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Domestic Service To JFK  
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 4023 times:

I was just checking my AA timetable and discovered an interesting tidbit: There are only two -- yes, count 'em, two -- daily nonstops from DFW to JFK. There are NO AA nonstops from ORD to JFK. I understand that most domestic travellers prefer LGA and that west-coast cities have JFK service due to the perimeter rule, but this seems odd to me. Is JFK that focused on international travelers? If so, why does AA fly A300s and 767s from MIA to JFK?


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
25 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3986 times:

JFK is mostly O&D Traffic... trying to get from one terminal to another currently is a pain in the rectum.

User currently offlineUal747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3982 times:

Ugh! Tell me about it. I had an interesting time trying to plan my vacation to London this March. I had an AAdvantage award- 30,000 mile. I was to travel DFW-CLT, spent a few days, then I had to fly from CLT to MIA THEN to JFK to catch my international flight to LHR. Upon returning to JFK from LHR, I had to take a taxi to LGA to catch a flight to DFW. Rather annoying. I too can't understand why airlines don't have more frequencies to JFK, AA especially.

UAL747


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 3959 times:

B6 is the only airline able to make people want to fly Domestically out of JFK (save LAX, SFO), Eastern, Pan Am, TWA, AA, DL have all tried building up domestice service at JFK over the years only to pull back.

AA or UAL have almost no service to Chicago Ohare, UAL does not even serve Denver. And American Eagle has dropped the following routes over the last couple years..

JFK-
Albany, Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Raliegh, Richmond, Washington Dulles, Providence, Hartford, Worcester, Cleveland, Columbus, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Manchester NH, Portland ME, New Burgh, Baltimore etc. (there are a few more I can't remember).

All American Eagle operates from JFK now is BOS, DCA, Montreal.

JFK is just to hard to get to for most folks in the Tri-State area, people go there for flights they can't get from LGA like International or LAX, SFO etc.

Most people (and airlines) consider Laguardia as JFK's Domestic terminal since they are both in Queens, there was a plan in the Mid-1990s to link JFK and LGA by rail.

Perhaps one day that plan will be realized.




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 4, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3871 times:

Thanks for the explanation, STT757; that clears things up a bit. Still, I can't help but wonder why there are so many seats daily from JFK to MIA? if people are flying to MIA to get to Latin American destinations, couldn't they still fly from LGA to get there, if it's more convenient?


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 5, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3791 times:

So many seats on MIA-JFK because, simply put, Miamians love JFK. Miami-New York City traffic is alot of VFR traffics (Visiting Friends and Relatives), in addition to business, and they are not all going to Manhattan. JFK is the easiest way to get to Queens, a huge market from Miami. Sometimes, it can also be the most convienent airport to Brooklyn too. There are about 16-18 daily FLL-JFK flights too.


a.
User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3720 times:

I guess that makes sense ... it just seems odd that there's THAT much disparity between the MIA market and the DFW, ORD or DEN markets. I guess the MIA-NYC market is just much bigger; AA also offers 9 daily flights MIA-LGA.


"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 7, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3711 times:

I guess the MIA-NYC market is just much bigger; AA also offers 9 daily flights MIA-LGA.

With 15,000 people flying between Miami and New York City each day (that does not include people flying between the two and making a connection to somewhere else, bu does include people flying between the two via another city, such as Atlanta. Also does not include people flying to Islip, Newburgh, and White Plains), the only domestic city pair busier is Los Angeles-San Francisco (which I think is 18,000 a day).



a.
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 8, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 3607 times:

There's not that much demand for JFK-Miami, AA inherited that route from Eastern. It's only 5 daily, and no one else flies JFK-Miami.

DL dropped that route, and B6 is not even interested.

AA has way more flights from LGA-MIA than from JFK (although JFK gets widebodies).

The reason why JFK-MIA is a success is because Eastern pioneered that route a long time ago and developed the demand, no one ever had substantial service from JFK to anywhere domestically except LAX, SFO.

B6 has broke that pre-conceived notion, however at the expense of AA and DL's own aspirations of building domestic hubs at JFK. As soon as B6 launched service from JFK - Up State NY and Florida (save Miami) AA dropped all competiting service and moved it to LGA, AA is making a stand with regards to B6's expansion Westward from JFK which threatens some of AA's most lucrative domestic routes.

AA is scaling back their JFK terminal project, it's going to look much like the operation they have today. Long haul domestic routes to the West Coast, and International routes. Basically everything at JFK will be what they can't do from LGA, and what they can do from LGA they will not do from JFK.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineJrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3575 times:

DL(Song) and Jetblue both serve FLL from JFK. DL dropped much of its MIA service in favor of its operation at FLL, which is really in the same metro area.

User currently offlineSsides From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4059 posts, RR: 21
Reply 10, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3561 times:

There's not that much demand for JFK-Miami, AA inherited that route from Eastern. It's only 5 daily, and no one else flies JFK-Miami.

AA has way more flights from LGA-MIA than from JFK (although JFK gets widebodies).

That's my point. AA has 5 daily MIA-JFK flights, but these are on A300s and 767s. That's approximately 1,158 seats daily to JFK. There are 9 daily MIA-LGA flights, on MD-80s and 757s. That's 1,350 seats; roughly comparable. To me, this indicates strong demand for MIA-JFK. Of course, I don't know the load factors on these, but ...

Feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, it's just a curiosity.



"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 11, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3534 times:

STT757, yes, there is that much demand between Miami and JFK. MIA-JFK traffic is lower-yield and caters to the Queens community. Hence the big planes (four A300s and a 762) and only five flights. When Miamians go to NYC, unlike in most other cases, many may not even step foot in Manhattan. Some just go to Queens or Brooklyn. As JFK convienently serves the Queens area, where a the largest amount of Miami's NYC population comes from, MIA-JFK becomes a popular route. There are some connection opportunities on JFK-MIA too, hence they do have a three-class 762 on the route to connect on three-class flights, but the majority of AA's dense Caribbean and Latin American destinations, including all five Dominican cities (LRM seasonally), PAP, EZE, SJO (seasonally), and GRU are served from JFK.

MIA-LGA is higher-yielding and caters to Miamians going to Manhattan, for both business and pleasure, as well as VFR. Hence, smaller planes and nine daily flights (ten this winter), plus another four flights from LGA and three from PBI.

The MIA-EWR route on AA caters to some business travelers, but mainly to those in Northern Jersey. They don't call Miami the sixth borough for nothing.



a.
User currently offlineTimz From United States of America, joined Sep 1999, 6871 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3458 times:

"no one ever had substantial service from JFK to anywhere domestically except LAX, SFO"

After 1965-1970 (?), you mean.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

"When Miamians go to NYC, unlike in most other cases, many may not even step foot in Manhattan".

Believe it or not many of the folks traveling from NY-Miami are Hisidic Jews, mostly from Brooklyn. There must be a large Hisidic community in Miami, I flew LGA-MIA back in '90 on a Eastern L-1011 and there were quite a few Hisidic Folks traveling that route.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineElal106 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 975 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Speaking about AA at JFK, how is their Domestic Admirals Club Lounge?


User currently offlineMAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 33038 posts, RR: 71
Reply 15, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3299 times:

Believe it or not many of the folks traveling from NY-Miami are Hisidic Jews, mostly from Brooklyn. There must be a large Hisidic community in Miami, I flew LGA-MIA back in '90 on a Eastern L-1011 and there were quite a few Hisidic Folks traveling that route.

I believe it. New York City has the world's largest Jewish community and Miami's is the world's second largest.



a.
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8018 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

I think people are forgetting that there are very large communities of Jews and Puerto Ricans living on Queens and Brooklyn--and they love JFK because it is 1) very easy to fly to the southeast Florida area from JFK (MIA, FLL, PBI) with its very large expatriate population of New Yorkers (you'll be surprised how many expat New Yorkers live in Palm Beach and Broward counties, a situation that has existed for near 100 years; there are some very large Jewish enclaves there almost just as long) and Puerto Ricans love JFK because of the many direct flights to SJU using AA A300B4-600R's.

User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3268 times:

Doesn't AA fly A300s between EWR and MIA too?

User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3249 times:

"Doesn't AA fly A300s between EWR and MIA too?"

Yes, I think AA has three daily flights between EWR-SJU one of which is an A300.

I got bumped off a CO flight from SJU-EWR a couple years ago, they put me on a AA 757 (FIRST CLASS) into EWR (nonstop).



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 3193 times:
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Don't forget that JFK is the easiest of the three big NYC airports to reach from Long Island. Long Island has a substantial population, and like many city folks who went down to Southern Florida to relocate, many Long Islanders moved there as well, so the demand for friends and family traffic may be great to both LGA and MIA.

An interesting note on the JFKAirtrain, which has become the train to nowhere. It is almost complete, but after 15 years of taking $3 from each passenger that has traveled out of the three airports, as a New Yorker, I have to say that the Port Authority of NY and NJ falls short on delivery. Here is a train line that connects the JFK to the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR), the nations most over-crowded commuter train line. As it is, on some busy lines at rush hour, people stand on the train to Manhattan. How do passengers with big suitcases hope to get in those crowded trains? And if the single-seat option is not viable (PA keeps saying it is on the horizon, but no concrete funding, plan, or interest seem to exist), would it not be at least connect the train from JFK to LGA, and therefore create a manageable transfer between the airports.


User currently offlinePROSA From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5644 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3152 times:

An interesting note on the JFKAirtrain, which has become the train to nowhere. It is almost complete, but after 15 years of taking $3 from each passenger that has traveled out of the three airports, as a New Yorker, I have to say that the Port Authority of NY and NJ falls short on delivery. Here is a train line that connects the JFK to the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR), the nations most over-crowded commuter train line. As it is, on some busy lines at rush hour, people stand on the train to Manhattan. How do passengers with big suitcases hope to get in those crowded trains?

LIRR trains generally aren't SRO outside of peak direction at rush hour. That would mean trains heading to Manhattan on weekday mornings and heading from Manhattan on weekday late afternoons. Not too many JFK passengers will be heading to Manhattan during morning rush hour given the schedules at JFK. Afternoons might be a bit more of a problem, though as far as I can tell most airport-bound passengers will travel before the main rush hour.




"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
User currently offlineJrlander From United States of America, joined Aug 1999, 1105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 3125 times:

Planemannyc:

I would have to agree with you about the possibility of extending the JFK train to LGA. That would make a whole heck of a lot of sense. We'll see if it ever happens. I'm not as concerned about the LIRR transfer, though. The A train to Lower Manhattan is still a viable option. While in graduate school in the Chelsea neighborhood, I would often take the A subway to JFK. Though the train ride was a bit on the long side, the only thing I hated was the bus to the terminals. What a nightmare! But the Airtrain will make that a more viable option. The LIRR may be crowded, but people will still take it. If the LIRR gets a large increase in business, there is some room to expand the number of trains on routes. I would hope that they would do that. I really wish that they would have a train that ran express from the JFK Airtrain station to Penn Station. If they were really smart, and could find the money to redo the tracks, they would get together with the NJ transit and run one train from JFK to Penn Station to Newark Penn Station to EWR.


User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 3096 times:
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Jrlander,

Totally. Think of a loop: JFK-LGA-Penn-EWR-New WTC-JFK. It may cost a lot, but it would definitely bring a lot of luster back to the city airports....Perhaps if NYC gets the Olympics in 2012?
But as I said before, I would be content seeing JFK-Jamaica Station-LGA. That would surely benefit both passengers and New York's sagging economy.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16885 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3076 times:

"Don't forget that JFK is the easiest of the three big NYC airports to reach from Long Island"

I think LGA is more conveinant to folks from the North Shore.

With regards to the JFK/EWR Airtrains, no one seat ride can be established right now between EWR or JFK to Manhattan. Not untill new tunnels are built under the Hudson and under the East River, the 4 tunnels that carry LIRR trains into Manhattan from Queens were built by the Pennsylvania Rail road nearly 100 years ago.

Those tunnels are used to 100% capacity during the Morning and Afternoon, a typical LIRR train heading into Manhattan carries atleast 1,000 people. If a "one seat ride" connection were built from JFK-Manhattan the most people to board a single train would probably be 200, there's no way anyone is going to displace or interrupt the commutes of 1,000 people to accomadate 200 out of towners.

Same with EWR, there are only two tracks underneath the Hudson river for NJ Transit and Amtrak to access Manhattan from NJ. Those tubes are operating at capacity aswell, any extra capacity that is freed up most go to relieving the commutes of NJ residents.

There's planning going on right now to build a new Hudson river tunnel for Amtrak and NJ Transit, it's expected to cost about $3 Billion. When/if that's built the first priority is to relieve crowding on NJ Transit's existing trains, then reserving slots for EWR could be considered.

With the LIRR there are two key projects, one under study and one set to begin construction.

The first is called "East Side Access", basically it's going to utilize the lower Level of the 63rd street Subway tunnel from Queens to Manhattan to allow LIRR to send some trains to Grand Central Terminal. Thus freeing up some slots to Penn station for a "direct" Airtrain trip to Manhattan Penn Station, the second has been developed since the 9-11 attacks.

The plan is to basically build a new East river tunnel from Brooklyn-Lower Manhattan to allow LIRR trains to access the new Fulton Street transit hub being built.

That would allow JFK Airtrains to access Lower Manhattan, that project will cost about $3 Billion.

Remember Manhattan is an Island, to get trains there you have to build new tunnels. The current tunnels are at full capacity.

One more plan is the PATH extension to EWR airport from the New World Trade Center Transit hub.

Here are some links for more comprehensive detail.

Plan to bring LIRR, JFK Airtrains to Lower Manhattan. And PATH trains to EWR.

http://www.renewnyc.com/plan_des_dev/transportation/pdf/chapter2.pdf

Fulton street station improvements, where new Lower Manhattan LIRR station and JFK Airtrain would go.

http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mta/planning/fstc/planned.htm

LIRR East Side Access to Grand Central Terminal.

http://www.parsons.com/about/press_rm/potm/08-2001/index.html

JFK-Manhattan, One Seat ride.

http://www.nylovesbiz.com/Press/2000/oneseat2.htm

Prominent architect to design new World Trade Center PATH station, where trains will run to EWR.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/08/01/nyregion/01APPR.html




Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineAaron747 From Japan, joined Aug 2003, 8184 posts, RR: 26
Reply 24, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3061 times:

MIA's jewish community is larger than LA's??


If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
User currently offlinePlanemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1008 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (11 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3053 times:
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STT757,

Thanks for the very informative post. As with everything else, NYC is at capacity for most things (just look at the traffic jams in Manhattan). The foresight of our forefathers from a century to a half-century ago propelled this city to be the epicenter of business and arts. I am afraid if we don't make similar investments other cities will overtake us soon. Integrated mass transit has to be an investment that we as a city must make just to retain our leadership. And connecting our airports to our city should take a greater priority. I know the challenge is great, but overcoming it will be a testament to this great city.


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