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AirTran's Airbus Vs 717s  
User currently offlineGnomon From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3259 times:

If AirTran orders Airbuses, would they eventually replace its existing 717 fleet?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3219 times:

No. Airtran loves its 717s. . .they are extremely cost effective. . .they can't get enough of them. . .in fact they can't get more of them in the form they want them in (713)!  Laugh out loud

Besides, the 717s are very efficient with Airtran's system and are new a/c too.

DIA



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3197 times:

While AirTran does "love" it's 717s, compared to the DC-9s, keep in mind it wasn't the current "regime" that ordered the MD-95. I won't say publicly here what has been told to me in private.

What I will say is that negotiations are ongoing with both manufacturers. Part of these negotiations include the current debt load. There has been talk that Airbus has offered, as part of their initial offer, to eventually replace the 717s one for one with 319s. Whether or not this will actually take place, no one can say. Most certainly, no one on this board.

As I have stated before, from everything that I read and hear, AirTran is giving Boeing every opportunity to step up to the plate with this order. I believe they want to stay with Boeing, but will not do so just for the sake of it. I firmly believe however, that it is Boeing's order to lose.


User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

AirTran--if they order the A319 or A320--will use them primarily on longer routes. The 717-200 is better suited for the shorter, high-frequency routes flown by the airline. I still think FL should order the 737-700, since that is a proven plane in longer-range domestic service (thank you, WN!  Smile ).

User currently offlineJj From Algeria, joined Jun 2001, 1227 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Nah they won't order Airbus. Too much costs in training... and that thing about airbus trading for 717's would surprise me a lot. Not so long ago, they were complaining because boeing was trading SQ's A340's for 777's...

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3132 times:

I would say that the A319 and A320 are a far more "proven" plane in longer-range domestic service, since they were available and flying long range US domestic routes many, many years before the 73G and 738 even flew for the first time.

The 73G would be just fine as well, however.

N


User currently offline717fan From Switzerland, joined Nov 2001, 2017 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3130 times:

They won't replace the 717, neither with the 737NG nor with the A32X...

User currently offlineMt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3110 times:
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Is training a factor? If they get 737NG the training costs will still be there.


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3093 times:

If they get 737NG the training costs will still be there.

Not as dramatically however... remember, FL used to operate 737s


User currently offlineI LOVE EWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 852 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3073 times:

A little off topic here but M717 thanks for not getting to frustrated by the 12 year old aviation 'enthusiasts' who think that they know everything about an airline and airplane because they have spend 40 hours a week playing aviation simulation games and who like to think they are hot-shit by trying to get into an 'argument' with a true aviation professionals on here like yourself. I for one do appreciate the quality the true professionals like yourself bring to airliners.net...

Sorry for the digression back to the topic at hand.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3029 times:

"I would say that the A319 and A320 are a far more "proven" plane in longer-range domestic service, since they were available and flying long range US domestic routes many, many years before the 73G and 738 even flew for the first time. "

Using that logic Gigneil I can make a better argument that Boeing is a far more "proven" aircraft manufacturer than Airbus because Boeing was founded and has been building commercial aircraft many, many years before Airbus was "created" by the European Governments.

http://boeing.com/history/boeing/




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2994 times:

". . .12 year old aviation 'enthusiasts' who think that they know everything. . ."

Did I miss something here? Is this in regards to this thread, or another altogether?

Seeing as how M717's reply was right after mine. . .makes me wonder.

DIA

P.S. Not that I have to remind anyone, but I will. No offense is meant, so here goes nothing: Even if some younger folks' replies are factually wrong or misleading, remember, everyone has different ideas and opinions, right or wrong, and no matter how far rom the truth it could be. I would tend to think that they want to be "in the know" like many other A.netters are. Some things that the younger folks say are just downright funny!



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineBa319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8546 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2949 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The 717 is the backbone of the AirTran fleet,they will not leave the fleet,however,either the 319/320 or the 73G or 738 is likely to enter the fleet.It is most unlikely Boeing will produce the 717-300(unless they have additional orders),so AirTran will have no choice except add another fleet type.

Whoever offers the best terms will win.Best of luck to both parties.

Rgds

BA319-131



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7591 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

Remember, when you have leases, you cannot easily get out of them. Unless you can renegoiate them (outside of Ch.11), you simply cannot just walk away from an aircraft. Those you saying than AirTran is just simply going to get rid of their 717's, you are wrong, not unless Boeing Capital would let them.

User currently offlineI LOVE EWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 852 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

Don't worry DIA it wasn't meant towards you or anyone who has replied to this thread yet. If I had a problem with what someone said on here so far I would have said it to them on this forum and not 'beat around the bush'

My post was to thank M717 and the rest of the experts on here. What some people say on here is not funny but stupid althought they do have the right to say what they want. They don't understand that some of the professionals who add quality to the forum don't appreicate it when they (the 12 year olds) try to get into 'arguments' with them (the true experts). This leads the true experts who add quality to the forums leave or simply don't post like some have done.

Sorry once again for the digression...


User currently offlineDouglas DC-9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 303 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2842 times:

I highly doubt them selling their 717's. I'd like to think that since they are a big 717 buyer, they will still go Boeing.


DC-9-32


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

They'd turn the 717 fleet in a heartbeat for the right deal--why not? Since debt load is fully half or more of the block hour cost in depreciation--it can make or break a balance sheet or income statement. Decisions are made for business reasons....not for enthusiasts.

Don't be so naive to think that airlines are married to aircraft and manufacturers.

Even Herb would have turned the 737 fleet---for the right price.


User currently offlineMxCtrlr From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 2485 posts, RR: 35
Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2791 times:

Make no mistake whatsoever, the A320's that Ryan International is flying for AirTran are a statement to Boeing - "Build us the 717-300 or you'll be seeing a lot more of these flying around in AirTran colors!" Also, don't think for one minute that Boeing isn't listening or that AirTran wouldn't abandon the 717 in a cold heartbeat if Boeing doesn't come through. As someone said at the beginning of this thread - the order is Boeing's to lose and Airbus' to gain!

MxCtrlr  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freight Dogs Anonymous - O.O.T.S.K.  Smokin cool



DAMN! This SUCKS! I just had to go to the next higher age bracket in my profile! :-(
User currently offlineGr8slvrflt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1606 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2741 times:

While most pilots and mechanics I talk to say it looks like we're going with Airbus, I'm not so sure. Latest I hear is that the feds are angrier with France and Germany than they let on and not at all happy about jetBlue's recent order. They have supposedly told Boeing to "make it happen" with AirTran. If AirTran were to replace the 717s with A319s, a major strategy shift would be necessary as I doubt anything larger than a 717 would be economic for many of AirTran's smaller markets. AirTran and AirTran's customers LOVE the 717. Additional Dash 200s are forthcoming and an increased capacity Dash 300 would be welcomed. No 717 version will ever have economic range for transcontinental flights, though, so a second type is needed. In addition to more 717s, the upcoming order will have to include either A319/320s or 737-700/800s. Airbus and Boeing both might be willing to refinance the 717 fleet at more favorable terms as part of any deal. It looks like Star Alliance members might order the 717 increasing the chances of continued development, including a stretch. All airlines have a vested interest in keeping competiton in the market--playing Boeing and Airbus against one another for the best terms. Ryan's use of the A320 has absolutely nothing to do with AirTran's leanings; Ryan just offered the best deal. Look for some activity around the Paris Air Show in June. My guess: all Boeing.

User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2732 times:

AirTran's agreement with Ryan International really has nothing to do with Airbus v. Boeing; Ryan International just had the luck to have the a/c available (since Apple Vacations is using USA 3000 for more and more of their charter flights, since they own the airline), it's simply a right place, right time sort of thing. This contract does allow AirTran to evaluate the A320, since they've already evaluated the 737NG when Miami Air did some contract flying in the past few years. What it really will come down to is who will offer them the best deal. Boeing would love to keep AirTran as a customer, but since they inherited AirTran as a customer in the merger with MDD (AirTran's 732s were all previously owned a/c), AirTran doesn't really have any true brand loyality. Had Boeing canned the MD-95 after the merger (the Commerical Aircraft Division of MDD was not the reason for the merger in the first place), AirTran could have bolted to Airbus; but one can speculate that Boeing went ahead with the project just to keep AirTran happy, ad from buying Airbus a/c. Could AirTran go European? Hey not a lot of people expected EasyJet to place an order for Airbus a/c.

User currently offlineBWIA 772 From Barbados, joined May 2002, 2200 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2643 times:



Will the 713 if produce, be a direct competitor for the 736 or 737-700. If it is the former and it is more economic than the 736, they should go with it once there is a demand for it. Is there a great demand for the 736 type market seeing that all i hear in this forum are that the 2 products the 318 and 736 are to heavy hence not economical.

This situation is real 'IFFY' as Airbus seems willing to do anything to get an order away from Boeing when it comes to the 737/320 market.



Eagles Soar!
User currently offlineCloudy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

While most pilots and mechanics I talk to say it looks like we're going with Airbus, I'm not so sure. Latest I hear is that the feds are angrier with France and Germany than they let on and not at all happy about jetBlue's recent order. They have supposedly told Boeing to "make it happen" with AirTran
-----

Hear from whom? I'd be surprised if our policy towards the French has anything to do with Boeing's decisions. For most companies, profits are more important than any under the table pressure from Washington (though the vast majority will obey the laws). Boeing is a major defense contractor, though, so that may change things a bit.

Also...by next election year, unless they do something else just as bad, very few in America are going to care about what France and Germany did. And that means Washington won't care either - at least they won't care nearly as much. The politicians know this, so I doubt they'll be pressuring Boeing to help them punish the French.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8507 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2552 times:

The fact that Airbus doesn't have an aircraft as efficient as the 717 (in its class) and that going Airbus would require a major shift in AirTran's strategy should raise some eyebrows.

User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2466 times:

I won't say publicly here what has been told to me in private.

Awwww, Come on man. Don't Hide it, Divide it.

That having been said, If AirTran did not want the 717, Joe Leonard would not have accepted them. He still likes them, and I do not think he plans on getting rid of them for a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng time to come. As long as AirTran stays where they are at, I have a sneaky suspicion that they will retire those birds.


User currently offlineI LOVE EWR From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 852 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (11 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2407 times:

Awwww, Come on man. Don't Hide it, Divide it.

I hope you are joking when you said this. Why would someone release confidential information on here?


25 Lowfareair : >>That having been said, If AirTran did not want the 717, Joe Leonard would not have accepted them. He still likes them, and I do not think he plans o
26 Cloudy : Leonard wants everybody to think that the 717s are the greatest thing since sliced bread, whether it is or not. He wants more orders to come for the 7
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