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New Approach To ZRH - SQ Delaying Flights?  
User currently offlineDanialanwar From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 421 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days ago) and read 3894 times:

Due to German airspace restrictions, flight arriving at ZRH between 6 and 7am are forced to land on Rwy 28 (short & no ILS). Read somewhere that it's too short to handle the 744. Does SQ therefore delay its flights into ZRH - or have they other plans?


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34 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 1, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 3822 times:

Runway 28 is capable of handling long haul jets only when the runway is dry and the weather is good. I have seen SAA's 747s landing at R28.
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © PixAir

This photo shows a MD-11 landing on Runway 28.


User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 2, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3745 times:

Danialanwar, runway 28 can basically handle all aircraft types. It's purely up to the captain to decide if he'll be able to bring his machine down and land safely.
Until 17th July, it's no problem to "divert" to rwy14 or rwy16 for that reason. After 17th July, the germans don't allow any landings on rwy14 or 16 for any reason other than bad visibility. That means if a captain is unable to accept rwy28, he is diverting to BSL, GVA, MUC, FRA, STR, you name it!
This is what I call discrimination. Thank you very much, Mr Transport Minister, for arranging such a stupid and unrealistic deal!!!


User currently offlineSnoopy From Switzerland, joined Oct 2001, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 3739 times:

Unique, my understanding is that the Germans imposed these latest restrictions on a unilateral basis.

But I think that it is rather ironic that most of these guys that live over the border in Germany use Zurich airport when they leave on vacation!


User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 4, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

I will agree with the last two posts 100%!! This is nothing other than discrimination of the worst kind. I wish there were a way to sanction the German companies which fly into ZRH for this absurd action.

Because of the actions of a handful of anti-aviation activists, all of us who work in and out of ZRH have to pay the price!! This includes the massive delays EVERY NIGHT starting at about 20:30 because of the conflicts in arrivals and departures. If we were allowed to continue normal operations there would be a less holding at EKRIT and the noise would be done sooner.

I really have zero patience for these so-called "socially responsible green" types. They live near the airport by choice and they benefit from it too!!

 Pissed

The only positive for me is that I fly the Saab 2000 and we can use 28 for departures after 2100 local time.



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineSnoopy From Switzerland, joined Oct 2001, 370 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 3708 times:

The great scam is that a lot of these people moved into these areas because rents/property prices are cheap because of airplane noise and then they have the gall to complain.

I wonder what will happen if landlords start increasing rents because the noise has gone and the area is more attractive. You can bet your life these people will be squealing like piglets....


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

But this new approach hasn't even been ratified 100% here in Switzerland and in Germany, so what I think is that they (Swiss authorities) should just ignore the Germans.

User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 7, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 3617 times:

AviationMaster, politicians in Berne to ignore the Germans? I wish I could agree!!! Berne is far away from the jet engine noise hence they will never give in. It's just a shame!
Holding patterns will have to be moved from South Germany into Switzerland, hopefully into the region of Berne. I wonder if that would help to wake up politicians...
I can only repeat myself: 700 people in Hohentengen and surroundings have less noise now, but 10000 additional people east of ZRH airport and soon many thousands more south of the airport are additionally "blessed" with noise! Where the hell is justice?
Mr Leuenberger, it's your canton you are punishing, and the whole economy with it!
Saab2000, soon your piloted aircraft will be gone hence runway28 will soon become a landing runway only on weekends!

The germans state that they are not discriminating the airport as the same number of flights can be operated, just on other runways. The operational point of view is completely different, but I understand, those living in Hohentengen are all aviation experts, just because they moved there a few months ago!?? Hahaha...!!!

What about their public holidays? What about the additional car traffic when they all invade cheap Switzerland for their shopping tours? No further comment on this...


User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 8, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 3565 times:

Just got a little emotional, sorry...

I've heard voices asking for the implementation of approaches Kai Tak style, i.e. approaching along the river Rhine and turning sharply for final approach in order not to touch german airspace.

I'm definitely against that, as otherwise, the Germans will get what they want! NO WAY!

The Chief Operations Officer of ZRH Airport will not compromize safety by allowing anything like that. If the swiss politicians are not doing anything against these measures, the airlines will be forced to divert to other airports when weather does not allow landings on rwy28. Germany always stated that it does not intend to jeopardize swiss economy, but that will exactly be the result. Maybe then, politicians will climb down from their trees and finally do something. I personally doubt, however, as it seems that we only have cowards in the parliament. Shame on us to have voted for these people!

A few days ago, a Cessna Citation missed the runway and landed in the grass. Cause apparently was a micro downburst of wind, pushing the aircraft away from the runway and towards the ground. Imagine if that would have happened if the aircraft would have approached rwy34. It would have crashed into aircraft stands or one of the big hangars. Thanks a lot, Germany!

Before that happens, I request our politicians to immediately take the necessary steps!

That was slightly off topic, I'm sorry!

SQ plus many other longhaul carriers into ZRH would probably not delay their arrival, they would rather CANCEL! Thanks again, Germany!


User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 9, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

Any voices from Switzerland AND Germany?

User currently offlineILOVEA340 From United States of America, joined Oct 1999, 2100 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3477 times:

What bothers me is that I get the idea the germans think the airport is only serving the swiss. In fact it is less than an hour from the German border and I constantly see plenty of germans departing from ZRH rather than deal with a long treck to Stuttgart of the horrible frequencies at Friedrichshafen.

I have, more than 5 times been on a flight where a go around was needed due to the problems with runway 28, The runway is just not suitable for large and heavy aircraft.

I had incoming friends who were once diverted to BSL due to weather at ZRH, and while it worked out for them as BSL was their final destination it was horrible for the scores of pax who needed to eaither deplane in ZRH of meet conection flights. (not the BSL is a bad airport, its just not where most people are heading).


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 3465 times:

My personal views of what Bern should have or should do:

-Included this topic when they signed the new trade agreements with the EU.
-or they should go to the EU.
-They should lower the amount of german trucks driving in and out of Switzerland.


User currently offlineSR3496 From Switzerland, joined May 2000, 792 posts, RR: 20
Reply 12, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

Lower only the amount of German trucks driving through Switzerland would be a discrimination as well. I think we don't want to be as stupid as the Germans, do we? I definitely don't.

cu, bk


User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 13, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3396 times:

Well, the truck thing would be one solution even though I also feel that this is not the solution!

Quite some time ago, each and every country has signed an agreement to grant each other the rights to overfly its territory. Suddently, Germany does not want to remember that as they say, landing traffic is different to overflying traffic. Do we have any experts in this forum for this?

Even though Switzerland is not a member of the European Union, Switzerland is equally treated like the other EU nations in terms of aviation since 1st June last year.

Just recently, FRA as well as MUC had their nightban hours cut by the very same Government asking ZRH to extend its nightban hours. I wonder what the population near the airports of FRA and MUC think of that!

Swiss ATC is controlling some parts of German airspace since decades. The german government now suddently wants their own ATC to control this airspace even though german ATC cannot switch over that quick, making it more dangerous for landing traffic as well as overflying traffic (DHL/Bashkirian mid air collision of last year has nothing to do with this problem).

I really hope that swiss politicians stay firm and do not cower of some unrealistic and idle threats!


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 14, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3386 times:

Which political party is currently in control of southern Germany?

User currently offlineVASI From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 3337 times:

Well, I am a German too and I live also in the southern part (close to Stuttgart). I was closely following up this story and the way how this evolved deeply dissappoints me.

First of all I am also a PPL-A pilot with CVFR. I strongly believe that we
( those men and women who participate ind the GA scene) are getting hunted here in Germany. Restrictions are enforced almost everywhere, the "General Aviation" is seen as something which only rich people can afford, as something which is more or less superfluous and therefore attracting the jealousy of the population.

This behaviour can also be found in the region of "Hohentengen". Of course this is something else than the matter described above. As I am in this region quite often I went there for one day to check by myself of how disturbing this aircraft noise really is. I came to the conclusion that a car, a motorcycle or a truck is creating much more noise than the approaching aircraft. If you also compare the numbers of vehicles passing by on the road and the planes over your head whispering into ZRH, then it also should be clear what a real nuisance is.

Not the planes!!! In my eyes this is just the typical German stubborn pettiness you can find anywhere here. Sorry for this, but it is the behaviour in my eyes. When those guys complaining come back from their holidays into ZRH they are happy to arrive on time ond not to get diverted. Also they do not care about the folks living in the approach zone.

One more thing is the approach to RWY 28. I've flown it twice with "blindhood" as a training procedure on a C172 with an experienced flight instructor. I have to say that I got totally sweat after finishing that, the approach is very demanding in my eyes, especially for much faster and heavier aircraft.

The last point: A friend of mine is a B737 Captain flying frequently to Zurich. He also points out, that the regulation is totally STUPID, but part of the daily political buiness and some guys who want to gain votes and show that their strength is on their side!

By the way, ZRH is my favouite airport. Also I can imagine the foundation of a "Pro Hohentengen approach" seriously!

VASI


User currently offlineSaab2000 From Switzerland, joined Jun 2001, 1610 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

I am a pilot at SWISS. The VOR/DME approach to 28 is a toughy. But it is certainly flyable. But for the larger, heavier planes the landing, not the approach, on 28 is what makes you sweat. The Saab has the best short field performance in our fleet so it is no problem. I have a friend who flies the MD-11 and he told me that he basically refuses to land on 28. It is simply too short to be safe. The displaced threshhold shortens the available landing distance very considerably.

Of course, 999 times out of 1000 it will work out, but that 1000th time is the bad one and the pilot will be blamed - not the politician who made him land there. And so he refuses to land there. Good for him.

The noise issue here in ZRH is absolutely absurd. You are totally correct that trains and trucks are more disturbing than the airplanes. I have been told that there is no ILS to 28 because of "political reasons". There is also no approach to 34 or 32 for "political reasons. It is ridiculous and I wish that some pro-economy, pro-aviation politicians would get elected and make it happen. Instead we get these candy-ass SP and candy-ass SVP who both hate the airlines for different reasons.

I guess that this absurd noise issue is something that even ex-Crossair and ex-Swissair pilots might agree about!!! That is a beginning!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



smrtrthnu
User currently offlineVASI From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 192 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

SAAB 2000, as a result of the Avro RJ 85 crash I heard that approaches to RWY 28 should only be allowed under certain revised minimums. Do you know if this already happened?

Also I wonder why the politicians are so extremely short sighted regarding this tragic event. They should have learned the lesson. What about the Swiss pilot union (in Germany "Vereinigung Cockpit"), did they put some pressure on the responsible guys???

I guess this is a never ending story until the next disaster!

VASI


User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 18, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

VASI, unions in Switzerland have no power at all! Very unfortunate for this issue!

Germany allows landings from the North as soon as the minimum visibility is lower than 4500ft. That's until 16th July 2003. After that date, no landings for visibility reason is accepted from the North anymore! As a pilot, you have two "choices": you either divert or risk an approach. Guess what will any pilot choose...

Thanks for pointing out the actual noise level at Hohentengen! I deliberately did not want to come to that point as I have never been there (I simply refuse to visit Hohentengen), but I'm glad that somebody who has been there finds cars more noisy than the approaching aircraft!


User currently offlineAvion From Bouvet Island, joined May 1999, 2205 posts, RR: 7
Reply 19, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3301 times:

Hi

The new regulation is like a death sentence for ZRH. Since not even in bad visibility landings from the north are allowed. Germany really has nothing to complain about. Their trucks go thru our country and pollute big time, so why is it not okay for our planes to cross a comparatively small stretch of german fields. Most of the approach goes over fields and it is the best approach route because there is really no one there.

Tom


User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 20, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3256 times:

Tom, my speech...  Big thumbs up Thanks for the support!

User currently offlineAndyhunt From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1306 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3244 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Guys,

What exactly are the restrictions that are now in place........from what I know, and I'm somewhat guessing:

weekends............no northerly arrivals before 0900.
what about weekdays
and public holidays???

Thanks in advance!

Andrew



Full frame always beats post processing
User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 22, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3245 times:

Andrew, that's valid until 16th July, after that, no more arrivals from the north on weekends and german public holidays! Unless something is done about it...

User currently offlineAndyhunt From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1306 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3244 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
PHOTO SCREENER

Unique,

Even on weekdays.........no arrivals on 14 or 16 before 0900...............???? Is that correct. If so then  Sad

Andrew



Full frame always beats post processing
User currently offlineUnique From Switzerland, joined Mar 2003, 1703 posts, RR: 36
Reply 24, posted (11 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3221 times:

Andy, only on weekends and german public holidays! Weekdays, german airspace can be touched as per 7am until 8pm. Still  Sad

25 Aviasian : This sounds like the situation faced by Singapore when Malaysia and Indonesia refused to permit the Concorde through their airspace on the Bahrain-Sin
26 Godbless : I can not really say that much to this matter since I live too far in the north of Germany to have insight into what has been going on concerning the
27 AviationMaster : What would the German Gov. do if ZRH bound aircraft still approach Runway 14 after July 16th (in other words not complying with the "Staatsvertrag")?
28 Unique : ATC is not allowed to guide aircraft into ZRH from the north as the Federal Office of Civil Aviation in Berne (ATC is reporting directly to them) tell
29 Saab2000 : I had the pleasure of flying the 28 VOR/DME approach tonight. Actually, it was a pleasure. Normally when I fly this approach it is incredibly turbulen
30 Unique : Saab2000, the ILS thing is highly political! Both Kloten and Glattbrugg have not approved an installation of an ILS hence it's delayed for several yea
31 Saab2000 : Unique, I agree that the approach is not unsafe if it is flown correctly. Until the final report comes out about the Crossair crash 18 months ago anyt
32 MD-11 forever : I agree with you 1000% percent Saab2000! This wekend I drove from Bassersdorf to Kloten, and was very amazed to see how many new houses are newly buil
33 Post contains images Unique : Saab2000 and MD-11 forever, I couldn't agree more with both of you!!! With Glattbrugg against an ILS installation, I certainly meant ILS Rwy34! It's j
34 AviationMaster : One thing I was thinking about, if most of the planes have to divert to Stuttgart or Munich, I would like to see how the people that were complaining
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