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CX Wants US-UK Routes If VS Gets HK-Aust  
User currently offlineBkkair From Thailand, joined Aug 2001, 409 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3868 times:

Probably never happen but ........

Full article:
http://www.thestandard.com.hk/thestandard/news_detail_frame.cfm?articleid=38833&intcatid=1

Cathay Pacific Airways believes British rival Virgin Atlantic will face an uphill struggle to win rights to fly between Hong Kong and Australia by the end of this year.

Cathay Pacific general manager for international relations Andrew Pyne said yesterday that, unlike previous air services agreements, any new deals had to be open to any airline operated by a European citizen.

Pyne said that, if there were negotiations between Britain and Hong Kong with a view to letting Virgin fly from Hong Kong to Australia, then Cathay Pacific would want rights across the North Atlantic from Britain to the US.

``Cathay Pacific has been seeking the rights from the UK to the US for a long time,'' Pyne said. He said that, while Virgin wanted Hong Kong-Australia rights, ``Virgin has been instrumental in blocking open skies between the UK and the US''.





44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRupertvander82 From France, joined Dec 2002, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3816 times:

I don't see any reason why CX will get rights to fly UK-US routes if Virgin gets HKG-Australia routes. There are so many other airlines that have been fighting for those routes, and even SIA is not granted the rights. This comes even so when BA is allowed flights from SIN-Australia.

User currently offlineDocpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3816 times:

British Airways flies 14 times a week from Singapore to Sydney/Melbourne. In exchange for that, Singapore Airlines does not get rights from LHR to the US.

So that withstanding, why on earth would the UK let CX fly LHR-USA in exchange for VS flying daily from HKG to SYD?????


User currently offlineAlpere1 From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 134 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3783 times:

Likewise, Why on earth would China let VS fly HKG - SYD? or even Australia let VS fly HKG-SYD?

User currently offlineHkg82 From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2002, 1322 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 years 7 months 2 weeks ago) and read 3808 times:

It's not a fair process, unfortunately. And yes, SIA has wanted to do SIN-LHR-JFK-LHR-SIN for a very long time, and even though the Singapore Government has allowed BA to make SIN their Asian hub for flights to Australia, the British Government has not given SQ the necessary fifth freedom rights needed to operate LHR-USA flights.

Well, considering a British-based firm owns Cathay Pacific (that firm is Swire Pacific), maybe there could be another angle to this, since this will be benefiting a UK firm? You can’t rule it out.

It's too bad politics & aviation are so intertwined.

Hkg82.


User currently offlineB-HOP From Hong Kong, joined Nov 2000, 656 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think BA allow to pick up any pax in Singapore to Aus apart from their own. Sir Branson has done a very good job though, come to HK in person and met officals.


Live life to max!!!
User currently offlineHkg82 From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2002, 1322 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3755 times:

China plays no part in HK signing an aviation services agreement with another country, despite the fact that under the “One Country, Two Systems” framework, China assumes full authority over HK in only the foreign (state) & defense matters. Nonetheless, China has given HK full backing in any aviation packs the territory signs or may sign with another country.

The benefits to Chek Lap Kok & the people of HK are obvious. Competition has decreased & prices have gone up on the HK- Australia route as there are only two airlines that offer services between the two countries: Cathay Pacific & Qantas. Ansett used to fly between HKG & SYD with the 744 (not sure about MEL – can anyone confirm?) before they collapsed. CLK will seen an increase in the volume of transit passengers as those in the UK or the rest of Europe who wish to travel on VS to Australia will transit in HKG.

It’s only fair that if VS is allowed to do HKG-SYD-HKG that CX is to be allowed to operate whatever fifth freedom flights they want out of LHR (subject to the same frequency of flights as VS of course. Picky negotiations!) But it’s the UK Government after all, slow & inefficient, and in this case, MOST unfair!

Britair: Yes BA is allowed to pick up passengers in Singapore for their onward flights Australia.

Hkg82.


User currently offlineCaptaink From Mexico, joined May 2001, 5109 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3738 times:

I can see Cathay Pacific's point.. It seems pretty fair. WHy should a Birith Carrier get route rights for aisan routes, leaving the aisian carrier to compete with them only in that area and not others? That would give VS an edge. Routes rights exchange would be in order.


There is something special about planes....
User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 8, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3728 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Politics aside, where are the slots for UK-US flights?



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineDocpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1971 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3711 times:

Britair I've flown BA from Singapore to Brisbane before! They gave up Singapore-PER and Singapore-BNE for Singapore-SYD and Singapore-MEL which they operate currently.

If I'm not wrong, BA originally wanted to operate Singapore-SYD and Singapore-MEL IN ADDITION TO Singapore-PER and Singapore-BNE. But the Singapore govt said no to that until SQ could do a daily LHR-JFK flight.

Imagine that..... Singapore asking for 7 flights a week out of Heathrow in return for BA getting 28 slots to Australia ex Singapore. Isn't that a great deal?

PS: Why is it when I type "S.I.N" the server changes it to IN/WSSS blah blah blah blah?


User currently offlineHkg82 From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2002, 1322 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3713 times:

Let's hope Swire Pacific pulls a few strings with the British Government.  Big grin

Ultimately I would love to see CX servicing JFK 3 times daily: 1x daily 744 HKG-YVR-JFK-YVR-HKG, HKG-JFK-HKG 1x daily A346 and HKG-LHR-JFK-LHR-HKG 1x daily with the 744! It’s not too outlandish if you think about it.

Hkg82.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 6054 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3653 times:

The question that also needs to be taken into account is that of the slots at LHR (aren't we already discussing this?). There are currently no more slots available, so CX and/or SQ would have to secure a new pair of slots from someone (their alliance partners?) or sacrifice some of their own.

The puzzle would be interesting though, since the aircraft at one point would have to spend quite a bit of time on the ground (on the other hand, they already do).


User currently offlineAirzim From Zimbabwe, joined Jun 2001, 1238 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

The US will never allow it anyway. Keep dreaming

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16907 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3600 times:

The slots are already there, all these airlines are asking for is rights to fly onto the US, instead of just turning around and flying back to Asia.

There's no need for new slots since they would use their existing slots.

And I agree, there can be no disscussion of this unless there's progress in getting DL and CO into Heathrow.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSenliture From Australia, joined May 2000, 431 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3597 times:

one point is, why CX has to follow SQ? I mean why can't CX gains something that SQ doesn't has?

Senliture


User currently offlineBritair From United Kingdom, joined Aug 1999, 933 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3578 times:

Hello!! Just to clarify it was B-HOP who asked whether BA had traffic rights between Singapore and Australia, not me!!!  Smile I think I know the in's and out's of the Kangaroo Route and the JSA better than most having worked for BA and Qantas both in Australia and here in the UK.

Cheers  Smile


User currently offlineHkg82 From Hong Kong, joined Apr 2002, 1322 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3572 times:

oops, sorry Britair, and apologies to B-HOP too! I don't know why I got the names mixed-up. Silly me

Hkg82.


User currently offlineArsenal@LHR From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2001, 7792 posts, RR: 19
Reply 17, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3538 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The slots are already there, all these airlines are asking for is rights to fly onto the US, instead of just turning around and flying back to Asia.

No they are not there. LHR is the most congested airport in the world in terms of slot co-ordination. In order for CX to fly UK-US flights it would need at least 7-10 slots a week to start a viable service, but they don't exist.



In Arsene we trust!!
User currently offlineVS11 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 1111 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

And I recall reading somewhere that the Hong Kong government would be inclined to let VS fly to Australia as they need higher pax numbers to pay off for the new airport.

Regards,
VS11


User currently offlineDanialanwar From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3507 times:

from experience BA has full right on their SIN - Australia routes, as has QF on their SIN - Europe routes. Put that together, time for SQ to be allowed JFK - LHR - SIN - SYD - LAX. What a great way to fly JFK-LAX but if UA goes under that maybe the only StarAlliance direct flight available then ...


Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3423 times:

BD will absolutely sh!t on itself if it sees yet another airline get LHR-USA rights... but that's Bermuda2, so little could actually be done about it Big grin

User currently offlineIkarus From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 3524 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3405 times:

OK, so if Air India, Kuwait Airways, Pakistan International Airlines and Air New Zealand can offer UK-US routes, why not allow others, too? Just tell CX they can get it if they use another airport instead of LHR...  Big grin

Either way, let's hope Virgin get the rights they want. It's about time...


User currently offlineGARUDAROD From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 1524 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3357 times:



Somebody explain to me how a British Carrier flying between China
and Australia warrants a Chinese Carrier to fly from the US to UK????
What does the US carriers get out of this?????
Now if this was a US carrier that wanted to fly HK/AUST, then I could
see the argument.



Cargo doesn't whine, moan, or complain
User currently offlineAirplanetire From United States of America, joined May 2001, 1809 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3342 times:

I don't believe this is about what the US carriers get from it. This would bring competition to CX if another airline had fifth freedom rights on its services between HKG and SYD. That particular airline is Virgin, which of course is a British airline. I guess Hong Kong figures that if another airline gets to take a slice of the pie on the HKG-Australia market, then they should get a slice of the pie on the UK-US market, a very lucrative one. If I were CX, I'd do the same.

User currently offlineAussiestu From Australia, joined Mar 2001, 780 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (11 years 7 months 1 week 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3334 times:


If CX and VS both gots their rights would BA then be able to codeshare with CX to USA from UK? Or would this be opening another can of worms, they dont seem to be able to codeshare with AA just yet!


25 GARUDAROD : Airplanetire, My point exactly. IF CX gets competition on the HKG/AUST route, what makes them think they deserve access on the US/UK routes? There is
26 Post contains images Leezyjet : Lets put things in perspective here, From HKG-SYD there are 2 carriers flying the route - CX and QF. From LHR-JFK there are 6 carriers flying the rout
27 CPH-R : A thing that I've been wondering about: What will the overall flying time be, flying LHR-HKG-SYD compared to flying LHR-SIN-SYD?
28 United Airline : Well Air New Zealand is operating between LAX and LHR. Also SQ has a few transatlantic flights as well.
29 CPH-R : Yeah, but SQ haven't got access to the lucrative market that LHR is. They fly from Amsterdam and Frankfurt and what else, but no LHR yet.
30 Arsenal@LHR : SQ has been lobbying the British govt' for years to fly LHR-USA, but with no success, it has got clearance from US authorities though. Can't see CX be
31 STT757 : There's demand for US-Heathrow flights, it's "slot controlled" so it earns premiums.
32 Cx flyboy : How about all the routes the US carriers already fly out of Hong Kong to non-US destinations carrying freight and passengers? Is that not justificatio
33 Buckfifty : Okay... a) This whole issue revolves around the language of the Bermuda 2 agreement, and principally revolves around Heathrow itself. The limitation i
34 STT757 : "How about all the routes the US carriers already fly out of Hong Kong to non-US destinations carrying freight and passengers? Is that not justificati
35 9V-SVE : Doesn't CX also fly to Singapore via Bangkok or Jakarta too?
36 Post contains images QANTAS747 : Just to point out how CX can get the slots at LHR. You know that thing commonly called the concorde. Without the concorde flying across the atlantic,
37 Cx flyboy : STT757, My apologies. You are right, CX does indeed carry pax between YVR and JFK. That's one, but it would be nice to have more than that one! 9V-SVE
38 Red Panda : Sometimes I do not understand why HK government gives out the fifth freedom rights to US carriers so easily without forcing US gov't to give HK carrie
39 B-HOP : Shame our LEGCO member always said HK aviation market is restricted, CX is well protected and that we should have full 'open sky' like Singapore. What
40 Buckfifty : The U.S. and HK already have an open skies agreement. It's just that CX does not want to fly to places like Dubuque, Iowa.
41 Rednose : Perhaps someone can explain to me why VS (or any of the others) cannot do it via JNB. I did it last year, flying LHR - JNB with SAA and then JNB - SYD
42 SAA201 : A bit off topic: At one stage a few years ago, BA and QF were talking about "wet-leasing" each other's aircraft to increase utilisation. The plan was
43 Travelin man : Sometimes I do not understand why HK government gives out the fifth freedom rights to US carriers so easily without forcing US gov't to give HK carrie
44 ConcordeBoy : The U.S. and HK already have an open skies agreement Where do people keep coming up with this idea from? There is not an Open Skies agreement between
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