M717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2704 times:
What is the purpose of your post? Maybe I could do like Goingboeing did, and find an AA fare that is 3 times that of FL, then start a thread entitled "AA gouges pax by 300%". That would be just as relevant as your post.
If you want to post some meaningful numbers, then post the 2Q financial results for AA and FL. Nah...I didn't think you'd want to do that.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4424 posts, RR: 35 Reply 4, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2646 times:
I just booked an AirTran BWI-MKE advance roundtrip this month for $116, and I could have had $111 if I had wanted to use the morning flight. Yep, if they weren't flying that route, you know Midwest and the Cartel-network carriers would be rushing to offer $111-$116 advance RT.
JpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4315 posts, RR: 28 Reply 5, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2628 times:
How can Midwest compete with AirTran? They simply cannot with that fare. Look how many more seats airtran has on their 717's than midwest does. If they offered the same fare look where the break even factor would be respectively. It is these low fare carriers that have totally reshaped the domestic industry in the United States, much like Ryanair in Europe. When people go by the lowest fare, YX simply cannot fairly compete. This is what is causing the implementation of the 'Saver Service', and i would be surprised if it eventually took over the whole airline. The LCC revolution is gradually claiming the best domestic carrier this country has had in decades, lets all enjoy 2-2 while we can.
Srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 17298 posts, RR: 51 Reply 6, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2602 times:
The reason why AirTran's prices are higher are because unlike the other airline mentioned on each routing, AirTran does not offer a direct flight between those cities, so one will have to change planes in Atlanta. So your thread is misleading, because you fail to mention that the AirTran flights were not direct flights.
Aa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3345 posts, RR: 8 Reply 7, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2568 times:
Srbmod, this is true, but if you wanted to fly BOS to FLL, would you care? As a matter of fact AA wins two ways: with the best fare and the added convenience of a direct flight. MDW to DFW both stop in ATL (or with DL you can chose CVG), BWI to LAS, AA connect in DFW, FL in ATL. PHL to LAX, HP connect in LAS, FL connect in ATL.
Look at the Midwest 717 and the AirTran 717. Nope, Midwest can't be as cheap as AirTran.
BonanzaAir From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 80 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2541 times:
Post all day long if you like, but Airtran is still going to be standing while AA or Midwest goes through some radical changes to compete, or die. Low Cost Airlines have the day. Every airline wants to be like them.
JpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4315 posts, RR: 28 Reply 9, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2530 times:
You are right, the times are a changin. But, not every airline wants to be like them, they HAVE TO be like them. Midwest didn't jump at the chance to be like AirTran, they would lose everything that makes them special, and keeps flyers like myself coming back.
GroundStop From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 611 posts, RR: 6 Reply 10, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2485 times:
"AMR Corporation lost $0.47 a share this quarter and, while I know FL made a profit, I can't find the number. "
I'd be glad to tell you, without government subsidies, AirTran earned $0.28 a share. With government subsidies, AirTran earned $0.74 a share. From the Atlanta Journal Constitution; "AirTran's shares are up 224 percent over the past seven months, from $3.90 at the end of 2002 to a close of $12.62 Friday."
Makes the stockholders, as well as myself and fellow employees quite happy.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4424 posts, RR: 35 Reply 11, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2467 times:
You are right, the times are a changin. But, not every airline wants to be like them, they HAVE TO be like them. Midwest didn't jump at the chance to be like AirTran, they would lose everything that makes them special, and keeps flyers like myself coming back. Justin
Midwest can save themselves in the new economic situation, I think. Justin, you are correct that Midwest could become entirely "Saver Service." But they don't have to lose their special touch entirely in doing so:
--Convert the fleet to *all 717.* YX can reach anywhere in the US from MKE, MCI, or OMA with the 717. Standardize the fleet.
--Switch seating to "Saver" 2-3 on all planes. Sorry, 2-2 will need to go, but like JetBlue they could still have leather seats and good seat pitch.
--JetBlue spent a load on its DirecTV system, and has the lowest CASM in the industry. What JetBlue spent on DirecTV, Midwest should spend on *on-the-ground* flight catering. Have someone make the nice meals and bake the fresh cookies *on the ground.* Hand each passenger a box meal with cookies as they board. Anyone who's worked for a large corporation or gov't knows how good box meals can be if the caterer is good. These meals of course can be distributed to pax on mainline *and* Skyway flights.
What would still make Midwest special is that they can distribute the meals to all pax without extra charge. Before long, we can be pretty sure that all food other than peanuts on Cartel-network carriers will be sold on board, if at all.
That way, YX could turn the tables--lower their CASM, still offer good service, and offer their Milwaukee hub. Yes, the Skyway flights would probably still be more expensive, but most of them are probably connecting, and their overall fare could be lower.
JpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4315 posts, RR: 28 Reply 14, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2396 times:
Well heres my 2 cents worth for YX:
Personally, i would prefer pitch over width, maybe thats just because im not very wide myself, lol.
definitely have the 717's replace all DC-9's. The MD-80s will be around awhile in the 143/147 configuration serving vacation destinations through a new partnership with Mark Travel/Funjet.
IFE is definitely a good idea, something like Aa757first said would be great to have. YX ditched their pretty good audio IFE a few years ago, i am not real familiar with the reason they did this.
And lastly, while restoring food service to what it once was would be optimal, i know its a long shot. I would like to see meals of that caliber for sale then, rather than 'in flight cafe' box lunch types. Their meals were incredible. On dinner flights back home to MKE from LGA they served filet and lobster tail. No joke, and every flight over 1:30 had a full size meal, even red eyes had either pasta salad or similar on china, or a sandwich with full hershey bar. What im trying to say, is if im going to pay for food, i want to atleast think it is great.
Oh, and with the CC cookies issue, they are warmed inflight, and served from a big pile on the cart. (atleast all flights get cookies now, in the days off full meal service, it was usually only lunch flights, which could be a bummer)
Midwest has avoided chapter 11 for now,a nd hopefully profitablitity comes soon...long live YX. The last thing i want to see is the further development of this NWA 'mini-hub' here in MKE. When northwest has a city in control, we know what happens, $$$ ^^^, and no cookies.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4424 posts, RR: 35 Reply 17, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2327 times:
And why aren't you working up in Milwaukee, Jim, with all the answers? Not everybody out there wants LCCs.
Why do you think I'm flying up there? Just kidding, I'm going to see friends.
Midwest: fighting off Ch. 11.
AirTran: profitable, and stock price rising.
The market is speaking pretty clearly, you're in the minority. I'd like to see Midwest stick around as much as anyone else, but they need to change if that is to happen. Regarding pitch vs. width, Midwest would likely have to go with pitch. 2-2 vs. 2-3 is simply too much capacity lost. With 2-3 seating and 32" or 33" pitch, a 717 could probably still seat 100.
I'm leery of doing *any* cooking or heating in flight. That requires expensive on-board ovens and kitchens, which need to be maintained even if already on board existing a/c. All food preparation should, I think, be done on the ground, and a completed box handed to passengers. Such meals could include items like filet mignon or lobster if YX wants, and maybe a small charge like you suggest Aa757first. But there shouldn't be any china to wash.
How much does non-satellite on-board IFE cost? If it can be done cheaply, maybe, but again, we're talking radical surgery to save YX. My own hunch is that food more than IFE defines Midwest. All resources should, I think, be put in that direction. But it's really interesting to hear all the suggestions.
JpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4315 posts, RR: 28 Reply 19, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2297 times:
Well yeah, 2 X 2 was the plan for the 717's and everything else in the fleet for that matter at that time. Since then, 5 MD-80s have been set for 'saver service' and 2 X 3 refurbishment. If saver service takes off, 2 X 3 is not out of the question for the 717's.
JpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4315 posts, RR: 28 Reply 20, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 2284 times:
Also ( i should have added this before) there is not much of a question about width vs. pitch. Tightening up the pitch to 31-32 will add, oh, about 3 rows of seating, or 12 seats. Going 3-2, you keep your pitch and rows the same, but add another row of seats, instantly 31 more seats. Makes more sense.
DCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4424 posts, RR: 35 Reply 21, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2239 times:
Midwest will most likely not go to 3 by 2. Why? Front page of the 2002 annual report: "These customer-friendly aircraft will feature our signature two-by-two leather seats."
Would that Midwest could do that, Justin. But the airline's financials have worsened since during 2002. The most relavant front pages are those of 2003 editions of the the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. They report that Midwest is barely fighting off bankruptcy, and pleading with Milwaukee County for help. What the last year's annual report said can change very, very quickly when a company is staring into the abyss of Ch. 11, or worse, Ch. 7. If management decides that 2 x 3 seating needs to become standard airline-wide, they'll do it.
Long live YX, indeed. Let's hope they find the right formula to profit in the new industry economic environment.
Capt078 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 421 posts, RR: 1 Reply 24, posted (10 years 4 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2205 times:
several of the above comments were very accurate, the most important of which was the comment that aiirtran's costs are significantly lower. now, to understand low-cost carriers (also known as low-fare carriers), you have to appreciate that this moniker applies to business travel (last minute travel). all airlines offer low fares if you book them at the right time. it is very common to find the lowest fare for a specific route on one of the "service" (major hub and spoke) carriers, but usually this requires a significantly early booking (at least 14 or 21 days). the catch, is the last minute walk-up fare. while aa or delta might match or beat one of the low-cost fares, their respective walk-up fares will usually be astronomical. now, you may find the walk-up fares are near the same as the low-cost carrier because the major wants to match the lcc, but know that on uncompetitive routes, that high-cost carrier will have extremely high walk-up fares. conversely, southwest and jetblue, ata, airtran, and america west all promise fares no higher than $299 each way (walk up). when southwest first did this, it was unprecedented. that's why, even when the majors may offer an equal or even cheaper fare, southwest loyalists will still chose swa, because they're honest and fare and passengers aren't baffled by some arcane fare structure.
25 JpetekYXMD80: M717, Before the troubles the airline industry has faced in the aftermath of 9/11, Midwest was doing alright. They were not rapidly expanding, they ne
26 Aa757first: Here's a good example of a rapidly growing carrier. Were they making money? Yeah, lots of it. Were they buying new planes? Yep. Were they adding route
27 M717: Hey Aa757first, ValuJet became the current AirTran, one of the more successful and profitable airline companies currently flying. Still making money,
28 Wedgetail737: Air Tran has made quite an impact on ICT in terms of lowering fares.