oct 2000, 2417 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12565 times:

How nice, they will have pcitures of the implements that they use to fix theirplanes on the planes  Insane

User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 2, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12552 times:

Lufthansa would NEVER put a swastika on their planes, a reminder of a hideous chapter in their history. I think Aeroflot should flush the hammer and sickle into the toilet of the past, where it belongs.


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineShamrock1heavy From Ireland, joined Nov 2002, 250 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12538 times:

I think the historic value of it is invaluable. We only learn from each others mistakes. I think they need a new logo though. I remember my naive high school days when I calimed I was communist. Just to be diffrent. I reember seeing the Aeroflot logo and thinking "I want to fly them only!" But anyway, yeah, why not get a new logo, something that symbolizes the Russian people.

-D



when in hell, we'll do shots at the bar
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 12527 times:

Shame..............I find it hard to imagine that a high paid UK branding firm cant come up with a new logo for aeroflot...gives the impression that Russian has nothing to show for itself other then its brutal past....Oh well all I have to say is Shame.....


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineAn-225 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 3950 posts, RR: 40
Reply 5, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 12429 times:

I actually like the logo, and I hope they keep it for a long time to come. It's probably one of the classiest ones around, next only to KLM.

Alex.



Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
User currently offlineAviatsiya From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12421 times:

Lufthansa would NEVER put a swastika on their planes, a reminder of a hideous chapter in their history. I think Aeroflot should flush the hammer and sickle into the toilet of the past, where it belongs.

But is there still a company called Volkswagon? And do they still produce the Beatle? You know, that contraption which is also referred to as "Hitler's car"? Isn't that car also the best selling car in automotive history? Just because of what might have been in the past, does mean it can't represent the people of today.

But anyway, yeah, why not get a new logo, something that symbolizes the Russian people.

And this is basically what the hammer and sickle do represent; the people. This "argument" has been done time and time again. But let's think for just a moment. If Aeroflot has been unable to decide on a "new" logo which the customers would approve of, what does this tell you? Obviously that there is still enough people in Russia who understand what the hammer and sickle represents, and they want to keep it. It could also mean that the people did not like the other choices.

I have chatted with quite a few Russians today about this very subject. And they say they want to see this logo kept by Aeroflot. And these guys and gals are not your Communist nationalistic types either.

Changing a logo which has been used for over 70 years and enjoys instant brand recognition world wide is not so easy.

[Edited 2003-04-16 21:01:12]

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 7, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 12404 times:

I agree with Slawko. The hammer & sickle represents a communist dictatorship that killed 70M people, more than Nazism. The winged hammer & sickle is as offensive as would be a winged swastika. Shame on Aeroflot.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGerardo From Spain, joined May 2000, 3481 posts, RR: 30
Reply 8, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12323 times:

I wonder if we could have some RUSSIAN opinions by people living in Russia, which happen to be probably the biggest m,arket for Aeroflot, on this issue. I doubt, that any American airline would give a s... about the Russian opinions about the Star and Stripes banner.

Just a thought....

Gerardo



dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12307 times:

I would imagine that Aeroflot's makes more money off of the international public, then it does from the domestic population, a large portion of which can not afford to drive let alone fly....and as such I would think that they would want to portray a new image of themselves as was stated by their original request for re-branding...Keeping this logo doesnt do a very good job of that...the image that has become known over the last 70 years is not of the same Aeroflot, and I thought taht by re-branding thats what they were trying to get accross to the international public


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlinePHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12286 times:

What about the compromise mentioned in the article (the design that would replace the hammer and sickle in the current design with a globe)? That way, Aeroflot would get rid of a very controversial symbol, while still retaining a link to its colorful past. Would this be acceptable to those who favor the old logo?

Aviatsiya wrote:

"But is there still a company called Volkswagon?"

Sure, but the Volkswagen logo -- or even the name -- doesn't contain any outright political symbolism. No one is suggesting that Aeroflot change its name or even the overall look of its logo; the problem here lies only in the hammer and sickle emblem -- a symbol of a failed empire and ideology, a symbol of an oppresive regime under which millions of Russians suffered so much, a symbol that does not represent modern Russia.


User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12280 times:

Aviatsia:

"I have chatted with quite a few Russians today about this very subject. And they say they want to see this logo kept by Aeroflot. And these guys and gals are not your Communist nationalistic types either."


This may or may not be so, but point to the fact is that in former Eastern Block regimes heavely inflitrated aviation industry with secret police and pro-regime types. Would dissident be able to advance his/her carreer to airline pilot in Soviet Aeroflot or Interflug? Airline Industry has been one of the most heavily monitored industries, and my bet is that there are still subtle ties to the old interest groups.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 12234 times:

It's hard to believe that Aeroflot could not come up with a better logo. Someone earlier showed possible replacements and some were quite good.

P.S. I agree with those who say the hammer and sickle represent a dark chapter in Russian history that has to go.


User currently offlineCessnapimp From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1320 posts, RR: 19
Reply 13, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12229 times:

Agreed Yyz 717. This antiquated logo bares too heavy a significance. Is is quite offensive to a number of people.

How 'bout...uh.... uh....

Hammer and....

popsicle?



... everybody likes popsicles...


User currently offlineL.1011 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2209 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 12206 times:

http://perso.wanadoo.fr/puck/Aeroflot.jpg
 Big thumbs up


User currently offlinePHX-LJU From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 12113 times:

I missed Aviatsiya's thread from last month with pics of the various proposals including the globe-instead-of-the-hammer-and-sickle one. Here's the link if anyone else missed it as well:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1049470/

While the globe design seems to be the best one there, none of the proposals impress me too much. I do, however, really like the livery design proposal from puck:graphique (see L.1011's link above).

[Edited 2003-04-17 00:23:55]

User currently offlineRupertvander82 From France, joined Dec 2002, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 12016 times:

The hammer and sickle is a classic. My russian pal, who is not communistic in any sense, wants this logo to stay!

User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 12015 times:

He must have forgotten or not experianced what that symbol has once represented.

User currently offlineRupertvander82 From France, joined Dec 2002, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 21 hours ago) and read 11984 times:

Not true. He lived in the communistic times, and knows that the symbol represents. But now things are different, and the logo carries many fond memories.

User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 11939 times:

Obviously things aren't very different if they are keeping the logo...like I said for an airline that wants to turn itself around and change its international image they sure have a strange way of doing it...Not they way I would want to portray the "new modern" russia if I was doing their re-branding...but then again, I guess things haven't changed much...they took back the soviet anthem (which has never been russia's anthem) Aeroflot keeps the hammer/sickle, maybe they should bring back the red rag instead of the Red White and Blue...may as well just go back to the good ole days, and occupy the surrounding nations...way to be progressive!!


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineMilemaster From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 11933 times:

maybe they should bring back the red rag instead of the Red White and Blue

They haven't brought back the red flag yet.. but the military has just recently decided to officially keep the red star as the primary insignia of their military.



User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5111 posts, RR: 21
Reply 21, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 11918 times:

I stand by my statement regarding the swastika/hammer and sickle analogy. Would American, Delta, Continental, Southwest, AirTran or Spirit (all being based in former Confederate States put a Stars and Bars on their planes? Hell no, it's too touchy of a subject, and offensive to many. The hammer and sickle represents INTERNATIONALLY, global Marxism and millions of people slaughtered, especially under Stalin. The past is the past and the best thing for Aeroflot Russian INTERNATIONAL Airlines to do is bury it, once and for all.


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineLH526 From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 2366 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 11904 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

In my eyes, you have to differentiate between the the logo itself, and what purpose it should be used for! These are two very important issues! The logo itself comes from the soviet communist era, from an evil political regime, judging this, its a bad logo with a bad history representing that bad time, I don't know why the russian people still are proud of this logo and want to see it used further on Aeroflots planes. I'm not in the knowledge and position to judge about this phenomen, maybe russians only see the "good" parts of communism, and you don't need to be a communist to see good parts in communism. So, we non russians associate worse things with hammer & sickle than the russians do. And in conclusion, in our minds that logo doesn't fit a 21st century airline of a free, democratic country (that by the way has a great culture and is the biggest on mother earth  Smile/happy/getting dizzy )
Strange situation we are in here now .. so the source to THAT problem (russian history, hamer & sickle logo representing Aeroflot in teh future) has to be found deep in nowadays russian culture and society, as well as worldwide acceptance and researches. All that can't be judged within minutes.

The other point is Aeroflots brand and image itself:
Like I said in an earlier post about Aeroflots new logo, in my eyes the point is, that russia lacks a something like a "russian spirit", something that makes people proude and identifyable with the country (depsite the hammer & sickle logo), that can conclude in a strong brand and image of Russians airline Aeroflot. the logotype is something you can "go on" with but never should start with. Analyze the spirit, look at the country, than go on with the design. But simply starting putting some freaky colours and shapes together and combining them to some generic logotyp hardly is the way to represent one of the biggest airline in the world. In my eyes, branding a russian company is not an easy thing, because of the people and culture behind, do russians care anyway about good branding?? I don't think so. At least the people that work with Aeroflot and especiall thos who are in contacts with the passengers need to have a certain thoughts, ideas and spirit for the company they work for.

I mean what is the purpose of these other new logos, that were created?? Is it some panic like "Ahhh, marketing-rules tells us we need a logo, so let's make some proposals", that obviously is a wrong way of creating a new corporate image, maybe the managers at Aeroflot are to narrow minded to see to point of an good Marketing and the chance that resides in Coporate design and image, sad to see!
If Aeroflot goes further like this with finding their new CID, I'm convinced that the new Identity will be even weaker and more generic than the current one. I can't judge the design-scene in Russia, but I hardly saw any good design coming from russia in the last years! Or is this just another design coming from Airbus' own brand&design office?? If yes, that this is another story that has the potential for getting an own topic here  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The point that Aeroflot lacks a good Image and their CID can hardly be compared to the one of other bigger european or Asian Airlines, is another point!

just my thoughts ...

Mario

[Edited 2003-04-17 05:11:24]


Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
User currently offlineKUGN From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 615 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 11849 times:

As I've already said, airline industry has been one of the most heavily monitored ones in Communist era, heavilly inflitrated by state and military security agencies; only party loyalists had access to the industry, and career that was more prestegious than it could have ever been for their peers' on the West. This mentality has been deeply rooted, and it has had serious consequences on the type workforce and middle management which was not prepared for the market economy. The result is known ... demise of airliner manufacturers, hundreds of baby-flots owned by mixed ownership of local goverments and ex-commie-tycoons, fleets of 2.35 airframes... No wonder the largest one in that mix still keeps the Communist insignia. My firm bet is that they still keep the strong ties with old interest groups, from Communist command economy era. After all, many of today's managers were admitted to the elite club based on someone's recomendation and permission.

User currently offlineAerokiwi From New Zealand, joined Jul 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (11 years 5 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 11779 times:

Many of you seem to feel it is your right to abuse the symbols of other nations. Interesting.

Meanwhile, millions (and lets face it, probably billions) of people around the world find images of the United States very offensive. Yet nobody on this forum is going to criticise American Airlines for having the bald eagle as its logo. And what about the United Kingdom? The Union Jack is a hangover from its imperialist days, hardly the most joyous of eras for many people. Yet British Airways and BMI are never questioned as to why they incorporate it into their logos.

Perhaps if people stop taking such a Western-centric viewpoint, they will understand that for each country, their symbols have certain meanings to them, meanings that can change over the passage of time. A hammer and sickel, for instance, while formerly a symbol of oppressive Russian Communism, could very well be viewed by many Russians now as a symbol of hard work, industry and growth. Who knows? I don't, just trying to understand Aeroflot's motivation for maintaining the logo.

Even my national airline, Air New Zealand, has a symbol that could be seen by some as offensive and representative of some shameful past (exactly what, I'm not entirely sure, but each to his own opinion). Oh and before I'm labelled a communist or hard-core leftie, I'm actually moderately right of centre in my political views.

Go Aeroflot, hope they do well.


25 Post contains images RA-85154 : Hi I believe comparing the hammer and sickle to a swastika doesn't make sense, the same as comparing the Soviet regime to a Nazi regime. I am Dutch an
26 Ds : Hello, this is a very strange discussion. It shows that western propaganda is of the same effect and power as soviet. "Oh, we are Westerners! We are D
27 Positive rate : I think they need to get rid of the hammer and sickle. It's too old fashioned and a reminder of the communist days. Why not just have a Russian flag o
28 RA-85154 : OzarkD9S: The hammer and sickle represents INTERNATIONALLY, global Marxism and millions of people slaughtered, especially under Stalin. The past is t
29 Post contains images Aviatsiya : I do, however, really like the livery design proposal from puck:graphique I don't like it much at all. Firstly the logotype looks funny. In particular
30 Ben : Slawko, you and other Ukrainian expatriate ultra-nationalists are never going to fly on Aeroflot anyway, just on principle... are you? Would you ever
31 Aviatsiya : I know this is off topic somewhat, but it is a fact which should be brought into the discussion I think. Yes, many ex-Soviet citizens are against the
32 Slawko : Yeah thats true they did...I guess they considered th swastika government the lesser of two evils...which goes a long way to indicate what most of the
33 Ben : I guess we will have to agree to dissagree... Good attitude... I know what you mean. Let's wait and see how this turns out.
34 KUGN : DS: "KUGN: "... demise of airliner manufacturers, hundreds of baby-flots owned by mixed ownership of local goverments and ex-commie-tycoons, fleets of
35 Indianguy : YYZ717: Exacltly what is it to you if Aeroflot retains the hammer and sickle? Aeroflot is a Russian carrier and should go by what their Russian custom
36 Jwenting : They've had too many changes already. Name changed from "Soviet Airlines" to "Russian Airlines", puchase of Boeing and now Airbus aircraft, introducti
37 Yyz717 : YYZ717: Exacltly what is it to you if Aeroflot retains the hammer and sickle? Errr......last time I checked, this was a discussion forum & everyone is
38 PHX-LJU : Many of you seem to feel it is your right to abuse the symbols of other nations. Interesting. Very wrong; no one here said anything negative about Rus
39 747-451 : Hey, it's their airline, and they can choose what they would like. Symbolism is just that and quite frankly, there are more important things to worry
40 LMP737 : Aerokiwi: Your analogy about the USA and the UK is not exactly the best one I've heard. If you are wondering why some people feel strongly about the h
41 Aerokiwi : Perhaps then, LMP737, you should consider opinion from outside of the United States. Communism was hardly the shining light of humanity, but just beca
42 PHX-LJU : "If western airlines are entitled to their symbols, then so are all the others." But most airlines don't have political symbols in their logos. Many f
43 LMP737 : Aerokiwi: What I find interesting is that you almost never hear anyone making the argument "The Nazis were bad, but xyz country has done some bad thin
44 Aerokiwi : Flags are political symbols. As well as national. Birds (eg. the bald eagle) is a national symbol, representing a political sytem. The two cannot be u
45 LMP737 : Aerokiwi: Let me tell you a little story. Before the revolution my family left Russia. My grandfather had two older half brothers and an older half si
46 Delta-flyer : Aerokiwi....Are you saying that Americans shouldn't express their opinions when they disagree with others? That Americans have a low mentality because
47 Cicadajet : Its a rather attractive Logo. The symbol seems to mean different things to different people. Its got wings on it though...to me that means Aeroflot, a
48 Aerokiwi : Certainly everybody has the right to voice their opinion, just as long as they are prepared to hear those of others. Hence, the entire reason for the
49 Vafi88 : I don't see how anyone can compare the Nazi regime to USSR. I lived in USSR until its' breakup and for a few years after. Russian people are NOT offen
50 Boeingfan : Brand Identity when you see the stylized wings with the hammer and cycle you know who it is. Aeroflot. The day Aeroflot changes their logo, AA will to
51 Yyz717 : the Hammer and Sickle do not represent death or threat, or harsh times, Yes, it does, to millions of Ukrainians, Estonians, Latvians, Poles, Czechs, H
52 LMP737 : Aerokiwi: Where have I given the impression that those who have a differing view are somehow (in my view) "infringing" on my rights? As for your asser
53 PHX-LJU : Vafi88 wrote: "Hey! Look over there!!! It's the confederate flag....The Southern flag which stood for Racism in the Civil war....what about that???" B
54 Aerokiwi : Seems the only controversy here is from North Americans. Go figure. Why don't we ask the Russians what they think of the symbol. Oh that's right, many
55 Yyz717 : Seems the only controversy here is from North Americans. Go figure. Why don't we ask the Russians what they think of the symbol. It's not just the Rus
56 Zionstrat : Slightly off topic, but I think it is ironic that arguments over symbols generates so much attention- I believe that it demonstrates how extreme most
57 Yyz717 : How about making a difference? Choose not to be extreme based on your personal experience. It cuts both ways. I'll throw that argument back at you by
58 Zionstrat : Yyz717 Visiting Kazakhstan 3 years ago, I learned and lived through the lack of water, electricity, and basic needs that westerns take for granted- On
59 Slawko : Zionstrat: Khazakstan is one extreme...you could have also looked at the Blatic states where the soviet symbols were the frist to go..along with the c
60 Dexter : Soviet Communism killed more people than any other event in the 20th Century...even more than Nazism! Its #1 symbol was the hammer & sickle. Big words
61 JAT : Not that I really care eitherway, but did it ever occur to people that to a lot of Russian people the hammer and sickle means a time when their countr
62 Slawko : At one time the swastika was a symbol of pride for a nation...but not so anymore... Dexter are you implying that those crimes never happend because it
63 Post contains images Dexter : Slawko, I understand your point perfectly. I think it's fair enough for you as a Ukraininan to be opposing the hammer and sickle logo. Very interestin
64 Post contains images Ben : Im not going to comment on the political side of things, but Dexter raises a very good point about history: "Aeroflot" and the Hammer & Sickle logo ha
65 Delta-flyer : "Could it be leftover hatred from the Soviet Union's greatest enemy?" The greatest enemy being the USA? Hardly. In my case, I do not despise the (form
66 747-451 : "Could it be leftover hatred from the Soviet Union's greatest enemy?" Hardly. As far as I'm concerned, they can put what ever logo they wish, but dont
67 SwissA330 : What's wrong with the old logo? Don't get me wrong, I know communism was bad, and many people died during the regime. But still, it's a Logo known aro
68 Post contains links RA-85154 : Hi Compare the situation on Aeroflot with Lufthansa: the 'flying crane' logo of Lufthansa was already in use during the nazi-regime, http://konzern.lu
69 PHX-LJU : RA-85154 wrote: "Lufthansa has never decided to change their logo ever since, althought the logo might seem like a memory to a dark period..." True, b
70 RIX : ...Ben, slight correction here: the first supersonic passenger service has nothing to do with Aeroflot as the first Soviet passenger supersonic flight
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