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Do (or Did) Any Airlines Fly 3-crew 767s?  
User currently offlineIslandHopper From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 327 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4486 times:

A friend of mine is a non-union charter pilot, and we were talking about pilot unions and some of the ridiculous demands they make. He said that although the 767 was designed to be flown by two crew, one airline (or more?) was forced to order three-crew 767s from Boeing because their pilot unions insisted that the airlines hire an extra (and completely useless) flight engineer.

I did some research on Boeing's website and found this:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767family/pf/pf_fltdeck.html

"Eleven of the 12 airlines that had ordered the three-crew 767s changed their orders to the two-crew design."

Who was this one holdout airline, and are they still flying their 767s with three crew? Any 757s similarly configured (since they have a common cockpit)?

14 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12119 posts, RR: 49
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4468 times:
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I believe it was Ansett. And we all know where they are flying these days.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineNdebele From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 2901 posts, RR: 22
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4471 times:

I think it was Ansett, but I'm not sure.

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16307 posts, RR: 56
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4451 times:

It was definitely Ansett.

A classic example of union rules reducing efficiency and profit.



Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineSabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4445 times:

Yes, Ansett had some B767s configured with a flight engineer panel, but I believe the planes have since been modified and thus are now suitable for 2 men operations.... strange story!

User currently offlineDeltaRules From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3788 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4431 times:

It was Ansett. They had five 3-crew 767s, and there was a story about it in Airliners magazine a few years ago. The F/E's panel looked pretty basic; a couple gauges, a few buttons & a video screen.

DeltaRules



Let's Kick the Tires & Light the Fires!!
User currently offlineIslandHopper From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 327 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4359 times:

>The F/E's panel looked pretty basic; a couple gauges, a few buttons & a video screen.

Why, so he could watch the IFE?  Nuts

The link I gave above talks about the controversy surrounding the two-crew setup. Were all passenger jets before the 757/767 three crew? Even the DC9, BAC-111, 737 and Caravelle? I thought at least the DC9 and 737 were two crew.


User currently offlineJETSTAR From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1652 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4276 times:
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The 737 and DC-9 were certified for two pilot operation. The airline pilots union, ALPA objected to the two pilot operation of these twin engine jets and singled out the 737, they ruled that any US airline operating the 737 had to be flown by 3 pilots.

Very few US airlines ordered the 737 because the DC-9 could be flown by 2 pilots, but the 737 had to be flown by 3 pilots and because of this union rule the DC-9 outsold the 737.

United and Western for many years had flight engineers on their 737's. These planes had no flight engineer station and the FE sat on the observers seat and reached the same switches the pilots could reach. After the FAA ruled that the 757/767 could be operated safely by 2 pilots, the union dropped the requirement for 3 pilots on the 737


User currently offlineCovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1452 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4227 times:

Anybody have any pictures of these odd 3-man cockpit arrangements?


thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6873 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4152 times:

The 3-man/2-man dispute dates from the 1950s at least. Was it Northwest that wanted B377s without F/Es? As I recall, 80,000 lb MTOW was eventually set as the US two-crew maximum and the DC-9 was originally planned to stay within that limit-- which I guess must have been relaxed around that time.

User currently offlineB747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 4026 times:

On long flights, over 8 hours flight time, depending on the country's aviation rules, 2 pilots airplanes require a 3rd pilot (augmented crew) anyway...
And 4 pilots (double crew) for flights over 12 hours...
(s) Skipper


User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3993 times:

That's correct, it was Ansett Australia that used to fly 3 crew 767's. I was actually on board one of their 767-200's and visited the flightdeck in flight(this was back in '97) and yep there was a flight engineer sitting there at his station.

User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2395 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

On it's first flight the 767 was fitted with a flight engineer's panel as the FAA were refusing to allow a two pilot flightdeck. After much arguing the FAA backed down and Boeing modified the flightdeck to a two crew setup.
As has been mentioned Ansett's B767-277s were initially operated with three crew, before being modified in line with their B767-204s.


User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2395 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3936 times:

Here's what it looked like:

Compare the engineer's panel to the normal panel at http://webpages.charter.net/flyian/757-767/fe.htm.


User currently offlineIslandHopper From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 327 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3839 times:

Thanks for the pictures AJ. So Ansett was still flying them 3-crew in the late '90s? No wonder they went bankrupt.

>On long flights, over 8 hours flight time, depending on the country's aviation rules, 2 pilots airplanes require a 3rd pilot (augmented crew) anyway...
And 4 pilots (double crew) for flights over 12 hours...

What about the 3 pilot 767? I bet Ansett's unions would require an extra replacement flight engineer too. After all, they need relief from all the work they were doing.  Smile


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