764 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 654 posts, RR: 0 Posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3965 times:
I know that this statement will draw a lot of criticism, but I really believe that at the current point the TSA is doing more to help terrorists in general to achieve their objectives than they do to prevent single attacks. Keep in mind that what terrorists want is to force Americans and others alike to live in fear, give up their freedom and never feel safe anywhere. And the TSA certainly does a good job in taking people's freedom and also confidence.
There was an article in the New York Times today under
which tells me that I am not the only one who is worried about this issue. I won't even talk about CAPPS II, the screening system that would allow the TSA to access personal information such as credit reports and even medical records of future passengers in violation of privacy rights and to also deny boarding to anyone at any time without ever telling you the reason (could be something as little as a misspelled name or a mistyped birth date in any of your records). But even security procedures at airports alone have significantly reduced passenger rights. It is unacceptable that at so many airports passengers are forced to take off their shoes and walk through metal detectors on socks or barefooted, nicely spreading germs all over the place and catching who knows how many others. Also at most locations seating is not provided for people needing to sit down to take off their shoes.
Baggage screening is another point. Under property rights nobody can open your bags unless there is an imminent danger or you are present to supervise the inspection after you have agreed to it. Yet the TSA simply violates these rights. Passengers aren't even allowed to lock their bags any more or the locks will be destroyed by the TSA. Also in some locations inspections are performed and passengers are not allowed to be present.
Here's another violation of the United States Constitution: The TSA, together with the DHS is planning to not only have US citizenship as a requirement for screeners, but also for everybody employed within the secure area. That includes stores like WHSmith or MCDonald's.
Also, why don't they allow non-passengers beyond security controls any more? Is somebody without a boarding pass more likely to get a gun beyond security than somebody with a boarding pass? Plus, if I were planning to hijack a plane, wouldn't I have a boarding pass anyway??? It couldn't be to reduce waiting at the checkpoints, because often enough there is no line there at all. If there are long lines then a passengers-only rule makes sense and has been in place in several airports before 2001. But if there is no waiting - what's the point?
These are just a few of the things that have very significantly reduced American's freedom at airports. There are several more. I just wish that somebody would stop those people, because while I am not at all afraid of terror attacks, I am "afraid" of the TSA every time I fly. "What new nonsense may they have come up with now?" is what I always think before I fly. And their measures don't make any sense if I tell you what I recently came across in Minneapolis: Outside a store in the green concourse there was a cart with several magazines and on top there was a bunch of plastic-wrapped Readers Digests. On top of those somebody had left a large paper cutter, which was obviously needed to unpack the magazines. But there was nobody guarding the cart and the knife was there for anybody to help themselves. What a nice security this is. And there are sufficient other loopholes, which I don't want to expose here as I do not want to give any terrorists any ideas.
My plea to the TSA and everybody else in the aviation security business is: PLEASE make flying fun again. Give freedom back to people. That would help the airline economy too.
FlyCMH From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 2332 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3914 times:
The TSA makes sure my mom and dad come home.
Your parent's flight crew, the ground agents keeping a watchful eye on the ramp, and air traffic control make sure they come home. The Thousands Standing Around make sure your tweasers are kept in your checked baggage or are confiscated.
Beltwaybandit From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 495 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3905 times:
The goal of selective screening (and CAPPS II) is to try to allocate risk so that MOST OF US can move through quickly and without undue burden. Our greatest advantage over terrorist types is that we have access to better technology. We should use it whenever possible to find them, and to let the rest of us live unmolested.
TSA will inevitably screw some things up. That's OK.
BR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3906 times:
I second what FlyCMH says down to the last word. The Pilots, Maintenance Personnel, Ground Crew, Marshallers, and the ATC make sure your parents arrive safely. Not those morons dressed in a white shirt with a yellow badge embroidered on it.
SWALUVFA From United States of America, joined May 2002, 277 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3844 times:
I absolutely agree with you all. I mean safety and security is one thing and I respect that, but the TSA have this "new found" power that they take to an ALL new level. Its ridiculous. Its even hard for us crew members to get through security now-a-days. I agree that there needs to be strict security these days, but the TSA makes NO SENSE sometimes.
I mean I will be selected for that random screening sometimes where I automatically get wanded down, so there is no need for me to take things out of my pockets, take my belt off, and take my shoes off to go through security because I am getting the screening NO MATTER WHAT. But the dumb TSA still insists on me taking my change out, and taking my belt and shoes off. THEN I will go through the metal detector and NOT set it off, and get sent over to the "wand down" section. No sense. I just go with the flow and let them have their little power trips.
DeltAirlines From United States of America, joined May 1999, 9016 posts, RR: 11
Reply 10, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3789 times:
Mike Boyd (often quoted in the Wall Street Journal, etc.) always has something interesting to say on the TSA (http://www.aviationplanning.com). I think that the TSA is pretty lame. If the government was more serious about aviation safety, they would have done more than make the private screeners part of the government and create a new acronym (they are, after all, the ones that were doing the screenings prior to 9/11). They are a major joke, and they really need to reform. As much as I love the Bush Administration, this is the one part that really irks me.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3733 times:
And more kiddos here complaining because there's at last someone who checks to see if they have business in a secure area...
If Americans hadn't been so completely naive about security and let any person with a bomb and gun walk onto an aircraft you wouldn't need the TSA.
If they're overreacting sometimes it's precisely because of the abuse people throw at them for confiscating pocket knives.
Grow up and let these people do their jobs, don't try to make it impossible for them because the CAN and WILL get back to you and mess you around (or someone else) next time!
It's that easy, if you help them by not being a complete asshole when you're asked to have your bag X-rayed and not try to get into the secure area without a ticket they'll soon settle down into the role that security people have played in the rest of the civilised world for decades which is to keep that area secure.
And as for ramp personel looking after ramp security, you got to be laughing.
Those people are way too busy to go around checking whether every person walking around there has the required clearance, and if they had the time they'd not show it...
HlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3699 times:
For any of you who have read my TSA rants in the past, this will be like a broken record to you. I have made a parody of myself when I say this...
Why do they 80 year old non Muslim ladies take off their shoes?
Why don't Muslim men have to be searched under their turbans, or the women under their veils?
I have seen it too much...
Good points of TSA
1. You have to be a US Citizen to work for them
2. They actually are getting paid good money I think $14/hr to start which means if they had a good work ethic they would work for that money... oh wait... they dont
1. Too many workers- that gives the impression that there are thousands standing around. They get bored, so they gotta make it look like they are doing something so they make grandma take her shoes off
2. Political correctness- "Oh no, we can't single out Middle Eastern Men, we would be discriminating!!!" even though all recent terrorist acts in the air have been of that demographic. Mohammad Abdullah sets of the metal detector, they just wand him quick and let him walk because if you do anymore he says "Allah curse you". 85 year old Aunt Bea has to take off her shoes because her prostetic hip set off the metal detector. She can barely walk let alone hijack a plane. Little Johnny coming back from Disney World with his family has to take off his Mickey Mouse Ears so they can check for hidden weapons while they don't search under Sultanna Ali's veil. A woman terrorist? Well we have seen women terrorists in Israel, you can hide a lot under that veil, but you know the Arabs would go crying to ACLU if they had to be searched under that veil. Yes I know their religion prohibits them from being seen by men under the veil- but that is what seperate rooms and female TSA workers are for. Besides- this country is not based on Islamic Law and this is a national security threat so I think that overides a minority religion right now.
Planenutz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3686 times:
Another thing that really bugs me is how many within the TSA tout the need to develop a system similar to the Isreali one when it comes to security.
What about other models?
Lima Jorge Chavez: Not one hijacking during the Shining Path insurrection of the 80's and 90's, though there were attempts. Without the massive budget and security apparautus that the TSA and US Govt. have, they were able to operate a secure airport using common sense security procedures.
The same can be said for Bogata's El Dorado Airport, Belfast CIty and International Airports, and airports in the Middle East wuch as Amman, Tunis, and Casablanca. All of these airports were, or could have been, in the line of fire due to regional or local conflicts, but managed to stay safe.
I think that sometime in the near future the TSA will come under serious scrutiny. It already has to some extent and the result has been 6,000 screeners losing their jobs because the money simply wouldnt supprt that kind of payroll (not to mention the several hundred that were let go because it was found out that they were either non US citizens, or had criminal records).
Petazulu From United States of America, joined Jan 2003, 701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3674 times:
Some fo you guys sound like kids who are pissed off they can't go watch airplanes from near the gates anymore.
Others of you sound like ailine employees who are sick of getting hassled are envious of the cushy jobs these new airport employees seem to have. It seems that tougher security has gotten on your nerves, but get used to it. It's part of your lives now.
If you are a regular flier, then you know how not to get hassled by security. Take your laptop out, take off you shoes, empty you pockets. I do it in my sleep before I even get to the x-ray machine. No big deal. It takes about 30 seconds (MAX) longer than it may have taken before 9/11 and I am more confident that a terrorist might be caught. Of course there are still loopholes, but thata a different conversation.
If you are a clueless dumbass or are someone trying to test the limits, then you should just learn you lesson and follow instructions for the first few times.
I remember the days of 2-day old 'security' agents who spoke no english and would be challenged to even work at a McDonalds- now that was some scary stuff and we paid for it.
N951U From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3652 times:
I've only really had one problem with at TSA checkpoint, and that was at Columbus. They spent 20 minutes swabbing everything in my carry-on, including running it up and down pages inside of a book, my newspaper, every pen and pencil, etc. Then they made me turn on my laptop and open at least one program in it, as well as the same on my Palm Pilot. I still made it to my gate just as boarding began, but I did not quite understand the need for this full treatment, especially when I didn't set off the magnometer. I was just a victim of them not having anybody to search when I came along.
Srbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3618 times:
Security wait times have gotten worse since the new security directives (post 9/11, prior to TSA and once TSA started screenings). It is not uncommon at ATL to waiting 90 minutes in the security line on a Monday morning. It used to be 15-20 minutes tops on busy travel days. And one thing that gets me is that if the TSA was so gung-ho on airport security, why don't they man the access gates that provide access to roadways within the airports? The same security companies that provided the old screenings in the terminals are still manning guard shacks on the NLVRs that run through the airports. I go through this everyday I work, they don't even check my load, they just look at my vehicle pass, swipe my SIDA badge, and let me on my merry way. This sort of lax security could be how the next terror attack is launched, from within the airport itself. The only vehicles that I see get searched at the main access gates are vehicles that are going to be escorted in. Somebody with hostile intentions could manage to get a job that allows them access to roadways and ramp areas on airport properties in a truck that could be used as a vehicle bomb, or as a transport of terrorists (since these rent-a-cops aren't checking the loads inside the trucks of normal delivery vehicles) on the tarmac at an airport. Instead of just harassing passengers, the TSA needs to also concentrate on people who have daily access to the SIDA in vehicles that could be potentially used in a terror attack on an airport.
Dazed767 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 5519 posts, RR: 48
Reply 19, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3608 times:
I had a run-in with a TSA agent back in January in FLL. Told me to leave my wallet in my pocket (gee wonder if it's gonna go off), sure enough it did. He serached my wallet....say my Platnium Visa and this is where it got fun...
Them: "How'd you get a Platnium Card, I can't even get one!"
Me: "Not sure, they sent it to me"
Them: "What are you rich or something, how old are you?"
Me: "Far from it...I'm 21"
Them: Calls his buddy over "Hey XXX, this kids got a platnium card, I can't even get one" "Are you a student?"
Me: Used to be.
Them: "making a remark that CC companies try to get kids etc etc". And they let me on my way.
IT WAS VERY UNPROFESSIONAL. If I was not sleep deprived, I would have taken both their names and reported them. But I was so tired, I just wanted to get out of there.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 79
Reply 20, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3567 times:
One place that I continue to enjoy high-quality security service even post-9/11 is DCA.
It was easily the most pleasant airport to use before 9/11 and the TSA hasn't changed that. They are extremely polite and efficient, and have everything setup to keep the line moving.
No small part in that, of course, is due to the average traveler there heading to their preferred Shuttle. The people in line at DCA are already almost completely naked, clothes and shoes in hand, laptop out, everything done by the time they get to the front of the line.
I also don't mind the Marines walking around with large automatic weapons out on the tarmac.
United_Fan From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 7659 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3555 times:
My run in with them was last October in SEA . My bag was selected for scanning and I had to wait next to the Million Dollar scanner when some guy came out and yelled 'Scott!!,anyone named Scott here!!?? ' I said that's me. 'Please follow me!' So I did. 'Please open your bag , and stand on the stripe on the floor.' He donned the rubber prostate-exam gloves and searched away..... he produced my radio scanner.'What's this?' Looking at it like he'd never seen one before' That's a scanner' 'Oh' He did some more digging and produced my can of glass cleaner I always bring to clean my glasses. 'This is not allowed! I asked why not,aerosol deodorant is allowed? It's not allowed,and it will be confiscated.. Fill out this form. It was a freakin Hazardous Material form. I think the a$$hole took it home for his own use.
When I flew in February in ROC I had to stand while my bag was searched,but when I left MIA I didn't .
It's better than retirees and non-English speakers doing it...........
Champagne For My Real Friends, Real Pain For My Sham Friends
N737MC From Canada, joined Oct 2000, 680 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3547 times:
All i have to say is TSA= "Thousands Standing Around" and a big "Joke" literally. I know that the folks that work at the airport besides me can agree on this one. I deal with those damn people every day, a freaking joke is all I can say.
Planenutz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3536 times:
True. Many TSA personnel seem not to have too much to do. At MIA tey spend most of the time sitting in chairs and talking on their cell phones. At LAX Bradley Terminal, they stand around in groups, in front of the check in counters, around security equipment, at airlines that dont even have flights operating that day.
Continental From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5557 posts, RR: 14
Reply 24, posted (12 years 7 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3517 times:
Royal, that last sentance summed it all up. They are crap! We can't tell how well they perform!! Why?? Well, Globe did superb jobs on the tests like fake weapons to test employees at Globe. They did it to TSA, and they got like a 30-40% on it! After that, they decided to do away with them for no apparent reason! It was a joke to fire all those veterans who were there for 20 years, and hire a bunch of hoo-hahs who just finished their 2nd year with Wal-Mart.
: For anyone who's flown in Europe, the TSA is a joke. It's there to placate the likes of Flyingbronco05 et al. Make like you're doing something to prev
: Jwenting said: And as for ramp personel looking after ramp security, you got to be laughing. Those people are way too busy to go around checking wheth
: The ones at DTW were no better. There was one girl who would eat in front of the passengers at the International transfers checkpoint downstairs in th
: Mimi: "I'll take 'Useless Governmental Agencies' for $500, Alex." Alex: 'This Governmental agency was formed post 9/11 to aid in the increased safety
: I'm all in favor of any institution that makes cry babies cry. It seems the TSA is good at that and this forum is proof. More power to them. If I ran
: Another reason the TSA is worthless: They are unarmed. Now, given their appearant incompetance, this could be a good thing. But what if some guy DOES
: "Another reason the TSA is worthless: They are unarmed." That's about the dumbest statement I've ever seen on this forum. The TSA exercises their "tal
: Uhh.. what the hell are you talking about?
: The TSA Armed?? Do we really want that? Please. I'd rather have them screening luggage than shooting people. At ROC, we have a sheriff at the check po
: Giving a TSA agent a gun? Oh boy, that is a scary thought. ON several different levels.
: TSA is overly focused on passenger screening. That's because it's the portion of airport security that is observed by the public. But as another poste
: **Now, given their appearant incompetance, this could be a good thing. But what if some guy DOES have a knife, a pistol, or a machine gun? What are th
: But as another poster implied, the next terrorist attack will take advantage of other airport vulnerabilities, such as catering/delivery trucks, badge
: If you spend any time at the general aviation side of an airport, you'll realize that the TSA is simply smoke-and-mirrors for the travelling public. P
: Once again, I hear nobody ever trying to attack some of the problems that make people want to hijack airplanes in the first place. Security issues in
: At YIP you can practically walk right out on the Tarmac where the Kalitta 747s park without anyone questioning you.
: The person who originated this thread and argued with the TSA because he was carrying a DVD player and not a laptop and therefore did not have to send
: Are there any educational requirements for TSA? Because at DTW it looks like some of these guys were dragged out of the gutter of Cass Corridor in Det
: JETSTAR, the issue here was not whether or not to have the item x-rayed. The issue was instead whether the item had to be separately xrayed in a separ
: The TSA created ALOT of jobs for people that didn't have one because of this great economy....let the TSA keep doing there jobs...
: Hammer: So you think eh? Didn't you know they hired too many at MSP, and they had to fire lots!? They got people's hopes up, then kicked em' in the as
: Acidradio, I'm afraid that your "World Peace" dream just isn't gonna fly. Like it or not, no matter how perfect the world is made, there will always b
: They cannot/will not prevent a recurrence of what happened! That's what this thread has turned to - a criticism of the big picture. For the amount of
: My thoughts exactly. They can't make flying more secure anyway, so why should they have any right to impose rules and policies that negatively affect
: **The TSA created ALOT of jobs for people that didn't have one because of this great economy....let the TSA keep doing there jobs...** Not necessarily