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Qatar Airways To Announce Another Order 2004  
User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Posted (11 years 2 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

From The Peninsula newspaper

"Speaking to reporters in Paris, Foreign Minister H E Hamad bin Jassem bin Jabor Al Thani referred to the deal with Airbus and said so far no agreement has been signed with the US-based Boeing.

He added, however, that a proposal was under consideration. “We hope in the near future, maybe next year, to begin negotiations to add Boeing aircraft to the Qatar Airways fleet. The key factor in this respect is the competition between Airbus and Boeing, and whichever offers better prices and terms, would gain the approval of the specialists in this regard,” the Foreign Minister said."

The Foreign Minister is also the chairman of Qatar Airways as he is one of the largest shareholders in the airline. He is reffering to an order that is expected to include the A340-500 or B777-200LR which Boeing have confirmed that QR is still interested in.

20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 4482 times:

what an interesting little airline this is... for whatever reason, QR has always seemed more interested in the 772LR than A345; even though they already have A340NG on order. That, and they could very well end up as the launch customer for the 772LR if they wanted.

User currently offlineL1011Fan From United States of America, joined May 2003, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 4375 times:

After the way Boeing was played by QR during this last order, I'd like to see Boeing publicly pass on QR's next order. It will then be fun to see how "good" the pricing is when only Airbus is the vendor to QR.

User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4365 times:

L1011Fan,

Boeing was not played by QR. QR has always had the B777 as part of its expansion plans and in fact QR was close to signing an order with Boeing when Airbus came with a last minute offer which they couldn't refuse.


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4265 times:

Be interesting to know the details of this "unrefusable" deal.

QatarAirways... think you can dig up the dirt for us? Big grin Big grin


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Playing the vendors is how industry on this planet works.

AA solicited a bid for A340-500s, and even publically announced their interest in them, just to put pressure on Boeing regarding the Trent 800 on the 777X.

N


User currently offlineL1011Fan From United States of America, joined May 2003, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4171 times:

It's one thing to have the vendors go against one another but it's another thing entirely to have no intention of buying from vendor X and using them to get a better price on vendor y. I realize that's how the world is and all I'm saying is it would be interesting to see if Boeing called QR's bluff next time and we could all see just how much Airbus is willing to negotiate if they know that Boeing is not bidding...

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 4160 times:

No. Its not another thing entirely.

American had no intention of buying A340-500s... but they did it.

The sales staff at Boeing are professionals. They know better than to not bid on as lucrative an account as Qatar.

Even moreso, Boeing will certainly bid if for no other reason than to narrow Airbus' margins on an eventual win.

N


User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 4110 times:

L1011Fan,

QR wasn't bluffing when they said they wanted the B777-200LR, in fact if you ask anyone who has been following the order since last year they would say that this was the aircraft that they were interested in in the first place. At the end of the day Boeing was outdone by Airbus when they submitted a last minute deal which QR thought would be better for them.


User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3010 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Oh come on QatarAirways.

As an all-Airbus operator it doesn't make much sense to not buy the A340NG. Airbus is always going to make a play to keep them as a customer. Although the 777 may make business sense in a vacuum, it's never going to make sense for them with all the other Airbuses they have.

Their interest with Boeing just amounts to flirting in order to get Airbus to lower their prices. They said it themselves in the press release.

If I were Boeing, I would be reluctant to put much effort into an account that I have a limited chance of winning. I would definitely submit a bid, but I wouldn't bend over backwards courting them.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8002 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 4008 times:

My guess is that QR wants a Higher Gross Weight (HGW) version of the A340-500 so they can fly DOH-JFK non-stop year-round. This is probably the same reason why EK will buy the A340-600HGW, primarily so they could fly DXB-JFK year-round.

User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

Brons2,

Again the commonality thing isn't as important as people say it is look at the amount of A330/B777 combinations in the world. I have followed this order closeley ever since early 2002 and believe me if you ask anyone involved with the purchase you will know that the B777 was favoured by some people in the company (incl. CEO) and the A340NG by others and that initially Boeing gave the best offer. Even managment-level pilots were informed that the B777 was joining the fleet. Airbus later gave QR an offer they couldn't refuse.

This from ATWonline confirms what I said:

"Qatar sources visiting the show told ATWOnline that Boeing had been promised an order but withdrew from the bidding when it met the airline's demands only to be trumped by a late bid revision by Airbus."


User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3010 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3984 times:

You don't get it.

This is going to happen every time. Airbus is not about to set idly by and let Boeing gain traction at Qatar. (no doubt at a loss on the 346HGW, it's only 2 units anyways) Qatar will be more than happy to accept the generous terms.

I don't understand why it is that Qatar is interested in the 777NG anyways, the A340NG pretty much fulfills the same mission, and they are already an A332 operator, so they can use pilots on both. They'd probably get better hot and high performance with the 4 engined A340NG.

So, what's the point for Boeing anyways? Qatar can say they are really interested until they're blue in the face, but the preponderance of evidence points to the contrary. Not to say their bait and switch tactics in this order competition.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineQatarAirways From Qatar, joined Sep 2008, 0 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3972 times:

Brons2,

I was initially replying to what L1011Fan said that QR are not interested in the B777 and only said so to get a better deal from Airbus which is not true.

"I don't understand why it is that Qatar is interested in the 777NG anyways"

The B777-300ER is lighter, faster, burns less fuel, cheaper to maintain, carries more payload, better in resale and available before the A340-600HGW. It is a similar situation with the B777LR/A345 except for the last point.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3961 times:

"The B777-300ER is lighter, faster, burns less fuel, cheaper to maintain, carries more payload, better in resale and available before the A340-600HGW. It is a similar situation with the B777LR/A345 except for the last point."

I don't know how you could make this statement. In fact, you can't.

Nobody knows if its cheaper to maintain, or that it burns less fuel.

Its not faster - the A340-500 and -600 have the same M0.84 cruising speed thanks to their new wing.

How could you say its better in resale when the first production unit hasn't even been built yet much less delivered to its owner?

The A340-500 will be fine to fly nonstop-year-round DOH-JFK, in fact, the A340-600HGW probably will be able to.

N


User currently offlineHamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2743 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3913 times:

Gigneil,

Its a rule of physics. A twin-engined aircraft will always be cheaper to maintain than a quad (unless you don't have to pay for maintanence on two of the four engines  Wink/being sarcastic ). Also, since most airlines are now maintaining thier quads to ETOPS standards, even when they don't have to, this is even more true.

As far as burning less fuel, thats also provable. Just look at the respective aircraft's ranges, then look at their fuel capacity. The 777-300ER has a max range of 8,540 s.m. with a max fuel capacity of 47,890 U.S.g. That's 5.61 gallons for every mile. On the A340-600 (non-HGW), the respective numbers are 8,635 s.m. and 51,480 U.S.g. That's a rate of 5.96 gallons/mile.
That is a very basic calculation. However, taking into account that the 777 has to maintain a larger % of reserves due to ETOPS, and the fact that in flight testing it has proven to be 1% more fuel-efficient than original specs indicated (not taken into account in above), the difference is even greater.

However, you are absolutely right in stating that resale value, as of yet, cannot be determined for either aircraft. Of course, even down the road that will be hard to determine, as Airbus has guaranteed the resale of the A340NG to a couple of customers, so a true market value may never be known.

Regards,

Hamlet69



Honor the warriors, not the war.
User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3895 times:

I guess Qatar will goes for common cockpit , they are already operating an Airbus fleet , if they do select the A340-500 , that does make sense as maintainance cost is much lower then operating an A330/340/777 fleet . But I may be wrong .




Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlineDynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1862 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 3869 times:

Gigneil and Hamlet69:

At this early phase of both aircraft, the future resale value is mostly tied to how much discounts these airplanes are being sold at. As the aircraft mature, then the actual performance and popularity of the aircraft will affect the resale values. If what QatarAirways says is true, then it means Airbus is discounting more heavily on the 346 than Boeing is discounting on the 773ER.


User currently offlineRaggi From Norway, joined Oct 2000, 998 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3836 times:

Is the A340NG`s cruise speed really M.84? I always thought it was M.83, a gain of M.01 from the 200 and 300...


raggi



Stick & Rudder
User currently offlineMD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3828 times:

@Hamlet69

Quite a bold statement:
"Its a rule of physics. A twin-engined aircraft will always be cheaper to maintain than a quad (unless you don't have to pay for maintanence on two of the four engines ). "

How much do you know about maintenance costs, especially regarding engine maintenance? Care to give a bit a more comprehensive reasoning?

Back to topic, I guess it's a fair game for Qatar to use competitive bids to obtain the best available deal, and as someone said each supplier should be at least interested to make the chossen ones margin as small as possible. That's how business works I guess........

Cheers, Thomas


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 3760 times:

Its not faster - the A340-500 and -600 have the same M0.84 cruising speed thanks to their new wing.

From what I hear, they actually had to change the wing to bring the aircraft to its originally promised weight/range/speed... not fortify them. The latter is what this supposed A346HGW is for.


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