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Why Did BA Stop 747s Into San Diego?  
User currently offlineHockey55dude From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 213 posts, RR: 2
Posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6662 times:




I have know idea why BA stopped 747s into San Diego?
now they fly in 777?

26 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4247 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6591 times:

Well, I'm sure it wasn't part of an effort to tick off airliner afficiendos. But you never know!  Smile
I would guess it was a capacity issue. They didn't need the extra seats that a 747 provides and could perhaps use that aircraft on another route. I don't know the economics of the 747 vs the 777, but it stands to reason that a Triple-7 has considerably better fuel consumption and therefore a lower cost per seat mile than the 747. Someone in a London office has been busy crunching those numbers!!!



None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6587 times:

This was done when the flight made a stopover in Phoenix before heading to London..........I think now both flights are separate.




Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offlineRichierich From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 4247 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6565 times:

I believe Marcus is correct... that sounds familiar now he writes that!


None shall pass!!!!
User currently offlineDIA From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3273 posts, RR: 28
Reply 4, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6544 times:

All deals with load factors. Past loads, present loads, and future predicted and/or trend loads. Also, placement of a/c within the system. Sometimes one BA route pax load will drop off a cliff (for whatever reason), so they will pull that large a/c off of that route and stick in a smaller one and vice versa. Sounds like you had the first one happen in your case. Seasonal loads are also in the mix.

I remember just a few years back watching BA fly the DC-10 into San Diego.

Cheers,
DIA



Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
User currently offlineCovert From Ghana, joined Oct 2001, 1450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6532 times:

Really simple Hockey55dude;

The main reason probably being passenger loadfactors are down. A 747-400, I do not have numbers, but do know for a fact that having four engines and a larger operating weight than a 777-200 opposed to two engines will at the very least be more economical in fuel.
What is the point of driving your Silverado 500 miles by yourself when you can take your Honda and save $200 in gas money?



thank goodness for TCAS !
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7773 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6464 times:

The real reason, which has only been mentioned briefly, was that BAs service into San Diego was a tag onto the Phoenix flight. Loads for the LGW-PHX-SAN justified using the 747-400 on that route. When BA decided to serve both cities seperately they switched to the 777 for both cities. For San Diego the primary reason was that a loaded 747-400 could not operate out of SAN and clear the terrain of off the depature end of the runway without payload penalties, the 777 could. Plus the 777 was a better match sizewise for both PHX and SAN. Thirdly, BA had made a decision to move all 747 ops to Heathrow, thus leaving no 747s at Gatwick.


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 6358 times:

I had the pleasure of flying this service (from the UK) last November...load factors on my particular flight were brilliant - a full plane, both ways. The route is actually very scenic (I saw the snow-covered plains of the Dakotas, then the parched Arizona deserts and the Grand Canyon), and the approach into SAN is simply something to be savoured, especially when your plane dwarfs everything else on the ground!

User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6197 times:

DesertJets pretty much nailed it. There were two main reasons BA stopped flying the 747 into SAN. It was a tag to the PHX flight (the capacity difference of a BA 747 to a 777 is about 135 seats) so the extra capacity was needed. When the routes were split (there are now daily non-stops into both PHX and SAN), the capacity was no longer needed also the fact that the routing of the flight used to be LGW-PHX-SAN-PHX-LGW because a 747 cannot take off from SAN with enough fuel and payload to fly non-stop to London, but, as DesertJets said, the 777 can.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 9, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6126 times:

Ironically, the switch from a 747 to 777 actually means, in the end, more capacity for SAN because the 777 flight is nonstop to LHR, and does not require a stop as the 747 did.

A 747-400 can not feasibly operate from SAN to LHR nonstop, so I can assure you that SAN will never see such a flight, unless a new runway is built. If BA wants to expand here, they will add more frequencies. Speaking of which, BA's IATA Draft Schedule for winter shows the resumption of daily service to SAN. I wouldn't hold my breath on this, though, because I remember looking at the draft summer schedule a few months ago, and it also listed SAN-LHR as a daily service. This obviously hasn't happened, as BA still doesn't fly to SAN two days out of the week.

On a related note, I wouldn't be surprised if PHX is upgraded to a 747-400 within the next year or two.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineATA L1011 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1379 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 6070 times:

Did'nt the DC-10-30 that use to fly the rte require the stop as well, I know a heavy 10-30 requires a lot of runway in alot of cases as long as the 744.


Treat others as you expect to be treated!
User currently offlineCarduelis From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2001, 1585 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5951 times:

ATA L:1011

The DC10 flight was taken over from BCAL when they merged with BA. The routing was via LAX in both directions.




Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7773 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 5916 times:

Just a quick question to add regarding the DC-10-30 service. When BA inaguarated the LGW-PHX service it was 6x weekly with the DC10. When the flight went daily and the tag to San Diego was added was it ever operated by the DC-10, or was it exclusively from day one a 747 route?


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16856 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 5845 times:

The 777 into San Diego is actually and increase in capacity, before the nonstop 777 flights from SAN to London went through Phoenix. So alot of that 747-400 capacity went to Phoenix travelers, by splitting the London-PHX-SAN 747-400 flight into two different 777 flights they increased capacity to both Phoenix and San Diego.

Which bodes well to the success of these two flights.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5726 times:

DesertJets: I believe BA arrived at SAN in 1998. I believe the route was actually operated only 4 or 5 days a week, but it most definitely was flown with DC-10 equipment for at least a year before BA switched to the 747-400.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1790 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 5706 times:

I forgot to add, I took this flight back in the summer of 98 and on Decemeber 2000 when it was still SAN-PHX-LGW-PHX-SAN with the 744........the flight from SAN to PHX was about a third full but it filled up at PHX, this happened on both times I took this flight.

On the way back, most people dissembarked at PHX so on the short hop from PHX to SAN you could stretch your legs comfortably........there is nothing like a low fuel and lightly loaded 744 to really experience the power this plane has!

Something that has not been mentioned yet is that there were no Customs/Inmigration facilities at SAN before the direct flights........so on the way back from LGW everyone disembarked at PHX passed Inmigration.....claimed baggage and passed Customs......those who stayed at PHX would leave the customs/inmigration area while those of us who continued to SAN would be lead back to the plane by BA staff.



Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offlineMr.BA From Singapore, joined Sep 2000, 3423 posts, RR: 22
Reply 16, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5575 times:

Probably there isn't a high demand for First Class to San Diego and hence the B777? The B744 if you notice, does not carry many more economy class passengers than the B777. And the B777 do have business class as well as the B744. That few more economy class passengers the B744 can carry even if filled up cannot make up the expenditure for fuel of 10 - 11 tonnes per hour rather than the 7 tonnes per hour B777.


Boeing747 万岁!
User currently offlineTrvlr From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 4430 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 5535 times:

Mr. BA: Though the 744/777 issue has absolutely nothing to do with first class, you are absolutely right that there isn't high demand for F to San Diego. In fact, beginning in October, all flights to SAN (and a few other US cities) will be flown with 2-class 777s.

Aaron G.


User currently offlineJohnboy From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 2578 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

I'm quite sure that SAN has always had a Customs/Immigration facility, as there have been international flights from Mexico for years out of there.

However, the size/quality of the facility may have been a factor.

I'm also positive that I've seen a 747-400 at SAN during BA's first reign several years ago when the flight was a tag from the LAX flights. It was parked at the old East Terminal gate where the old Customs/Immigration facility used to be.

I know this to be true, because I used to live in San Diego and I haven't been back to the airport there in at least 7 years.


User currently offlineLindy field From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 3116 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5389 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

To add yet more info to the thread -

When BA first served San Diego, it was the inherited BCal flight from LGW routed through Los Angeles, operating with a mixture of DC-10 and 742 aircraft. This routing operated in the late 1980s and early 1990s.

When BA resumed LGW-SAN service in the late '90s, it was initially with DC-10 aircraft operating via PHX. The flight was upgraded to the 744 later on.

The flight changed to a 777 when it became a LGW-SAN nonstop. About a year ago the flight changed its point of origin to LHR. It now flies 5 times a week.


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32691 posts, RR: 72
Reply 20, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5341 times:

British Airways will continue to serve San Diego with three class service after October, they don't have two-class 777s and 747s anymore (IIRC). San Diego will be served with business, premium economy, and economy. So will Denver, Montreal, Phoenix, and one Toronto flight (unless things have changed from the original plan). Tampa and Orlando already feature this service, which will likely also be used to Atlanta and Dallas.


a.
User currently offlineDesertJets From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 7773 posts, RR: 16
Reply 21, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5323 times:

Is World Traveller Plus in a seperate cabin, or is it packaged more like UA's Economy Plus product? If it is the latter I would still call that 2-class service.


Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 22, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5278 times:

DesertJets: WT+ is a separate cabin, giving BA four classes on the routes on which it is present.

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineLH423 From Canada, joined Jul 1999, 6501 posts, RR: 54
Reply 23, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5258 times:

I meant to elaborate. World Traveller Plus is not present on every route at the moment, mostly just those with high business yields. Certain cities, especially those served out of LGW, do not feature the WTP product. SAN is one of those routes. Eventually, however, every long-haul route served on a 747 or 777 will have WTP (I believe completion of the program is slated for next year) and SAN is slated for WTP by no later than Spring 2004. With the removal of F from certain routes, this will leave the plane with three classes of service: Club World (J), World Traveller Plus (W), and World Traveller (M).

LH423



« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 32691 posts, RR: 72
Reply 24, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 5217 times:

The near future BA long-haul fleet will look something like this:

747-400s: First, Club World, World Traveler+, World Traveler
777-200s: First, Club World, World Traveler+, World Traveler OR Club World, World Traveler+, World Traveler
767-300s: First, Club World, World Traveler.

To North America, the 4-Class planes are currently sent to Boston, JFK, Newark, Dulles, Miami, Toronto, San Fran, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Seattle, O'Hare, and Houston, which have high-yielding business traffic.




a.
25 LH423 : Just to add to that, Vancouver and Montréal also have four-class service. LH423
26 Bwc1976 : When my girlfriend flew that route in late 1998, she is pretty sure she was on an older 747 with the spiral staircase, not the current 400.
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