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KLM Fleet  
User currently offlineL.1011 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2209 posts, RR: 9
Posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Am I correct that the KLM fleet is the following?
15 737-300
14 737-400
13 737-800
12 767-300ER
10 MD-11
12 747-300
21 747-400
Please give the correct fleet if it isn't. Thanks in advance!

17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineSabena332 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

KL has also 737-900`s but I don`t know how much.

Patrick


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2551 times:

KLM has 4 737-900s. Furthermore the 747-300 fleet is down to 11 (or even 10?) and the two freighters will be leaving the fleet shortly. The 747-400 fleet stands at 22, and the first of three 747-400ER Freighters has recently been delivered.

User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2513 times:

I think 5 737-900 have been delivered. First new freighter has been introduced weeks ago
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Miguel Snoep



All 747-300 will be replaced within 1.5 year by B772´s. After that more 777s and A332s will replace M11s and 767s.

Fokker 50s 70s and 100s fly in klm colors and are operated by 100% daughter klm cityhopper.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2420 times:

767 are going to soldier on Keesje. Their lease has been extended for another 5 years with I believe an option on another 5.

Of 737-900s there are only 4, though more are under consideration to replace some -400s.

There is talk of scrapping all or most of the Fokker 50s, either replacing them with F70s (if they can be found) or cutting into the route network.

An F70/100 replacement has been under evaluation for a while now. Do728 was all but decided on when Fairchild/Dornier went under taking that program with them.

Martinair (40%+ daughter) will fly several A320s this year. My guess is that this is really a test to see if they are suitable for KLM. If they are liked, I expect a large KLM order to replace the 737-300 and -400 aircraft next year or so.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3369 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2348 times:

I do not expect any A320's in KLM colours. They already have a large amount of 737NG's and KLM seems to like them a lot. Why add (yet) another fleet type. As it is KLM already has a large amounts of different fleets.

Now there are older 737s', next gen 737's, various kinds of 747's, 767's and MD-11's. Even in the future there will be various fleets. The next gen 737's (and probably the older ones), 747-400's, 777's and A330's. And that is not counting the Cityhopper etc.

You may want to bare in mind that Martinair is only 40% daughter. KLM is mostly interested in Martinair's freight operation and the passenger operation is not too important for KLM. I would not be surprised if KLM had nothing to do with the A320 purchase.

Also, do you know any news about the F50/70/100 replacement. I suppose that with the demise of FD this replacement has been postponed. What's wrong with the Fokkers anyway? It would seem that the old 737's are more urgent to replace. Am I wrong?



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

I heard from an F50 pilot that scrapping them is being considered.
nothing about the F70/100 replacement, seems KLM doesn't know what CAN replace them (my guess is ERJ or CRJ, there isn't any other similar family but as you said KLM is working on fleet consolidation).

KLM never much liked Fokker as you know. This goes back to the big fight between Albert Plesman and Anthony Fokker over the DC-2 which ended with Fokker buying the European production rights for the aircraft which Plesman didn't like at all.
The aircraft were more or less forced on them by the government (no details about the deal, think it had something to do with Schiphol slots) against their will, KLM has a long memory (though it seems to be fading, they vowed to never buy Airbus again when the 310 was replaced ahead of schedule).

For technical reasons, the 733 and 734 are indeed more urgently in need for replacement. 738/9 are the logical choice, but don't rule out the A319/320 yet.
Given the A330 order, there is enough commonality between them for an airline to consider the type. Would give 2 distinct career paths within KLM, 737-767-747/777 and 319/320-330. While not ideal, it may prove better in the long run that having to retrain 737 pilots for the A330. Remember NWA has not only 330s but also large numbers of 320s and 319s, plus if the European merger/partnership/takeover with AF or BA that's been lurking in the shadows for a few years goes through both of those also operate 319s and 320s in numbers.



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2187 times:

Jwenting,

I don’t follow your logic. KLM already operates the B738, so why would they replace their B734 fleet with A320? Yes, there’s minor commonality between the A320 and A332, but overall training, maintenance, ect. wouldn't justify the introduction of a new fleet type. IIRC, all of KL’s B738/B739 were built for Transavia, but KL took delivery of the aircraft and has been reportedly quite pleased. Boeing themselves expect KL to order more B737NG when the time comes, and would probably match Airbus’s offer price dollar-for-dollar.


User currently offlinePetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3369 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Oh come on Jwenting, surely there is no resentment anymore from back in the Plesman days! Besides, KLM is working hard to buy each and every F70 ever made, so they can not dislike Fokker that much.

Still, the F50 is quite different from the F70/100. I never heard about KLM disliking the F50, or Fokker in general for that matter.

The commonality between the A32S and the A33S is overrated in your post. Yes, the pilots will have commonality and some of the maintenance procedures will be similar, but that is were the commonality stops. From a spare parts point of view they are completely different.
Now if this merger between AF or BA is done (for the moment still a big IF), that will change matters. Commonality between NW is not necessary. You will not find NW pilots or mechanics in Europe flying the KLM narrowbodies. Perhaps they will fly some widebodies to the US and back, but not much more. Only advantage I can think of is buying spare parts for KLM and NW at the same time.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlineTravellin'man From United States of America, joined May 2001, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1918 times:

In regards to replacing the Fokkers, well, how about a joint order a few years down the road between KLM and Northwest for......(the first time this has EVER been suggested in these forums, I know, I know..) ....



the 717!!!!!



It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1920 times:

I am posting this for a Dutch m8 of mine (Jurgen Radier):

The 737-800/900, allthough they have the 8K2/9K2 designators, they were never destined for Transavia. Due to the fact that the Dutch Aviation Authorities see the 8K2 and the 806 (if it would exist) as two completely difirent, so that would take twice the costs to get those aircraft certified. Transavia is an 100% KLM daughter, so they made the desicion to get it 1 type. Because the -600/-900 is allmost 1 type, also the -7K2 and -9K2 are that way.


User currently offlineScorpio From Belgium, joined Oct 2001, 5032 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1907 times:

AviationMaster,

A theoretical question:
Suppose a new carrier 'Holland Air' (fictuous name) is founded and decides to lease three 737-800s. All of them are sourced through different companies, and have different designators (say, 801, 802, 803, fictuous numbers again). Does that mean that this new company will have to pay to get each 'type' certified individually?


User currently offlineAviationMaster From Switzerland, joined Oct 1999, 2481 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1897 times:

Scorpio:
It will sure be a lot more expensive, but that is probably the case. (sorry, I can't reveal the source, because that could bring me in trouble)


User currently offlineDaV From Italy, joined Jun 2001, 669 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1862 times:

Why KLM has never ordered the 737-700 to replace the older 733?

DaV



Two monologues do not make a dialogue
User currently offlineZK-NBT From New Zealand, joined Oct 2000, 5333 posts, RR: 11
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

Most of the 747-300's are actually 747-200SUD's! Only 3 actual 743's in KL's fleet! The 744 fleet should stand at 25 I thought PH-BFA through BFY, 20 of those are Combi's and 5 full pax!

User currently offlineSas a340 From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 146 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1665 times:

ZK-NBT,that's not right, KLM has 22 744, 17 combi, 5 pax.
Not all PH-BF....registrations are used. For example PH-BFJ or PH-BFQ don't exist.

regards, sas a340.


User currently offlineJwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 18
Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 1579 times:

BFQ is a fullmotion sim, so is BFZ. There is a 3rd sim, guess that'll be BFJ.

Peter, the KLM fued with Fokker is not about liking or disliking particular aircraft. It goes far deeper, way back to a clash of personalities between the founders of the respective companies which for some reason still clouds judgement today.
I know and agree it's silly, and the aircrew just love the Fokkers, but there it is. A deal to replace them all with Do.728s was all but concluded when that company went down the drain (luckily nothing was signed yet).

As to 738/9 being a more logical choice, indeed they are. But remember an extra order of 767s (or waiting for the 7E7 to become available via a lease construct) was also a more logical thing to do than buy A330s from a purely fleet technical point of view.
At the time when I said that people fell over me stating that NWA also operates 330s and they can just share facilities for those.
Now I use that argument towards the 320 family and I hear it's not valid?



I wish I were flying
User currently offlineA388 From Netherlands Antilles, joined May 2001, 9821 posts, RR: 11
Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1482 times:

Regarding the A330 ordered by KLM, Boeing didn't have any aircraft in that range available at the time, one problem with the 767 was the different type of cargo containers used. A spokesman at KLM did mention the possibility of closer co-operation with NW regarding the A330 fleet, but I don't see KLM ordering or leasing the A320. KLM has indicated their European fleet will be built on the Next Generation 737. The difference with the A330 is that KLM doesn't have any aircraft in that range in their range, it will be an aircraft that will operate on its own. Operating both the A320 and the 737NG side by side is not useful as these aircraft types both fall in the same category, they're two competing aircraft types. The 737 will be in KLM's fleet for the coming 10 years or so. Maybe we will see another Airbus order after that, but for the time being, don't expect any Airbus order from KLM, regarding the A320 family.

Regards A388


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