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UAL 232 Sioux City Crash (1989)  
User currently offlineTsully From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 651 posts, RR: 4
Posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8850 times:

I had the pleasure of sitting next to Al Haynes on a flight to Seattle a few years ago. Captain Haynes and his crew managed to "land" their DC-10 with 250 survivors. Their story is amazing, and although long, worth reading.



Captain Haynes' personal account of Flt. 232 may be found here:


http://yarchive.net/air/airliners/dc10_sioux_city.html

[Edited 2003-07-31 23:51:29]


I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
42 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJayDavis From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 16
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 8753 times:

I've now heard Captain Haynes speak twice about this incident. One of the things that really stuck with me during both speaches is how he started he speech.....

He said if God had not been with them, they would have not made it. I think he said that UA tried in the simulator about 500 times to recreate the same circumstances and each DC-10 pilot who tried, crashed completely.

Not trying to get into a religious discussion, but that really stuck with me.


Jay


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8725 times:

Good movie* on the topic:

"A Thousand Heroes" They play it on either TNT or TBS every now and then, I forget which one.


*not to be confused with a Charlton Heston movie of the same title  Laugh out loud


User currently offlineTsully From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8711 times:

What happened to my original thread? I don't see the original posting.

Strange...

tsully



I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
User currently offlineTsully From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8678 times:

This is very strange, but my original thread isn't appearing at the top of this discussion. Anyway, here it is again:

I had the pleasure of sitting next to Al Haynes on a flight to Seattle a few years ago. Captain Haynes and his crew managed to "land" their DC-10 with 250 survivors. Their story is amazing, and although long, worth reading.



Captain Haynes' personal account of Flt. 232 may be found here:


http://yarchive.net/air/airliners/dc10_sioux_city.html



I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
User currently offlineKL911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5128 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 8592 times:

United Airlines, the cooperation they gave everyone, I was very
impressed with that. A lot of people, were upset at first, there
weren't enough people from United to take care of survivors. Well, we
have about a five or six person staff at Sioux City. Well, what United
did, when they knew this plane was going to crash, they pulled ticket
agents, passenger agents, reservations clerks, right off their jobs at
San Fran, Seattle, wherever they could, threw them on the first
available airplane, without even going home, and headed them to Sioux
City. So by the next morning, or the middle of the next day, they had
at least one United employee for every family that was there.



I'm sooo proud to have worked for this company, like almost evrybody is proud at the company he works for. This is the first time I read this story and it took me a long time. I don't know why, but it's gonna give me a bad nights sleep. God bless them all


User currently offlineTLHFLA From United States of America, joined May 2003, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8556 times:

Did the DC10 come under a lot of scrutiny with this crash like it did in 1979 with the American DC10 crash in Chicago? I am sure the media had a field day, as usual...


Bill in ATL
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8550 times:

Quick correction...you said there were 250 survivors...actually, no. My recollection was that only 110 made it, and about 184 died. If memory serves me, all 10-15 in First Class were lost, and most seated in rows 9-20 (wing area) were lost when it cartwheeled.



User currently offline747buff From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 742 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8524 times:

There were actually 112 fatalities, and 184 survivors. Also, rows 9-20 was where most of the survivors were sitting.

(BTW this is my 400th post! Big grin)



At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
User currently offlineDtwintlflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8505 times:

yes 110 people survived which was amazing considering the crash. Incidently following the investigation, they did modify the DC10 a/c by putting in a switch that can close off the haudraulic valve(wrong terminology of course, but you get my point) the switch is located at the engineer's seat.

User currently offlineTsully From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8469 times:

Going by what the captain of this doomed plane states, of 376 pax, 250 survived. He repeats the 250 surviving figure a few times.

I'd tend to go with what the capt. said, but that's just me.



I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
User currently offlineTsully From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8437 times:

Quick correction...You said there were 250 survivors...actually, no. My recollection was that only 110 made it, and about 184 died. If memory serves me, all 10-15 in First Class were lost, and most seated in rows 9-20 (wing area) were lost when it cartwheeled.


Actually, according to the Captain of this flight:

  1. 250 survivors according to the captain of the plane

  2. Not all in first class were lost (there was a deadheading UA pilot in the last row of first class who climbed out the window)

  3. The plane did not cartwheel, as the media claimed




I love America. I guess that makes me Bush's poodle, but I'd rather be a dog in New York City than a prince in Riyadh.
User currently offlineDc10guy From United States of America, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8426 times:

The DC10's flight controls have no manual reversion ... That is, if you lose all 3 hydraulic systems your going to crash.... Except capt. Haynes kind of proved them wrong. All DC/MD-10's have "Sioux city valves" now that should save #3 hydraulic system fluid in the tail for the r/h outboard elevator in the event of another "Sioux city" type of accident. Also an MD11 can land with just thrust vectoring type of control.


Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
User currently offlineRongotai From New Zealand, joined Sep 2000, 477 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 8389 times:

I do not want to discount Captain Haynes and others invoking God in this story - I have no way of knowing one way or the other. But what I will say is that there is an alternative explanation. My work involves research into human learning and thinking processes in crisis situations, and there are research demonstrated cognitive processes to explain how the United captains at Sioux City and Honolulu (UA841) did it, and why subsequent simulator reenactments couldn't replicate what they did.

User currently offlineDtwintlflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8343 times:

OFFICIALLY 289 on board including pax and crew, 112 died.
And if you saw the crash, you would remember the DC10 did "cartwheel" This is proven by seeing the video and from accounts of survivors. DH DC10 pilot Denny Fitch (I think the spelling is correct) is the one who did the most in the cockpit.

Because the ailerons were both jammed in the same position and damage to engine 2, loss of all hydraulics////He came up with the idea of idiling engine one and full throttle (wrong term of course) for engine three. This kept the plane somewhat in a straight direction. Don't forget every minute the a/c would pitch up 1000 feet and down 1000 feet while slowly turning to right.
No offense to any of those very very talented crew members up front, but if it weren't for Fitch, things may not have come out so well. He had to sit on the floor holding the throttles and going back and forth with power.

Most carriers have this in the sim for the DC10 and almost 100 per cent of the time, the plane does not make it at all even knowing what is going to go wrong. Those survivors owe their lives to those guys and a little luck.


User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8340 times:

Thanks for the corrections, 747buff...I had my numbers right, but reversed...I remember a big article in the paper showing where the survivors sat, etc. Ironically, the ones surviving were over the wing.

I can't say for sure, but UA232 was the beginning of the end for the DC10  Sad
UA flew their last one in 2/2001, and I *think* AA still flys them, as does NWA.



User currently offlineAJ From Australia, joined Nov 1999, 2389 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8298 times:

And if you saw the crash, you would remember the DC10 did "cartwheel" This is proven by seeing the video and from accounts of survivors

To quote Air Disaster Volume 2 by Macarthur Job 'Contrary to some accounts, the aircraft did not cartwheel, but rolled and tumbled upside down as it broke up'.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16858 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 8277 times:

"I can't say for sure, but UA232 was the beginning of the end for the DC10
UA flew their last one in 2/2001, and I *think* AA still flys them, as does NWA"

No they would have been retired anyway because they were being replaced by the 777s and 767s, AA, UAL and CO have all retired their DC-10s in the last two years.

NWA is the only US Major still flying the DC-10.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJETSTAR From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1644 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 8227 times:
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A few years ago I had the opportunity at an aviation function to hear the UA pilot that was deadheading on UA 232, Captain Denny Fitch give a speech on the events that day.

He presented an audio and video timeline combining in sequence the cockpit tapes recovered for the airplane, communications between the various ATC centers and the tower at Sioux City and emergency personnel. As this video proceeded he would narrate other events that were going on in the cockpit. This video continued after the crash to show the rescue operation.

During this approximately 45 minute presentation, not one person talked or even moved from their tables, that’s how compelling and emotional this was. At the end of his presentation, he broke down and started crying because of the lives lost. He said that he had done this presentation over a hundred times and every time he does it he still cries. He is a very religious person and thanked god he and the other survived, but that he was not able to save those who perished that day.

A few things he said were quite amazing.

When Capt. Haynes contacted UA’s SFO maintenance base for instructions, they were told there was nothing that they could do because this was never supposed to happen and Douglas Aircraft had no procedures for this. When he asked them to think of something they were reluctant to communicate back to the aircraft. After the accident when the flight crew met the maintenance personnel at SFO and asked why they would not respond to their requests, they replied it was because they thought they were talking to dead people.

One of the pictures showed a rolled up ball of aluminum and wires. When the airplane cartwheeled and broke up, the cockpit section broke off and was about 200 feet from the main wreckage in the tall corn. No one from the rescue crews came over to this ball of wreckage until about a half hour later and only then did they realize that this was the cockpit section and the flight crew was still alive and trapped in there.

He also showed a picture that a farmer took while he was out in his cornfield and it showed the damage to the horizontal stabilizer and all the flight controls in a slight dropped position. None of the flight controls were jammed, because they had no hydraulic pressure they just dropped down a little.

They were able to lower the landing gear using the emergency extension system and if they were able to land on a runway, they had enough brake pressure in the emergency brake system to apply the brakes. They did think they had a good chance to make the runway once they started the final approach.

Capt. Fitch saved a lot of lives that day.


User currently offlineDodgeCharger From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 210 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 8111 times:

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Capt. Haynes go on to fly for another 4 or 5 years with United after the crash?



User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 8045 times:

DodgeCharger: yes, you are correct. Capt. Haynes did continue to fly for UA for several more years. I don't know when he retired, but recall the news program here in Seattle showing his final flight...it was a DC10, DEN-SEA. Water cannon and all. I think he lived near Sea-Tac airport, but I think he might have passed away a few years ago, hope I'm wrong.

I remember following this accident for a while after. Trivia: they were serving chicken strips for lunch in First Class, when the microscopic crack in titanium hub gave way and #2 failed. I believe it happened over western Iowa, Ames...I think. There was a reward to find the hub from #2, and a farmer found it in his field and it was east of Sioux City. Capt. Haynes wanted the plane away from the city for obvious reasons, and he chose rwy22 as the end of it was close to the river. It was a GE engine, and according to my Dad (who worked on DC-10's and others for UA) United filed suit against GE, never bought another engine from them, and still won't to this day. All PW now, and whatever's on the Airbus fleet.





User currently offlineTWAMD-80 From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 1006 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 8016 times:

Don't worry StevenUhl777, Capt. Haynes is still alive. The crew of UA 232 are heroes. It is amazing how Capt Haynes and Denny Fitch and the F/O were able to crash land the airplane. They really must have had God looking out for them on that day! This story provides an excellent example of crew resource management.

TW



Two A-4's, left ten o'clock level continue left turn!
User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3389 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 7976 times:

I dont really believe in luck.
To me if you stay calm, listen to what others are saying, make sure they listen to you, and do what you need to do, things will ussually work out ok....
sometimes they dont, but as long as you do your part, and do it as best you can, then you have done all you can do.

CanadianNorth.



What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlineCrank From Canada, joined May 2001, 1559 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 7960 times:

I remember seeing a documentary about this, Denny Fitch was interviewed and I remember him saying that he walked down the aisle to check out the wings, and to his surprise, the ailerons on both wings were pointing up.



User currently offlinePositive rate From Australia, joined Sep 2001, 2143 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 7959 times:

According to Air Disaster volume 2 there were 111 fatalities and 185 survivors. About a dozen or so survivors even managed to walk off the plane without even a scratch on them. When you see the crash footage it's hard to believe but it happened. The number 2 engine fan disk failure occured near the town of Alta Iowa as the DC-10 was approaching an airway intersection and in a right turn. Thus all the flight controls jammed in the right position so the plane kept wanting to roll right all the time.

The UA232 crew had a small but significant advantage of the JAL 123 flightcrew. They had check captain Dennis Fitch on board. This reduced the workload enormously and without him on that flight they probably wouldn't have pulled it off. And according to Air Disaster vol. 2: : contrary to some accounts, the aircraft did not cartwheel, but rolled and tumbled upside down as it broke up".


25 United_Fan : I read that GE took full responsibilty for it due to a microscopic crack. I also remember seeing that engine in a farmers' field.
26 Bhmal : God definitely was with this crew. I understand not all lived but He must have had a plan for those that did.
27 Goingboeing : The FO on the flight was a guy named Bill Records who was the pilot flying at the time of the incident. My wife was on a cruise with some friends from
28 Flyinryan99 : When Captain Haynes was in Bowling Green, he reiterated the plane DID NOT cartwheel down the runway. He said that it rose up just prior to landing bec
29 JayDavis : Other factors were also involved at SUX. Capt. Haynes said that on the day they had their incident, most of the Doctors in that city were at a golf to
30 777236ER : Seen as though the mods think this IS aviation related... Let me tell you something, as a Christian walking on this earth, my life is as worse as it i
31 MrLineGuy : Can we PLEASE return to the topic??? Capt. Haynes and the crew of UA 232 along with SUX Emergency Management did an amazing job and the simple fact th
32 JETSTAR : Another little known factor that day in Sioux City that helped save lives was that it was a drill weekend for the Iowa Air National Guard unit that wa
33 JayDavis : Yes, all 4 factors were involved in saving as many lives as were saved. All I said was Captain Haynes said that God was definately involved. I have he
34 777236ER : Whether you want to believe in God is your own choice, as I said earlier and then Boeing777236ER had to go foaming off at the mouth about it. You were
35 Western737 : As I remembered this very much like it was yesterday. I was living in Sioux Falls, SD which is only 85 miles north of Sioux City. Many of Sioux Falls
36 IslandHopper : >Whether you want to believe in God is your own choice, as I said earlier and then Boeing777236ER had to go foaming off at the mouth about it. >You we
37 Ual777contrail : tsully, our DC-10-30'S only held 38 in first and 260 in coach. our DC-10-10's held 28 first and 259 in coach. our last DC-10 configuration was 38 firs
38 Post contains images Tsully : ual 777 contrail, I'm just going by the numbers Haynes stated in that link I provided... I'll cut the guy some slack if his numbers were off.
39 Post contains images Marco : God was with them? 112 people died... But many more survived. The captain believes that God was with him, and he is a religious man. You cannot discou
40 BR715-A1-30 : About UA filing suit with GE. Was this before or after they got the CFM56 equipped 737s?
41 Kellmark : Seems to me that there are three parties at fault here. One, GE for manufacturing the engine with a flaw in the disc, which eventaully failed. Two. Mc
42 Post contains links Petrouchka : Straight from the mouth of Capt. Haynes: "First of all, we all have our own personal beliefs and convictions, and I would never intrude on yours, so f
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