Airplanetire From United States, joined May 2001, 1809 posts, RR: 4 Posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1379 times:
Sorry if this is an annoying post that is obviously wrong, but my creative juices were flowing and I had fun coming up with this relatively simple but interesting idea on how to make a longhaul lowfare company work. Here is my idea for this comprehensive longhaul airline:
First of all, the airline would have its short and medium haul fleet made up of one type of aircraft such as the 737-800 or A320. This would of course keep costs down because there are not five different types doing somewhat of the same job. The longhaul fleet would be composed of one or two different types. Preferably one would be smaller, so able to operate on more than just really high demand flights such as New York to London. It could do the thinner ones such as MEM-AMS. The other one would be larger and longer legged so that it could serve routes with more demand, as well as much longer haul than transatlantic flights, such as transpacific. A possible combination of aircraft would be A340-300 and A330-200, or 777-200 and 767-300, or any combination of those or others. On these aircraft, the airline could offer full service, so would still attract business people. The airline as a whole though only would be operating three aircraft, so costs of keeping those would not be as high as in an airline such as Delta or American Airlines which both operate in excess of five different types, NOT including variants of each (777, 767, 757, MD-80, Fokker 100, 737 for AA; 777, 767, 757, 737, MD-80, MD-90, MD-11 for DL). The short and medium haul flights would be operated basedon a lowcost airline model, offering less service. That would further cut costs. That part of the airline could be like JetBlue though, making it very appealing to customers anyway. I have never flown JetBlue myself, so I cannot attest to what they are like, but they seem to be generally well-liked. The lower cost structure of the short and medium haul parts of the airline could cut prices some on the longhaul part, but still retain the full-fare service on those flights.
This might never work, but I think about it a lot and wanted to share my idea and see what you all think. It seems logical.
Fritzi From Sweden, joined Jun 2001, 2760 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1321 times:
Another armchair CEO who thinks that he has ideas that no one else has ever thought about...
Bring these ideas with you to the bank when you ask for a loan to start up your revolutionary new airline. I guarantee you that the person who you talk to at the bank will laugh his a$$ off!
A almsot full beer glass is better than a almost empty one
Demoose From United Kingdom (England), joined Mar 2001, 1951 posts, RR: 39 Reply 3, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1275 times:
Give the guy a break he was only sharing an idea! Nice theory btw, if only it would ever work. Unfortunately it takes more than just a streamlined fleet to create a low cost airline, there's so much more that has to be considered and when you introduce long haul it puts a whole new spin on things!
Mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 4569 posts, RR: 60 Reply 4, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1257 times:
Pull out your spreadsheets and see how it figures out! Until then, it just sounds like "just another idea"...
I couldn't believe the number of people putting ideas forward to me to "sell" their proposal to financiers, and their calculation assumptions are based on "optimist" or even a 15 year old can do better !
Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
Airplanetire From United States, joined May 2001, 1809 posts, RR: 4 Reply 5, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1155 times:
Thanks for your responses, nice or not ! I didn't quite know what kind of reception this would get, but now I know. I know there is a lot to it and this could not just happen so easily as it might have seemed the thread starting post deemed it. It was just an idea I had and wanted to share to see the unrealistic parts of it, and if any of it could work. I do not have any aspirations to be an airline CEO and I did not suggest that I could miraculously pull an airline out of its current poor financial situation. I have no vast knowledge of business and am fine to admit that. I am not trying to pose as somone I'm not. Criticism is a wonderful thing, but only if it is constructive. It doesn't get anyone or anything anywhere is it is just that something would not work but with no reason why. Thanks to those of you who gave me some reasons why this wouldn't work, and any input on a part of it you thought could.
Airplanetire From United States, joined May 2001, 1809 posts, RR: 4 Reply 6, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1149 times:
I think I'll keep going. Why try to oppress someone's thinking and reasoning? Whatever they came up with might not work, but that's part of it. If a person ever wants to be innovative and follow the path less traveled, they have to come up with ideas, some mistakes and some successes. Let people be creative.
P.S.
I don't think at all that I know how to make an airline that works. I just didn't know what else to call this thread.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16778 posts, RR: 58 Reply 8, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1122 times:
How does a business start? By a lot of thought and effort. You go for it Airplanetire!
CanadianPylon From Canada, joined May 2003, 86 posts, RR: 0 Reply 9, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1090 times:
Give the guy a break... Atleast he is throwing out an idea.... Try this... Rather than just trashing the idea, think of a way to enhance the idea, and offer something different. It too damn easy just say, "Nope... That won't work you idiot!!"
You have to remember that the founder of FedEx, Frederik Smith, wrote a university thesis paper about operating a freighter company out of one major hub.... Hmm, the university prof panned the idea, and gave it a failing grade. Ya, and FedEx is such a business failure too!
Srbmod From United States, joined Mar 2001, 14263 posts, RR: 62 Reply 10, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1069 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Really one of the major problems with a low-fare longhaul service is in the inflight service. That is a big thing, because not everyone will want a few packets of snack mix and a half can of cola every 90 minutes or so. The inflight model of PeoplExpress' EWR-LGW service back in the 1980s could be a model, where you charge for meals that perhaps could be a possible way to do it. The major problem is that the meals that were not sold would be thrown out after each leg, so the waste there would cut into any profit on the route. Perhaps gateside food kiosks or preflight meal ordering at check-in could reduce the amount of food wastage. Low-fare has typically meant low frills (no inflight entertainment, no meals, etc), so one would have to use the JetBlue IFE model as a way to do it, or either offer portable DVD players or MP3 players for rent either inflight or at the gates. The one thing that has made low-fare longhaul unprofitable is the seasonal nature of the service, along with the amount of frills one has to include on long-haul flights.
Demoose From United Kingdom (England), joined Mar 2001, 1951 posts, RR: 39 Reply 11, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1058 times:
You also have to think of the crew, long haul flights mean that crew do not return to their base at the end of the day and hence must be accomodated. Hotel costs for the crew stopovers would be a huge cost to the airline.
Pe@rson From United Kingdom (England), joined Jan 2001, 16778 posts, RR: 58 Reply 13, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1049 times:
Give the guy a break... Atleast he is throwing out an idea.... Try this... Rather than just trashing the idea, think of a way to enhance the idea
Eloquently put, CanadianPlyon; I couldn't agree with it more. He needs constructive criticism not comments that won't help whatsoever.
How do ALL businesses start? By an idea - yes, a thought. And this is exactly what he has done - thought about it.
Srbmod From United States, joined Mar 2001, 14263 posts, RR: 62 Reply 14, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1029 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW FORUM MODERATOR
Another thing I forgot about is that low-fare airlines depend on high untilization rates on their a/c, and a long haul route like say ATL-LGW, that a/c is essentially being devoted to that route about 20 hours a day (8 hour flight plus 2 hours on the ground each way), and maybe get sent on a short hop (like Delta does with the 777 and the MD-11) to somewhere like Orlando.
DCA-ROCguy From United States, joined Apr 2000, 3846 posts, RR: 53 Reply 15, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 909 times:
This is a board for people who enjoy discussing airlines, let's not jump on someone for asking for thoughts on an idea.
Actually, Airplanetire, you've described two-thirds of what I think the USA network carriers will have to become to survive. A network carrier offers three things, as far as I can tell, that make it a network carrier: 1) big network of cities of all air-market sizes, with hubs to allow maximum city-pair combinations; 2) international-transcontinental routes, with alliances; 3) the availability of premium service where economical.
It seems to me that three types of operation are needed in order to make this work economically in a low-CASM world:
1) Domestic mainline LCC-type operation with *one a/c type and no more* as you suggest. There might be family variants--like 73G/738 or 319/320, etc. But one type and no more. Also, a network carrier probably would want to offer a small business class like AirTran does. This airline would be its own airline and have its own name and paint scheme.
2) International mainline operation with *two a/c type and no more* as you suggest; 772-763 or a similar Airbus combo would probably be most effective. Also, I'd add that only one class combo should be used, and be the same on all a/c, whether it's a two-class or three-class setup. One implication: no more 744's for US carriers. C'est la vie. Survival is the name of the game. Let JAL and SIA who have the density for these a/c on a large percentage of their route system, use the Whale.
3) Regional-jet operation, whether it's one big carrier (a la American Eagle) or a stable of contract carriers (a la UA's use of ACA, Air Wisconsin, etc.). That flies the thinner routes and keeps smaller cities attached to the system.
Srbmod--for overseas flights, a new business might spring up that would sell boxed inflight meals at the gate (maybe this is already happening?), so that the plane would not need special kitchens, etc. Just space for the trash. Maybe carry drinks and pretzels on board, but nothing else.
Demoose--crews would need to get used to staying at mid-level accomodations, no better. Flight crew at the board can offer their thoughts, since they're the ones who spend lots of time in hotels. But it seems to me that even an international division has to be CASM-conscious.
Delta777jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 889 posts, RR: 1 Reply 17, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 843 times:
No, I think he is right. Well its not the best to form an new airline right now, but if one of the major carriers change the fleet to just 3 types of aircrafts it would change the costs for maintenance, spare parts, crew training etc. dramatically.
For example AA:
B 737-800
B 767-300 ER
B 777
The thing with the no frills flights on the domestic sector is an advanced idea what is allready with for example LH in progress.
In the near future I expect that Germanwings will do the subfeeder flights etc. for the long haul services. It makes first of all more sense and the second reason is to avoid new low cost carriers such Ryanair etc.
Tsentsan From Singapore, joined Jan 2002, 2008 posts, RR: 13 Reply 18, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 790 times:
Perhaps another aspect you might like to consider is trying to reduce or recruit staff with lower wages, and you might be able to significantly cut out a major cost to your business.
Danialanwar From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 421 posts, RR: 1 Reply 19, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 717 times:
Well I guess no-frills longhaul will be a problem, but low cost longhaul surely isnt all that way of. Qantas tries to do so with Australian Airlines ... full service but everything else is streamlined (one class, one type, no fancy FFP).
Another thing that airlines try to do is fly smaller planes as far as possible, for example Lauda Vienna-Dubai-Male on a 737-800, Qatari Doha-Moscow on A319LR (planned, i guess).
A new airline also has advantages ... no cultural baggage. So employment terms and wages are negotiated afresh, enabling more efficient work practices.
But the main problem nowadays is OVERSUPPLY. Thus a successfull airline should figure out a business model that allows for short term capacity adjustment without much pain. And please come up with something smarter than "park planes, fire employees ... if it picks up we may hire again" kind of thing
Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
Prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 5147 posts, RR: 55 Reply 22, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 537 times:
Dear Airplanetire, in 5 years time, or maybe 25 years time you will have to start, take over or run a business - an airline business or any other business, it doesn't matter.
When time comes, then turn your business plan 180 degrees - have a look from the other side.
What does that mean? It means, first of all you must find out who are your customers and what are their needs. When you have decided that you can make a profitable business out of fulfilling their needs, then comes second part of the plan: How to fulfil their needs.
Remember this when time is up: Always put the customer in the center. Then you will become a successful CEO whatever business you may choose.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Airplanetire From United States, joined May 2001, 1809 posts, RR: 4 Reply 24, posted (6 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 377 times:
I truly thank all of you! You gave CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM, not a "nope it won't work" answer. Like I said, I have no intentions to be an airline CEO, or might I add, even start an airline. Sometimes its fun to think about how I might do it, whether or not it works. I'm sure everyone thinks about how they would do something, no matter if it be starting and running an airline, drive a car, run a country, etc. I appreciate all that you guys put into this.
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! I didn't quite know what kind of reception this would get, but now I know. I know there is a lot to it and this could not just happen so easily as it might have seemed the thread starting post deemed it. It was just an idea I had and wanted to share to see the unrealistic parts of it, and if any of it could work. I do not have any aspirations to be an airline CEO and I did not suggest that I could miraculously pull an airline out of its current poor financial situation. I have no vast knowledge of business and am fine to admit that. I am not trying to pose as somone I'm not. Criticism is a wonderful thing, but only if it is constructive. It doesn't get anyone or anything anywhere is it is just that something would not work but with no reason why. Thanks to those of you who gave me some reasons why this wouldn't work, and any input on a part of it you thought could.
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