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Branson's Concorde Proposals  
User currently offlineShamrock_747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3179 times:

According to Sky News, Trade and Industry Secretary Patricia Hewitt has said she will be 'very interested' to look at any Concorde proposal Virgin boss Sir Richard Branson has. Branson and his team are expected to meet with her to discuss the options today or tomorrow.

There is an article about his proposals here: http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/story.jsp?story=403205

Shamrock_747


47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6000 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3031 times:

Will he also pay the amount of millions that BA paid for their first batch of Concordes? As I recall, it was only 3 Concordes that were sold for 1£ each.

I'm impressed that the Secretary has fallen for the load of rubbish mr. Branson & his PR team has fired off lately.


User currently offlineVc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1411 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3011 times:

Even if he could convince the government that as the aircraft were bought before BA was privatised they didn't belong to BA, the Concorde simulator was bought post privatisation so it does belong to BA. It would be interesting to see how you could operate a Concorde without it's simulator, unless BA sold it to him. Now how many hundreds of millions of pounds were you offering for the simulator???

Regards little vc10 } Smile


User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2989 times:

Wel if turns out that Concorde some how DOESN'T belong to BA,their shareholders will be getting a nice summer dividend Smile

User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1586 posts, RR: 10
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2909 times:

Dividend on your BA shares - you'll be lucky!




Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2872 times:

Hey, if it turns out that BA DOESN'T own the Concordes, the government will owe BA in the order of billions of pounds.

User currently offlineBackfire From Germany, joined Oct 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

As I recall, it was only 3 Concordes that were sold for £1 each.

And how many does Branson want? If he only wants three, then I make that...um...hold on...ah, yes...three quid!!


User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

Backfire, they belong to BA. They can sell them for however much they want.

User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

If Branson thinks he could create a Concorde operation with 3 planes then I suggest BA sell them to him Smile


Dividend on your BA shares - you'll be lucky
Indeed in normal circumstances but read 777236ER's post Smile I don't actually own any BA shares however.For Shame!



User currently offlineShamrock_747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2744 times:

Branson's proposal is to take over all BA and AF Concordes and fly three of them, using the rest as a source of spares for the next 20 years.

I don't see why three aircraft wouldn't be adaquate - it's enough for one to be flying a daily flight, one to be the standby aircraft and one to be in maintainance.

Shamrock_747


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2698 times:

Not only the simulator and spares, but he'll need a lot more than some retired staff, meaning BA would have to transfer most of their Concorde staff to VS.
A reduced flying programme? Well the current single daily service has been one of BA's problems, too little revenue even if the loads are good.
Let's be clear, there is much to criticize in BA's marketing of the aircraft since 2001, and the general way the operation has been run, so a morning or evening flight? Customers seem to want both. But BA's engineering operation was so run down personnel wise, no way could we support a double daily.
So 3 aircraft are not enough, and what about the docking and other facilities for maintenance owned by BA?
He'd need 4-6 aircraft, presumably BA's lower hrs aircraft, OAF and OAG, (which were the 'extra' aircraft BA got in 1979-80) and some AF ones, all of which have lower hours than BA's.
AF won't co-operate, neither will BA and Airbus, BA's Rod Eddington pleaded with Airbus in March to support the BA operation until April 2004, as tickets had already been sold on the BGI winter season for 2003/2004, they said no, AF are stopping, so BA have to.
The extra costs imposed by Airbus won't go away for Branson, even if Airbus were agreeable, it would have to be a joint BA/VS operation anyway, would that count as two operators, as Airbus stipulate?


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

Whatever Sir Richard has in mind... I'm all for it. If he really wants badly enough for the operation to succeed, then I have no doubt it will.

Someone needs to do something to keep this majestic bird in flight.

N


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

What are BA's Concorde pilots going to do, transfer to 777 or 747 flights. Or go work for Virgin?


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Those who are near retirement will go early, the rest on to 747/777 probably.
Block retirements on the engineering side over the next few years too.


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2596 times:

I think Branson's 'starting' point is 1 pound. There's no doubt that he'd need all the spares, personnel, etc., which BA would be entitled to charge some money for.

That said, we *are* talking about an old, used plane which requires a lot of MX. How valuable can the airframes be?

It would be wonderful to see Branson's request evolve into something worthwhile. Perhaps he could acquire both BA and AF's fleets and operate some other services. Maybe SFO-HNL-NRT?  Smile  Smile  Smile (hey, we can hope)

Steve


User currently offlineLeezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4042 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2569 times:

I'm sure SRB knows something we all don't otherwise he wouldn't keep on about it. He's not a stupid man otherwise he wouldn't have got where he is today. At first it seemed like he was only after some cheap publicity, but if thats all he was after then I'm sure he would have gone away and forgotten about it by now.

At least asking the government for help now shows he means business and is not just after the free publicity. He has even suggested that BA and VS operate joint services and share the costs. If he believes in this project so much to do this, maybe people should stop critisizing, wake up and start helping to keep this glorious triumph of Anglo/French engineering in the skies. Some things are just more important than money.

He is a master of marketing, look how VS punch way above their weight- heck we even made a profit in the last 12 months, so don't doubt what he could do given half a chance.

Come on BA give us a chance, thats the least you could do !!.

 Smile



"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

If SRB recognizes that it is AF and Airbus that has brought this about, we might take him more seriously, to be honest though, recent events have probably only brought BA retirement forward by a year or so.
He won't want airframes near the 24000hrs limit for a major check, which means OAF and OAG and some AF ones.
Routes? A double daily JFK, (if he will put his money where his mouth is he'll give up a VS morning slot for Concorde?)
The BGI routes, decent charters like a LHR-LHR, but the full 3.5 hours like the Assessment flights we did in 2001, charge about £1500 per seat.

But still, none of us are counting on this, we expect the aircraft to be retired, he may be getting a lot of hopes up, but not us at BA, if it did happen and looked OK, a joint operation, we'd be up for it most of us.
I will believe it when it happens, I think Airbus want the staff supporting Concorde elsewhere, I also doubt AF will want a UK operation to carry on after them.


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2513 times:
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I won't rule anything out, whatever Branson does, i certainly hope he succeeds for the sake of SST, we are not talking about an ordinary aircraft. But the crucial element of all this is the fact that he has managed to bring the government into it.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlinePW100 From Netherlands, joined Jan 2002, 2485 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

@GDB
Just a hypothetical question:

You are and have been stating for quite some time now how low morale has been within the engineering department [amongst others] within BA. I just wondered how close you guys are within the department. I mean if this thing was valid and seriously considered, would you sonic-guys leave BA en-group and join VS to set up a Concorde operation? Now that would be something, a real morale booster, instead of just eating your heart out and waiting for the inevitable. What would the majority do? Will there still be room for you within BA after Concorde, are you guys even willing to stay at BA?

Anyway, wish you guys all the best. You made supersonic transport a reality for over two decades! Although I never had the privilege to experience that, thanks for all your work which made these beautiful photos possible!


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Photo © Joe Pries - A.T. TEAM


PW100



Immigration officer: "What's the purpose of your visit to the USA?" Spotter: "Shooting airliners with my Canon!"
User currently offlineAussiestu From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 780 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Now just imagine a joint operation between BA and VS. Would Richard be allowed to then scream about BA abuses and being that independant airline any more.

Leezyjet: 'come on BA give us a chance...thats the least you can do?' Please explain as i would love to know. VS has had all the chances that others have and made the best of it, BA owes VS nothing!

BA will not give these planes to richard for nothing, he will have to pay like anybody else will and of course he wants them all for cannibalisation, do you honestly think that AF will hand them over, they owe VS nothing, neither does BA but hey he can wish.

A joint operation with BA/VS operating the flights together would be fantastic for crew morale and for the UK. To operate these aircraft solely as a British thing would be a feather in the UKs hat. Does VS wear hats........well somewhere to start!!!!


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 84
Reply 20, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2333 times:

I don't think SRB wants something for nothing.

I think the 1 pound thing was a starter.

N


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13208 posts, RR: 77
Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

PW100. it would have to be a pretty solid looking operation for us to go to VS, but I really cannot see them being able to do it without BA, so in that case, a joint operating company made up and BA and VS, presumably we'd still be under our BA terms of employment.
As for us, well BA have said no sackings, but on the other hand it is hard to see where many of us will go, plenty of surplus staff already.
Yes we hate the management in Engineering, my shift was the first to be told of the news, the same time as it went public, the manager telling us could hardly conceal his glee.
But I have to say that in all this there is a belief that all Branson would do is paint the aircraft he got off us in VS colours, declare he cannot operate them, blaming BA of course, then they end up in museums in VS colours, an airline unlike BA, which has nothing to do with Concorde, much less being the lead operator who actually made serious money out of it over the years.
That is why apart from the practical considerations, it would have to be a joint effort, we trust Branson even less than we trust BA.
In all this speculation, as sad as BA Concorde staff are, they generally regard Branson's comments with contempt, we know what is involved in running Concorde, his public pronouncements so far shows Branson has not got a clue.
He should go talk to Airbus, then we'll see.


User currently offlineAussiestu From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 780 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2261 times:


Thankfully for people like GBD we can see the REAL picture. SRB is not too sure what this will all take and is just heading for publicity and trying for something that will not happen unless it is a joint BA/VS venture. Can it happen?


User currently offlineDavid L From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 9524 posts, RR: 41
Reply 23, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2218 times:

GDB: Thanks for your comments. It's been evident for some time that things were not going well but I think I knew you'd tell us what you could, when you could, so resisted pressing you.

That's a good point about having the museum Concordes in VS colours. It would be a travesty. Much as I'd like to see them flying for another 10 years, I'd prefer them to go with dignity.

If the government reckons it has a say because they sold a couple on the cheap to BA as a nationalised company then that means they could have stepped in at any time after privatisation and told BA to sell any pre-privatisation aircraft to any airline at any price. As far as I'm aware, when they privatised the company, all the assets went with it - the Concordes belong to BA and they can decide who to sell them to and for how much.

Still... the post 2001 management thing is disappointing, even for someone whose job isn't on the line.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16872 posts, RR: 51
Reply 24, posted (11 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

I was listening to a interview with Branson today on the radio, he indicated that he (if he aquired the Concorde) would set it up in a two class configuration.

First and Business?. How does he plan on doing that and making money on such a small aircraft.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
25 AvObserver : Sir Richard, whose Virgin Atlantic is a launch customer for the Airbus A380 super jumbo and the stretched Airbus A430-600 long-range jet, said: "I bel
26 Gordonroxburgh : OK, lets assume the manufactures and be cajoled into continuted support. If Branson thinks he can contribute to Concorde half the £40M that is being
27 STT757 : "If marketed properly we could easily see double daily flights to JFK on certain days". How about one daily to JFK and one to EWR, most major European
28 BusinessFlyer : According to the Financial Times, Airbus has already told Branson that it was "absolutely unrealistic" to keep Concorde flying. From the FT "... Noël
29 Sinlock : Can someone tell me, What hold does Airbus have over the Concorde program?
30 Cloudy : I suspect the talk over the Concord is just a stunt to deflect attention from the REAL issue - what becomes of the very valuable gates and slots that
31 Post contains images Arsenal@LHR : Err...........no Cloudy...Concorde is what they're talking about, slot's and gates play a part. Perserving the plane itself is what all this merry-go-
32 Carduelis : On the same vein - no apostrophe in slots! Cheers!
33 Donder10 : They are BA's slots aren't they not?
34 Gordonroxburgh : Concorde has 4 regular slots (EG BA1,2,3,4) at LHR + others for specials/engineering flight that can be used. These 4 will be BA slots and I guess the
35 ConcordeBoy : "How about one daily to JFK and one to EWR, most major European airlines offer service to both EWR and JFK. " Concorde had to face enough noise/pollut
36 STT757 : They fly into EWR several times a year on weather diversions, EWR's not exactly in a residential area. It's about 2 minutes further from JFK, across N
37 BA777 : GDB, So what will happen to Mike Bannister - will he retire? Henry
38 Vc10 : Mike Bannister is the manager for BA short haul fleet,not just Concorde so I suppose he will convert on to one of the other aircraft
39 G-CIVP : "British Airways and their shareholders owe these guys the chance to give it a go. If they are willing to take the risk, BA should also." Not going to
40 Post contains links David_itl : The UK Government has ruled out Branson's "rescue" operation. Patricia Hewitt is quoted as saying in a letter, ""It is not for the government to make
41 Shamrock_747 : It will be intersting to see which approach Branson uses to try and get his hands on Concorde now that the government have said they won't help. As pe
42 ThirtyEcho : If Branson can figure out a way to midair refuel Concorde, you have a whole different ball game. Then we are talking about Los Angeles-Sydney, Los Ang
43 Post contains images Donder10 : Difference:LHR-New York has about 20 dailies a day ,the others don't
44 Post contains images Leezyjet : "If Branson can figure out a way to midair refuel Concorde, you have a whole different ball game. Then we are talking about Los Angeles-Sydney, Los An
45 VC-10 : "VS has had all the chances that others have and made the best of it, BA owes VS nothing" BA had all its route start-up costs & its international infr
46 GDB : Maybe now Branson will stop raising the public's hopes, if his ego and addiction to PR allow him to. Next? "Big bad BA stopped me from operating Conco
47 BusinessFlyer : This whole Branson proposal appears stranger and stranger. According to the BBC, Branson based his claim on access to the Concordes on the argument th
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