Going64 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 329 posts, RR: 0 Posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4204 times:
A little bit related to the foreseen introduction of the A380 and it's number of pax I was wondering how may pax are squeezed into a 747.
I know that the Dutch charter company Martinair manages to have 516 pax in a 747 and that does not include crew.
Are there airliners who can beat this number?
Airsicknessbag From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 4723 posts, RR: 38 Reply 2, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4076 times:
The 747-400 Domestic can be configured with up to 624 seats. However because JL and NH have a First Class in these planes, the number of seats is reduced to a mere 569.
The bigger version of the A380 (the -900 I believe it´s called) will have a capacity of 990 in a similar high-density all-economy layout.
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 3, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4037 times:
On the 747-100 and 200, the maximum occupancy for the upper deck (legal) is 29 passenger seats - with two upper deck doors - left and right hand side...
If only one door (RH side standard) the maximum occupancy is 19 passengers on the upper deck...
xxx
The stretched upper deck (as 300s and 400s) is certificated for 79 (that is at least the documentation I have - who knows, can be more - maybe...)
xxx
Main deck of the 747, I always heard that the maximum capacity (again this is what I officially teach from Boeing documentation) is 499 passengers, although I agree with you, the Japanese, with their 747SRs and 744-400-Ds in sardine class, probably found a way to locate passengers in the overhead bins...
xxx
After takeoff, an announcement is made "please recline altogether now... domo aligato"... you should see the subways in Tokyo at rush hours, the way they load their trains, maybe one day, JAL and ANA will do same...
xxx
So, from what I read from Boeing (CSM Cabin Servive Manual) a standard 747 could carry 499+19 or 499+29 depending on the upper deck doors option... for a stretched upper deck like 300 or 400 it would be 499+79, in advanced maths = 578 sardines... with a minimum crew of 12 cabin attendants (required) and 3 flight crews, that makes some 593 idiots on board... hoping the toilets can contain the body liquids and other wastes... hmmm...
xxx
I once was on contract with Air Atlanta with a 747-100 flying Tutsi refugees from Kigali to Kinshasa (1992), we put some 750 people in the seats and the aisles... They did not complain about the lack of in-flight movies...
xxx
Happy contrails...
(s) Skipper
Tjwgrr From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2296 posts, RR: 3 Reply 4, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3989 times:
I remember reading about a 747 (Pan Am?) refugee evacuation flight out of Vietnam or Cambodia. I recall the number of passengers to have been well in excess of 1000 if I remember correctly. I'm quite sure that flight holds the record number of passengers for a civilian aircraft.
Someone in this forum will have the actual number and details I'm sure.....
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
Going64 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 329 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3988 times:
Thanx for this splendid posting skipper. I forgot the different upper decks which make quite a difference.
AFAIK Martinair flies the 200 series so basically they reach almost the max. How irritating it must be to arrive with +500 fellow passengers at a small holiday island and wait for your luggage (charter=2 pieces each passenger?) .
BTW did the refugees complain about not being upgraded?
Bobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 7 Reply 6, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3957 times:
I remember reading about a 747 (Pan Am?) refugee evacuation flight out of Vietnam or Cambodia. I recall the number of passengers to have been well in excess of 1000 if I remember correctly. I'm quite sure that flight holds the record number of passengers for a civilian aircraft.
Going64 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 329 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3740 times:
unbelievable!!!!! 1200 pax in a 747; guess some of them had to sit on the wing.
Thx Bob!
Anybody else who has more interesting pax ' records' in/on/under a 747?
Artsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4741 posts, RR: 43 Reply 9, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3735 times:
The 1200 figure is absolutely amazing, although as the article says, they were not properly seated, and had lined the floors, galleys etc. It would have interesting doing an evac on that, trying to get 1200 passengers off the plane in under 90 seconds. My suggestion is to not decompress the plane or disarm the doors, then all at once, open all the doors and the pax would be sucked out at the rate of 13.3 people per second that would be required.
Avi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 922 posts, RR: 6 Reply 11, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3637 times:
There were “only” 1087 pax on that El-Al flight (from El-Al web site) and actually it was an Israeli Air Force flight because the company and its pilots had to be protected from sanctions for breaking every basic safety rule.
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (9 years 11 months 3 weeks ago) and read 3569 times:
The fact is that a typical passenger 747-200 or -300 can carry a payload of some 65,000 kg (145,000 lbs)... a typical refugee is probably not fat and weighs less that 65 kg... you can put 1,000 of them and still be within limits. For weight and balance purpose, kids up to age 12, account for one-half that weight. I always assume that 10% of passengers are probably kids on such flights.
xxx
Take a 747F cargo, the payload capability is increased to over 100,000 kg (220,000 lbs) - if the refugees dont mind sitting on the floor of the cabin, you could safely carry the weight of some 1,500+ people. Sorry, they will not get a before takeoff Martini, and further, the line for the single toilet will be long.
xxx
An old saying for 747 passenger planes "if they fit in the cabin - the plane will fly"... But dont say that about real cargo loads...
xxx
(s) Skipper
Leezyjet From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 4041 posts, RR: 55 Reply 14, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3526 times:
Skipper,
"I once was on contract with Air Atlanta with a 747-100 flying Tutsi refugees from Kigali to Kinshasa (1992), we put some 750 people in the seats and the aisles..."
How did you do the (manual I'm guessing) loadsheet for that many pax ???. How did you trim the bay splits ???.
Our 744 that took out the supplies to Basra a few weeks ago was a nightmare for the loadsheet purposes as they filled the cabin up with freight too, so not easy to trim on the standard manual l/s !!.
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 15, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3435 times:
Dear Leezyjet -
xxx
We landed, took us 30 minutes to load the passengers, and 15 minutes later, we were in the air again... Trim sheet...? We made one that looks almost OK, ...after takeoff...
xxx
Read my lips: passenger 747 airplanes, if it fits in the cabin, it will fly...
xxx
In practice, it goes that way - refugee passengers are 60 kg each...
Trim sheet, trim setting...? Hmmm - to tell you the truth...
Basic operating weight +
Estimated passenger weight (100 kg for regular passenger and his bags) +
Fuel weight =
Takeoff weight...
xxx
Takeoff weight 260,000 kg x 2 = 5.2 units trim nose up...
Takeoff weight 300,000 kg x 2 = 6.0 units trim nose up...
Takeoff weight 340,000 kg x 2 = 6.8 units trim nose up...
Takeoff weight 377,000 kg x 2 = 7.6 units trim nose up...
It takes a crew (stupid me included) 60 seconds to figure a trim setting,
It will take the load controller 30 minutes with his computer to figure same...
xxx
Happy contrails...
(s) Skipper
Aviasian From Singapore, joined Jan 2001, 1452 posts, RR: 16 Reply 16, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3368 times:
I recall that when Vietnamese refugees were being flown out of Singapore's Paya Lebar Airport in the early-1980s, World Airways' B747s were fitted out with 550 seats . . . and I thought was already a tight fit.
Now it is incredible that commercial flights are operating with similar or higher number of seats!
Avi From Israel, joined Sep 2001, 922 posts, RR: 6 Reply 19, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3244 times:
SK: In my opinion the most incredible number is not only the 1000+ PAX. But did you notice the turn-arround time of less than 40 minutes??
There was no “turn- around” in the way you mean it. There were no pax or cargo to download and the planes landed already with the fuel they needed to the flight back to Israel.
It was a very organized operation (it took mounths to plan it). The pax (about 15,000) were divided into groups and the organizers knew exactly which group takes which flight (so they had a pax weight estimate in advance). The second the planes stopped, they took the right groups and in no time the planes were ready for take-off.
As already said, none of the pax had “a weight problem”. Many of them were children and they didn’t have luggage. They came as they were so there were no weight problems on the way back (but there were on the way in, because of the fuel, so the B747s didn’t do more than one cycle).
TodaReisinger From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 2753 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (9 years 11 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3210 times:
did it ever make the Guinness Records Book?
Yes.
And there were one or 2 more passengers when the Jumbo landed in TLV.....
* * * * * * * *
To counter Israir's plans to fly nonstop between TLV and New York, LY has decided to install 2 of the old 747s with an all-economy seating....for 518 passengers.
Given the fact that Israir has postponed the NYC flights launch until the summer of 2004, I don't know if LY will launch this charter service this year.
I bitterly miss the livery that should never have been changed (repetition...)
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