Sponsor Message:
Civil Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
AirCanada Planning Early Exit From Bankruptcy  
User currently offlineBmacleod From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2264 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3153 times:

Well Robbie Milton seems to be planning to taking AC out of bankruptcy sooner than expected.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=840&ncid=737&e=9&u=/nm/20030522/wl_canada_nm/canada_airlines_airlayoffs_col


The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLYYUL From Italy, joined Jun 2000, 4979 posts, RR: 51
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3106 times:

According to Canada.com

Milton wants to cut another 7800 jobs at Air Canada..

This guy has got to go.

Mark


User currently offlineAC320 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

Well air Canada does need to tighten its belt somewhat. The airline's girth is simply way too big for what it does.

User currently offlineSuperdawg From Canada, joined Jan 2000, 347 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

Air Canada has one of the highest employee to plane ratios in the industry. It is overstaffed in comparison to an airline like Lufthansa who have more planes but less emloyees. It simply doesn't need the number of management and staff it has right now.

It is sad though for those who have to lose their jobs from an airline that has been mismanaged from the day it went private. Buying out Canadian didn't help it out either with all the costs involved and the extra staff brought on.


User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3013 times:

While everyone says you cannot shrink yourself to profitability, there are simply too many AC employees. This isn't an excercise in trimming the fat, this is removing entire limbs, but it's necessary to avoid a shutdown.


buhh bye
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

It is very sad for the employees currently at Air Canada who will lose their jobs, but it must be done. Thing is too, the majority of these employees will not get anything remotely as good anywhere else, and will be earning much less money elsewhere, if they find anything.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2907 times:

It is very sad for the employees currently at Air Canada who will lose their jobs, but it must be done.

Ironically, the AC unions are as much to blame as AC mgmt for the current bankruptcy of AC. Perhaps if the AC unionized employees had elected less militant union reps that were more willing to look at flexible work rules etc, AC would not be in bankruptcy now.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineNa From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10707 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

Every big shot currently thinks firing people is the way to go. Shareholders applaud and raise his salary.
Strange world, but this is also the best way to loose customers forever.
Car companies fire people. Unemployed don´t buy cars. Airlines fire people, unemployed don´t fly and so on. How do these guys think the economical recovery should start if every CEO does the same? With the money of millions of unemployed people having the time and money to spend months in the Caribbean?


User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2786 times:

AC is nowhere near the bankruptcy exit. In fact, I've just heard on the news that the hypothesis of liquidation is being considered very seriously.

[Edited 2003-05-23 17:51:34]


Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 2772 times:

Na, you are looking from a macro-perspective, while Air Canada is looking at a micro-perspective. It is true that when a large company such as Air Canada lays off workers, there are effects that are felt, as less money is thrown into the system, and less will come back. But let's look at it this way. Air Canada currently spends more than they make. They are putting more into the system then they are receiving. They now have to find ways to not only spend less money, but generate more revenue. Not an easy task, but unfortunately cutting labour expenses is one of many ways they can do it. It's no secret that Air Canada is currently overstaffed, so as sad as it is for each individual that gets laid off, they must take this step.




"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2752 times:

Nice logic NA...the difference between car industry employees and airline employees is that even though car people enjoy discounts on cars, airline employees travel for FREE. How does free employee travel help the bottom line?


buhh bye
User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2703 times:

According to Canada.com

Milton wants to cut another 7800 jobs at Air Canada..

This guy has got to go
LOL,why does he have to go?Unlike the unions,Milton appears to be awake to what is actually happening at AC(finally).AC is over-staffed due to the inflexible nature of its labour contracts which the unions seem averse to changing so job cuts will have to be implemented.Sad but AC are a loss-making entity after all.



User currently offlineQb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2695 times:

Just read that the Caisse de Dépôt et Placement du Québec sold all the AC shares it had, losing millions in the process. "And now, the end is near, and so I face, the final curtain"...


Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
User currently offlineRamprat From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 188 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

Lymann,

Just so you know, we Air Canada employees do not fly free. Yes it is discounted, but definitely not free.


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2644 times:

Ramprat, Lymanm has a point. Eventhough it's reduced, and true that Air Canada does generate revenue from staff travel, it hardly helps profitability, and would not be a consideration as to if staff should be kept or not.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineRamprat From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 188 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

As stated by Lymann,

Nice logic NA...the difference between car industry employees and airline employees is that even though car people enjoy discounts on cars, airline employees travel for FREE. How does free employee travel help the bottom line?



We, same as the car people enjoy discounts, but it is not free, as was stated by Lymann. I am not saying we should keep employees because we dont fly free, just correcting an oversight. I am of the opinion, we should have just let Canadian go to their grave, then we wouldn't be in as deep as we are now. Yes, it would have put alot of people out of jobs, but thats exactly whats happening now anyways. We would probably still be hurting, but not to the degree we are now.


User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2589 times:

Air Canada is decreasing in size to what they were before the purchase of Canadi>n. In the end, you are right. Didn't get ahead at all.


"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineSquigee From Canada, joined May 2001, 652 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2577 times:

Donder -

Milton has to go because the guy was at the helm while the ship drifted into the rocks. It was his managerial bungling that got Air Canada into this mess. Rather than making careful business decisions about fleet rationalization, route frequency and pricing, he focused all the companies' energy and money into killing off the competition. Rather than improve the quality and cost-effectiveness of Air Canada, he instead spent his time getting rid of competing airlines (Canada 3000 to name but one...). Tango and Zip were bad ideas, as was the massive and costly rebranding of Jazz. (I won't spend time backing this up, because I've done it so many other times in other posts, do a search if you want).

I'm not going to say that the Unions have no fault in this. In fact, they bear a great deal of the blame. Everyone knows that the contracts and benefits at Air Canada are far to rich for this economic climate, and their unwillingness to compromise at the bargaining table ultimately causes their downfall. It's happened many times that union solidarity and pride leads to the unemployment line.

Bottom line- Milton guided the company from profitability and a monopoly, to a near bankruptcy. I feel that it's sad his staff has to pay the price, but it's only fair that he resigns as well.



Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
User currently offlineKdonohue From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 374 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2530 times:

Squigee,

You don't really think that Canada 3000's demise was the result of Air Canada, do you?

Didn't C3000 get a little too big, too quick?



User currently offlineSquigee From Canada, joined May 2001, 652 posts, RR: 4
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

Kdonohue,

You are right, that was a major factor. Canada 3000 was trying to grow pretty quick to fill a niche that Canadian left, but more importantly, they switched from Charter to Scheduled services. At the time, a lot of analysts were questioning how wise that decision was. I remember listening to an interview with a transportation analyst who said "if they make this switch, there is no question in my mind it will be greatly detrimental to the company". I guess he was right!

Ultimately, however, it was Tango that put the last nail in the coffin. They competed on routes head to head, and with financial assistance from the mother company, Tango could put it's fares as low as it wanted without worrying about cost margins and profitability of routes. In my opinion (which is shared with quite a few others), without Tango, Canada 3000 would most likely still be around. It obviously wasn't a strong company if the introduction of a competitor could sink it, but it probably could have survived.

I'm sure, however, that there is someone who used to work at the company who can directly comment, I'm just the monday morning quarterback...  Big grin



Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
User currently offlineSlawko From Canada, joined May 1999, 3799 posts, RR: 9
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2487 times:

OH please!!!! Tango was around for what? a month before C3 went under??? Canada 3's demise was no ones fault but their own, they knew in August that the company was finished, its just that they didnt run out of cash until November...and with no established line of credit no one would give them any money....


"Clive Beddoe says he favours competition, but his actions do not support that idea." Robert Milton - CEO Air Canada
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16248 posts, RR: 56
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2480 times:

Actually, Tango started on Nov 1/01....8 days before the C3 demise. Tango was just an excuse by Angus to deflect blame from his own many failures.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSquigee From Canada, joined May 2001, 652 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Don't write off Tango's impact on C3 too fast... While it is true that Tango was launched on November 1, 2001, the official announcement of the airline was made in August of 2001. Tickets on the airline were being booked from October 11th onward. Taking into account that C3 declared bankruptcy on November 16, 2001, that gives us 37 days that Tango was operating while C3 was too.

I would not say that the sole factor causing C3's demise was the introduction of Tango, far from it. They were plagued with staff, management, and market related problems that probably would have finished them off without Tango. But it can be safely said that the airline did exacerbate C3's problems.

But, I digress, of course. This topic is about Air Canada's troubles, and they have lots of troubles to discuss without bringing in the woes of other airlines as well, no?  Big grin



Someday, we'll look back at this, laugh nervously, and then change the subject.
User currently offlineCaptaingomes From Canada, joined Feb 2001, 6413 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

"they knew in August that the company was finished"

If they knew in August that the company was finished, why were they hiring pilots in November? Why didn't they lay off in September when everybody else laid off? I think there is more to the story and they closed C3 on their own will with better opportunities elsewhere.

In any event, I've seen details of what the unions are prepared to give to Air Canada for at least the flight attendants, and to say the least, there are a lot of cuts. From what I gather, at the very minimum, there will be 1,500 plus f/a's out of jobs, and that figure is apparantly conservative. Pilot layoffs will likely run in the 400+ range, although please keep in mind, these are rumours!



"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
User currently offlineCrj 900 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 594 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 months 1 week 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

Now that Jazz has an agreement, they are talking about pulling us out of CCAA before mainline. If so and the pilots union at AC doesn't agree to the take it or leave deal given to them last week we could very well see a Canadian version of Crossair/Swissair. Before any of you start telling me that it's impossible. remember we have a deal already they don't. All they need to do is piss off the judge again( and he knows these ACPA clowns) and that's it.

25 Captaingomes : I've seen people mention the Crossair/Swissair example, but what does that mean exactly? How are Crossair/Swissair any different from AC/Jazz, AA/Eagl
26 Crj 900 : swissair(mainline) went bankrupt and crossair(regional) survived and took over what was left to become the new mainline carrier.
27 Yyz717 : When Swissair was shut down, Crossair relaunched a slimmed-down Swissair (with the approval of the Swiss govt & bankruptcy courts) under "Swiss Air Li
28 CanadianPylon : Crj 900 swissair(mainline) went bankrupt and crossair(regional) survived and took over what was left to become the new mainline carrier. If I remember
29 FLYYUL : Just annnounced.. Air Canada has reached a deal with the CAW..... the details of this representing 9,600 employees will be brought forward live at 1pm
30 Captaingomes : Thanks for the replies yyz and crj! I've seen details of the CUPE proposal, and it's very big. They are outlined elsewhere on the web, but in 10 minut
31 Crj 900 : Well Canadianpylon, the same was said about CRAL and CP but CRAL was making tons of cash. They use that to offset the mainline's books and then they c
32 Captaingomes : Sorry .... I was a bit confused there. It's the CAW deal that was outlined in the news release, and I have seen the CUPE, not CAW deal.
33 Post contains links Bmacleod : A deal with AC flight attendants has just been announced. http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/05/28/aircanada_030528
34 Captaingomes : Thanks for posting that article! I'm surprised the article didn't go into more details regarding the F/A deal. I have seen on the weekend some of the
35 Yyz717 : What does this mean to many pilots? Say a pilot is a captain on the A330 and gets demoted to f/o. This captain will of course lose the pay premium tha
36 Captaingomes : Neil, I do agree with you, I was just outlining the rumours that I read and hear regarding pay for Air Canada pilots. The pilots who keep their jobs b
37 Yyz717 : Well, I would argue that if the AC 319/320 pilots are still making more than their equivalents at Westjet & Jetsgo, then they will still be overpaid (
38 Post contains links Samurai 777 : It's just been announced that AC's reached a deal with all unions, except the ACPA. Not surprising, given the rocky relationship AC's had with its pil
39 Yyz717 : what implications will there be if AC is unable to reach a deal with the pilots? There is no limit. A shutdown of AC & subsequent liquidation is a ver
40 Captaingomes : I don't think there will be any problems with ACPA reaching a deal with Air Canada. I can see many of the seniors voting no, because they are the ones
41 Captaingomes : "This is not the proper benchmark. The benchmark is at what salary levels & revenue levels can Canadian airlines make money. If Canadian yields are lo
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
United Considering Early Exit From Bankruptcy posted Wed May 21 2003 08:05:50 by *HighFlyah*
ATA Emerges From Bankruptcy Today posted Wed Mar 1 2006 01:26:24 by KarlB737
United To Emerge From Bankruptcy Protection posted Wed Feb 1 2006 11:02:47 by Nighthawk
Judge Approves ATA's Emergence From Bankruptcy posted Mon Jan 30 2006 21:54:20 by Leelaw
Chances Of NW & DL Emerging From Bankruptcy? posted Thu Sep 15 2005 11:21:06 by Squirrel83
When Is UA Ever Emerging From Bankruptcy? posted Fri May 6 2005 16:14:22 by Chazzerguy
Arrow Air Is Ready To Ascend From Bankruptcy posted Wed Feb 16 2005 19:10:05 by LatinAviation
When Will UAL Exit From Chapter 11? posted Fri Jan 16 2004 04:45:36 by United Airline
HA Getting Ok From Bankruptcy Judge posted Sun Sep 7 2003 20:58:10 by FLIBOYZ
Delta Flew Out Of Early Morning From FCO-ATL posted Sat Apr 19 2003 14:57:24 by ScottysAir