Douglas DC-9 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 303 posts, RR: 2 Posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 4640 times:
As I'm sure you've already heard, Northwest just announced 6 non-stop flights to 6 locations out of Milwaukee in an attempt to kill Midwest Airlines formally Midwest Express. The only reason they are doing this is to kill off Midwest. Northworst sees Midwest Airlines as a weak and crippled carrier and will do anything to put it out of business. It would be different if Northworst was actually trying to play the honest game and not try to move into KMKE but they just see these times as an opportunity to kill off a competitor. They've done it before in the 70s and 80s and they are at it again! What scares me is that since the airline industry is at its worst point in history people are so worried about saving a buck they won't fly an airline with a higher price. Let's face it... Midwest is not the cheapest airline and in a world were something like a $40.00 price will change what airline a man will fly, even if the service is much worse! Milwaukee's Scott Walker is now giving Midwest money to stay alive, but why pay to help keep their heart beating if there is a chance they won't be around a year from now? But for those of you who haven't flown Midwest... fly them! They truly are "The best care in the air." All it takes is one flight to tell you!
You guys and gals tell me what you think about what I said and what are you opinions on this topic? I am outraged over this!
Tango-Bravo From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 3777 posts, RR: 30 Reply 2, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4563 times:
It would seem that NW's "enlightenment" to an urgent need to ramp up service at MKE with new non-stop routes that "just happen" to be served by YX is in reality a predatory move. If/when YX goes away, I'm betting that NW will immediately "discover" that their need to offer non-stops from MKE to their non-hub cities wasn't as urgent as they imagined it to be.
Sad but true fact concerning YX is that if there are not enough customers willing to pay the costs of the superior product they offer (or at least offered in the past) then YX must adapt to the realities of the market or they're gone -- regardless of the effects of NW's MKE strategy. From all indications, there are -- sadly -- not enough customers willing to pay the costs associated with the level of service for which YX is known; that will probably not change anytime soon, if ever.
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12047 posts, RR: 50 Reply 3, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 4557 times:
Why are you already writing them off? NWA did back in the 90's have a mini hub in MKE and both Midwest and NWA operated side by side. And we are only talking 6 new flights and of course the service to the hubs. Also the six new flights are only once a day. Think about this also if NWA see an opportunity then others could be looking as well to expand, namely AirTran?
Mnsourcer From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 44 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4494 times:
Although I am completely in agreement that it does appear as though NW might be working to hasten the demise of YX, and I certainly would hate to see YX disappear (or be taken over). I really do love that airline! Lets remember that their ability to do this is part of free enterprise. Ultimately, as you have eluded to, it is the consumers responsibility to keep YX alive as it would be with any company. If Midwest can't maintain its consumer's brand loyalty over $40 bucks, then they must give in to their competitor. That $40 buys some more room, better service, those delicious onboard baked cookies. The extra room not withstanding, these things are not as important to a consumer when the economy isn't at its best. That extra $40 is going to be more important, think of all the cookies I can buy with that!
I am not saying that NW isn't being predatory here. I am just saying that YX's business plan is going to hinder its ability to compete. I still hope that Milwaukee's citizens will rally around YX and help it through the tough road ahead. They can make the difference with their dollars, there is where the focus really needs to be.
By the way... I will still fly YX when ever I can... but flights are limited from MSP.
DeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 8825 posts, RR: 12 Reply 6, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4481 times:
It's pure capitalism. If Northwest can help its bottom line out by taking out a vulnerable carrier, then why not? Who knows if NW is going to show a commitment to MKE. I personally think they could get a market there, as I would prefer to take NW over YX, but who knows. It is the market that drives what actions any business takes.
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12047 posts, RR: 50 Reply 9, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4378 times:
Midwest served DTW for a while back in the late 80's early 90's. Also numerous times I have tried to fly them out of CLE and because of really lousy schedules I have never had the chance. Maybe if they corrected the holes in there schedule they could attract more customers.
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12047 posts, RR: 50 Reply 13, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4343 times:
Well I think it is a good article shows both sides. Also points out what I have been saying, is that NWA is beefing up in MKE to send a message to AirTran that they will not give them MKE. If Midwest is so good at what they do then what do they have to worry about? Although I have heard that they are not as good onboard as they use to be, service wise and also the food they fed you.
IMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined May 2001, 6246 posts, RR: 36 Reply 14, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4329 times:
"Can someone please offer the legal definition of "predatory"?"
Sure. When a company uses it's deep pockets to undersell the competition to drive it out of business then, after succeeding, raising prices to the old level. This has been tested in several courts over the years. Remember BN MkI? They failed but still lost the case to WN.
Is grammar no longer taught is schools? Saying "me and her" or some such implies illiteracy.
Trvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 22 Reply 17, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4237 times:
Turning this issue into an argument over whether Northwest is "playing fair" with their expansion in MKE totally misses the point, I think. Arguing over such particulars is a waste of time. What really matters to the people of Milwaukee is this move will affect them down the road. Northwest may have just been carrying out the duties of free-market capitalism with their latest move, but does the label of predatory or non-predatory really matter? If NWA succeeds in shutting down Midwest, then you can bet that Milwaukee won't retain the level of service it had before the fall of YX and the NW expansion. The city would become the vassal of the cartel carriers.
In short, Milwaukee should do everything within reason to keep Midwest alive and the competing carriers at bay. If not, Wisconsinites will soon find themselves bereft of decent travel options, and at the mercy of bigger carriers like Northwest. This is certainly not an outcome that benefits Milwaukee in the long term.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4424 posts, RR: 35 Reply 19, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4216 times:
Northwest's moves are unlikely to intimidate AirTran, should FL want to expand at MKE. They hub at Atlanta right under Uncle Leo's nose, for goodness sake; they won't fear Big Red any more than they fear the Big Bad Widget.
AirTran's likeliest expansion possibilities at MKE, I think, are continued growth on the ATL route and Florida. Northwest isn't going to make money serving Orlando against FL, they might as well not bother throwing the money away. It's a low-yield route to begin with, and FL does very well with its many links from MCO to medium-size cities.
There's currently no low-fare service between Milwaukee and the New York area, and AirTran has been linking medium-size markets to LGA. If they entered MKE-LGA with two daily 717's, they'd have twice as business-friendly a schedule as Northwest offers. And of course Midwest offers more dailies than that on the route now. And of course AirTran is just starting to link Milwaukee with the DC area, so NY would be logical next step.
Captcjmac From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 86 posts, RR: 0 Reply 20, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4215 times:
The thing that really makes me upset about NW is the fact that IF Midwest were to go under, NW would pull out all of these non-stop flights that it is now adding, forcing everybody to go through MSP/DTW/MEM again like they do now. They have every right to do it but this is certainly a David vs. Goliath situation. I know everybody in MKE is rooting for David and I just hope that they will stay loyal to Midwest and not sell-out to NW.
Braniff727 From United States of America, joined Sep 2000, 686 posts, RR: 1 Reply 21, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4132 times:
Um, yeah so I guess the government should come in here and stop competition. It isn't fair that one business is trying to make money! HOW DARE THEY!
I personally think this is less about Midwest and more about AirTran and United. Let's wait to see how this is marketed by Northwest. MKE, being only an hour North of Chicago could be a way to hurt UA and AA by offering cheaper fares at an airport with much less congestion just a short drive away.
Either way, NW may seem like a bully, but Southwest and jetBlue can do the same thing. It's called smart business, and staying ahead of your competitors.
Jeffrito From United States of America, joined May 2001, 133 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 4087 times:
Several posts imply that free markets have good outcomes in the airline business. The airline business, like utilities, agriculture, health care, and several others (for different reasons), is not a great example of an ideal free market.
It has to do with the very high fixed costs and the tendency toward natural monopolies in smaller markets. I'm no expert, but there is plenty of scholarly literature on the subject, not to mention the obvious real-world experiences.
This is why predatory practices in this industry have legitmately been recognized in courts.
Luv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12047 posts, RR: 50 Reply 23, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 4071 times:
Again like the article mentioned it is number 2 after SEA for all non hub cities in revenue! So why not increase the level of service if the market is they for them. If people love Midwest they will continue to support them. If people want NWA they now have more choices, although only once a day and only to 6 cities.
Tom in NO From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 7194 posts, RR: 38 Reply 24, posted (10 years 7 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 4009 times:
If you want to look at a company that thrives on setting up shop, and quashing the little guy, look no further than Wal-Mart. I'm not their biggest fan, especially when I see what they've done to the small businessman. But, I will say this: rare is the time when I go into Wal-Mart, and leave needing something I couldn't find there.
That said, wasn't deregulation designed to encourage free market competition? I think we all (those of us who were around when dereg went into effect) had the feeling that it would create a "survival of the fittest" atmosphere in the airline industry. After all, AA successfully got rid of BN, the PA/NA merger was a joke, CO's been through 2 bankruptcies...the list goes on.
Now, as I feel about Wal-Mart, I can say the same about Midwest Express. Will I be sorry to see them go, if and when that happens.....of course I will. But that is what the market is like these days. We said it over 20 years ago, and it holds true today.
Tom in NO (at MSY)
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
25 Hammer: Why don't we talk about the new paint job and there DC-9 fleet some more too...
26 Luv2fly: I like the new paint job and the DC-9's need to be retired as they are gas hogs. Also they should get back to what they did best, service! And have fa
27 Mnsourcer: The thing that really makes me upset about NW is the fact that IF Midwest were to go under, NW would pull out all of these non-stop flights that it is
28 Redngold: Luv2Fly -- Midwest was forced to downsize its operation at CLE. YX used to offer mainline service, but due to gate leases (it shared a multi-use gate
29 EssentialPowr: So what? It's called competition, and in a free market the ultimate benefit goes to the consumer. If a critical mass of consumers don't support Midwes
30 Continental: Competition!? My ass, try domination! NWA rules their hubs, and if someone tries to get in, it's goodbye charlie for that airline. What do you mean th
31 Sllevin: This is 6 whole flights we're talking about! If Midwest is SO vulnerable, then it's likely they aren't going to survive. NW is entitled to try and rai
32 Tekelberry: Finally, some cometition in MKE!! There has been little to no competition for YX's nonstop flights from MKE (except ATL, BWI, MCO). YX thinks they can
33 Luv2fly: Could it also be the fact that NWA knows where the passengers want to fly to via the joint Frequent Flyer agreement that Midwest and NWA both had and
34 Continental: That's like Continental Airlines starting 15 routes out of Dallas Love! co
35 EssentialPowr: Continental, why is it such a personal issue for you? Idealistic youth is certainly different than free market capitalism... CAL tried 6-8 flights a d
36 Rj777: Maybe they'll (Midwest) make OMA their new hub...
37 Luv2fly: My whole take on this is, why is everyone already counting Midwest out? We are talking about NWA adding a total of 6 flights with a single round trip
38 Continental: Essential, have I made this a personal issue?! I don't know what you are talking about, I'm just saying that NWA does like to compete, and it's goals
39 Luv2fly: All airlines compete! Look at DL/Song going against JetBlue AA and JetBlue And again it is only 6 round trip flight TOTAL!
40 DeltAirlines: What NWA is doing is completely admirable, and I support them 100% on this. The business world is not all hugs and kisses...it's to make money. Simple
41 Ilyushin96M: I don't think Northwest will succeed, no matter how low their fares go. Midwest is head and shoulders above them in terms of customer service and comf
42 A330_DTW: If K-Mart opened a store in a town where shoppers only had a Saks Fifth Avenue at which to shop, would this be predatory?
43 Luv2fly: Good analogy. I do think if Midwest service levels had not slipped as of late, NWA would not as quick to come into MKE. Really other than one less sea
44 EssentialPowr: Continental, "I'm just saying that NWA does like to compete, and it's goals are usually to shut out the other airline completely." Then maybe you're g
45 Douglas DC-9: Thanks for answering ya'll! i didn't think anybody would! Thanks Much, DC-9-32
46 A330_DTW: Most of the large "non-discount" airlines do everything in their power to shut the competition out of their so-called "fortress hubs". Being that MKE
47 AWA22: YX is not all that great. I did not find their seat's to be all that comfortable and the leg room was not that great when I flew them from PHX to MKE
48 Tekelberry: "1st class on HP was far better then YX service was." Yes, but first class on any airline is ridiculously more expensive than YX's fares.
49 AWA22: Adult $486.50 YX $263+150 to upgrade day of= 413 on HP still cheaper then YX I used June 18th and June 20th to price these two carriers. So first is n
50 Northwest_guy: Hmmm, I didn't realize that it was against the law for Northwest to operate a few daily flights out of Milwaukee. I'm so glad you set me straight on t
51 Tekelberry: PHX is one of YX's most expensive and less traveled routes. YX usually matches the non-stop competition's price out of MKE. They aren't as expensive a
52 Commander Data: I've been on then MKE-PHX and PHX-MKE route literally 100's of times throughout my life time, and that route is 9 times out of 10 full or almost. Atle
53 Cloudy: Hmmm, I didn't realize that it was against the law for Northwest to operate a few daily flights out of Milwaukee. I'm so glad you set me straight on t
54 L-188: The only reason they are doing this is to kill off Midwest This is hardly something new. NW puts agents in front of other carriers ticket counter in o
55 A330_DTW: At ORD, UA had managers/agents whatever, standing at the NW WBC line and checking customers' tickets during the ORD/NRT checking. If a customer was on
56 Lowfareair: >>Interesting to note, however, when a low-fare carrier comes into a market dominated by one airline it's called competition or "alternative choice".