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Early Transatlantic Crossings - A Few Questions  
User currently offlineRw774477 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1061 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

1. Did any of the props ever fly non-stop from mainland Europe to NYC ?

2. What were the first jets to fly these same routes ?

3. I know the props gassed up @ SNN and some at Gander also ... did they get there almost full and top off or almost empty and get a full tank ?

4. Did any airlines operate more than 1 flight per day ?

rw774477

16 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineGr8slvrflt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1592 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2885 times:

The Douglas DC-7C offered the first nonstop in both directions, year round in 1956. The Lockheed 1649 Starliner was able to offer U.S. West Coast to Europe nonstop in 1957; the Britannia started the same year. Nonstop jet service began in 1959 (Boeing 707-320) and 1960 (DC-8-30). BTW, DZR offered the first scheduled nonstop Europe to NYC service in 1936 with the Hindenburg. Pan Am's Boeing Clippers began flying to Europe in 1939 with fuel stops in the Azores.

User currently offlineCptkrell From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3219 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

I'm entirely sure you aren't asking about the Graf Zeppelin and Hindenburg  Smile/happy/getting dizzy, so, as far as I know, the first regularly scheduled non-stop transatlantic passenger flight was in August, 1947 (NY-London) on a PAA Connie...Jack


all best; jack
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2781 times:

I believe if you're asking flying between New York City and London or Paris non-stop in both directions, they started in the middle 1950's with longer-range versions of the DC-7 and Constellation became available. Before that time, planes plying this route either had to stop in Gander or Shannon to refuel.

When BOAC started its LHR-IDL-LHR service with the Comet 4 jet airliner in late 1958, the plane could fly eastbound non-stop but had to stop in Gander westbound. Small wonder why the 707-320B became popular for transatlantic routes, because it could fly from western Europe to IDL non-stop year-round.


User currently offlineZrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3011 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2769 times:

Interestingly, the original 707's couldn't always make the westbound flight nonstop!


14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2717 times:

Dear Zrs70 -
The first PanAm 707s in late 1958 were the 121, not the 321 intercontinental, the 321 were delivered only a year later - the first 321 was N714PA... I flew that airplane in my early days when it was near retirement...
xxx
It took the 321B (with fan engines and increased weight) to really say that the flights could carry full load and ample reserves. PanAm had a few DC8-30 but these were far from able to compete with the early 321s, the DC8 were slower too... the old timers at PanAm called them the DC-Late...
xxx
(s) Skipper  Smile


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6707 posts, RR: 7
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

As everyone knows PA started 707-121 flights in 10/58 but didn't fly the -321 transatlantic until late 1959. With the -121 the Paris-NY flights always needed at least one stop. Yes, at least one-- dunno why, but some flights did stop twice. I'll check, but as I recall the London-NY flights were nonstop maybe one time out of four.

The DC-7C and 1649 were the first airliners to reliably make the westbound nonstop, but earlier airliners could do it at least occasionally. After all, a DC-6B flew nonstop LA (Long Beach?) to Paris in 1953.


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2559 times:

Can you guys imagine what it msut have been like to sit for 20+ hours in a cramped DC7 with 30" pitch?

Brrr!


User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7737 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2538 times:

And no PTVs to boot. The horrors, the horrors....


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7929 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2474 times:

Indianguy,

Actually, from what I've read the DC-7's and the longer-range Constellations that flew the transatlantic route from the middle 1950's on had generous seating pitches by 2003 standards. The average seating pitch on those planes was more like 36", and definitely more in the premium class seating areas.


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2424 times:

Strange many have forgotten the Stratocruiser (Boeing 377). BOAC operated these IDL-LHR for many years, nearly always non-stop eastbound.

Many today would be amazed at the comfort these aircraft offered, even for economy passengers.

Timz,
The DC-6B to which you refer departed from SMO, where they were all built.


User currently offlineTreg From Estonia, joined Oct 2001, 535 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2378 times:

Many today would be amazed at the comfort these aircraft offered, even for economy passengers.

But what about the ticket price in those old days? Was economy class ticket as much affordable as it is today (or even 5 years ago)?


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2324 times:

Of course not Treg, but it helped keep the riff-raff out... Big grin

User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6707 posts, RR: 7
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2312 times:

411A: Yeah, I read somewhere that the TAI DC-6B departed from SMO, but I figured at 107,000 lb they wouldn't be quite legal there.

In 1957 PA had at least 8-10 flights a day eastward across the Atlantic.


User currently offline411A From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 1826 posts, RR: 8
Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Timz,
The takeoff weight for this flight would have been closer to 98,000 pounds, ferry flight with 5512 gallons/fuel.

The DC-6B was the most economical four engine piston airliner to operate, on a seat/mile cost basis. The reason of course was the very reliable P&W R2800CB16/17 engines.

CB17 wet power takeoff (107,000 pounds) was only available with 115/145 fuel, as I recall. Not available now.


User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2248 times:

Economy class only started around the mid to late 1950s... until then, all flights were single class, and expensive... I remember, as a kid, flying from USA to Europe, my favorite was the Stratocruiser, I was making myself a pest in the lounge downstairs or playing in the stairs... My dad was posted at the US Embassy in Paris for many years, so I was a "junior" frequent flyer with PanAm and TWA... My first jet flight was on the PanAm 707 from Paris to New York around Christmas 1958... we stopped in Shannon as I remember well, then again in Bangor, Maine, apparently running short on fuel.
xxx
When jet age came, in the late 1950s and early 1960s, there were 2 different rates available for tickets as well, for trips on "prop airplanes", or on "jets"...
Jet flights were much more expensive...
xxx
My last flight as a passenger on a propeller airplane, was JFK to LUX (with a stop in KEF, with a CL44J from Iceland's Loftleidir) - in these days (1967) they had the cheapest Atlantic fare, I think it used to be $189 one way...
xxx
They did pack some 219 passengers in these CL44J (a stretched version of the CL44D4)... that airline was popular for students backpacking trips to Europe...
(s) Skipper


User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6707 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2175 times:

I think I read the R2800-CB16/17 was 2400 hp on 100/130, 2500 hp on 108/135.

I miscounted the PA flights. Summer 1957 departures:

Daily (or maybe 11/week) B377 IDL-LHR
daily DC-7C IDL-LHR
daily DC-6B IDL-SNN-ORY
daily DC-7C IDL-PIK-FRA
daily DC-7C IDL-ORY
daily B377 IDL-ORY
4/week DC-7C IDL-LIS
3/week DC-6B IDL-BOS-SMA-LIS
1/week DC-6B IDL-YQX-KEF-OSL

and also

daily DC-6B PHL-BOS-SNN-LHR
daily DC-7C ORD-Detroit-SNN-LHR
2/week DC-6B ORD-Detroit-BOS-ORY

Many of these flights continued farther east.


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