Teahan From Belgium, joined Nov 1999, 5255 posts, RR: 67 Posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 8087 times:
Article from today's Sunday Times. I'll post it in full since non-UK readers cannot access it.
***quote*** Virgin in talks on £1bn jet order
Dominic O’Connell
VIRGIN ATLANTIC is in advanced talks with Boeing and Airbus over a £1 billion order that could be finalised before the end of the year.
Virgin, which last week reported a pre-tax profit of £15.7m — compared with a pre-tax loss of £92.6m a year earlier — is understood to be negotiating to replace its older Airbus A340 aircraft.
A company spokesman yesterday refused to be drawn on the size of the order, but industry sources said it was understood that talks in Seattle and Toulouse, the headquarters of Boeing and Airbus, centred on a deal for up to 10 new aircraft.
If a deal were struck this year, it would be the largest order placed by a British airline in 2003.
The biggest so far was a £500m contract for Bombardier aircraft placed by FlyBe, the regional airline. British Airways, by some distance Britain’s largest airline, has ordered a capital-investment freeze, and is not expected to buy new aircraft for the foreseeable future.
Virgin’s most recent aircraft purchases have all been with Airbus — six A380 super jumbos and a fleet of A340-600s.
But a source at the airline said it had not shut the door on Boeing, which is eager to find a British customer for the recently launched larger versions of its fast-selling 777 twinjet. “Whichever manufacturer gets the order, they will have to have sharpened their pencils,” the source said.
Virgin’s accounts, published last week, reveal for the first time that the company bought slots at Heathrow airport. It paid out £13m, almost all of which went on the purchase of two pairs of prime-time slots from SN Brussels, the Belgian airline.
Plans by Sir Richard Branson, Virgin’s chairman, for direct flights to Australia face a crucial test next month with the start of aviation talks between Britain and Hong Kong. Virgin needs to be granted traffic rights between Hong Kong and Australia before it can fly the route.
Cathay Pacific and Qantas, both members of the BA-led Oneworld group of carriers, are expected to oppose Virgin’s plans. Branson has long coveted the so-called “kangaroo” routes linking Europe with Australia over Asia, but has avoided head-to-head confrontation with the powerful BA-Qantas alliance.
***(unquote)***
While the article really doesn't give away much, here are some of my thoughts:
- Do the A340-300's really need replacing? They are hardly that old, especially considering the Virgin still uses B747-200's.
- Can all of the company's routes support the A340-600 (I doubt we'll see A340-500's)? I would have thought the smaller A340 would have been ideal to develop new routes.
- The B777-200ER comes to mind as quite ideal to replace A340-300's aircraft, however the article mentions "recently launched larger versions of its fast-selling 777 twinjet" so that means we can forget that.
- Has Virgin damaged its relationship with Boeing due to the use of the "4 Engines 4 Long Haul" slogan? Simply pulling another Iberia?
Jeremiah
[Edited 2003-08-11 01:48:35]
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
Korg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 8 Reply 5, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7728 times:
I think virgin is most likly to go with the A345!. It would be awsome if they pick the 777 but that would break their "pride" rule of "4 engine 4 Long Haul".
Airchabum From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 769 posts, RR: 13 Reply 7, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 7687 times:
Hi Jeremiah
Thanks for posting the article. I work at VS but haven't heard anything official yet...maybe there will be an announcement on Monday. I think that we have shot ourselves in the foot with the '4 engines 4 longhaul' slogans, however I don't suppose Boeing would refuse to sell us 10 new a/c because of this! I think the 777 (any version) would fit nicely in the VS fleet and would be better than the A340-300 on routes to East Coast USA, Africa, India etc.
The oldest A340-300 is +10yrs old now and they are really too small for most of the current routes. The only service that does not regularly utilise a 747 or 346 is the Gatwick to Port Harcourt route.
As a sidenote, I guess now that most of the worlds major airlines are struggling and not looking to buy new a/c in the near future it is a good time to pick up some bargains
Elal106 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 975 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7584 times:
Virgin's Engineers have not been so happy with the a340-600 and the same with many of their passengers.......it seems quite interesting to see which aircraft they will go for. I wouldnt be surprised if they went for the 777s this time.
Teahan From Belgium, joined Nov 1999, 5255 posts, RR: 67 Reply 9, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 7562 times:
Airchabum,
Interesting post, thanks.
Elal106,
Well I heard there were some initial tech problems (that baby changing table braking due to passengers joining the mile high club ), most of these have now been solved. As for passenger complaints, I believe most of those are due to the J2000 seat which will be replaced by the Suite.
Jeremiah
Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
Airchabum From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 769 posts, RR: 13 Reply 12, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7389 times:
Cancidas
4 346's in service with another 6 on order. Also 12 744 (+1 on order), 10 343 and 2 leased 747-200's.
Jeremiah/Elal106
There have been a few tech problems as there always are with new a/c. This week we've had an ongoing problem with the cabin interphone system on one a/c that caused a few delays and cancellations. I don't believe the pax like the 346's any more or less than any other VS a/c...they're more interested in seat/service/IFE/etc than what sort of plane it is.
Bmi330 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1448 posts, RR: 1 Reply 13, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 7341 times:
Were the a343 not being replaced by the 346 like one in one out sort of deal? Dose it not make sence to stick with a346 or changing all non 744's to the 777?
Lufthansa From Christmas Island, joined May 1999, 2843 posts, RR: 11 Reply 14, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7175 times:
Its Airbuses deal!
All new types have teething problems, but the A346 has been more efficient
than expected so I would expect that they'll stay with AI.
Now, the 343 is the problem....its just too small for certain routes. Even if virgin don't need the range that the 345 would afford, the extra increase in capacity may well be the prime reason. But come on now, this is one of the most
unconventional and smartest airlines in the world. They're not going to let
anybody think they have their business, hands down....they want a good
deal!
Besides that, the capacity is the issue....and from that point of view, it would make pure economic sense to stick with AI. Especially if fuel prices increase, the fuel burn advantage of Quads on long haul will become more important.
That is really what 4 engines 4 long haul, is really about! LETS NOT FORGET VIRGIN WAS THE LAUNCH CUSTOMER FOR the 346! get real...they're hard core loyalists.....Saying virgin is going to order 777 is like saying united is going to order 340s....not gonna happan! You may even see the 744 phased out within 5 years for the same reason.....the 346 is considerably more efficient and has far greater cargo capacity.
STT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 15278 posts, RR: 55 Reply 15, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7146 times:
I'll keep crow warm in the microwave for you, just in case
Airchabum From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2001, 769 posts, RR: 13 Reply 16, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 7080 times:
LAXINTL
You have mail....
Lufthansa
Some good points but i don't get the bit about 'the fuel burn advantage of Quads on longhaul will become more important'. Aren't 2 engines more efficient than 4?? The 744/346 are good for the long routes (+10hrs) but VS has an increasing amount of not-so-longhaul routes (eg Nigeria, India, (Mid East??)) for which these types aren't best suited.
Korg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 8 Reply 17, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6993 times:
Lufthansa,
/hard core loyalists/ is not how things work. If you driver one brand car all of your life and you think that brand is the best. But another big brand comes up with the perfect everything including a lower price that beats the brand you were driving and thought was the best. You will go with the lower price and better car, right? Your not going to pay more and lose features just for loyalty? If virgin is giving Boeing the chance prove how the 777 is a much better aircraft. Then I think the A346 is not meeting what they needed it for!
Motorhussy From New Zealand, joined Mar 2000, 2558 posts, RR: 11 Reply 18, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 6994 times:
The idea of a new two engined component to Virgin's long haul fleet really appears a red-herring deferring attention away from or towards something.
Remember we're talking about a master of media manipulation and spin doctory with Sir Richard. What's really on the agenda and why has this story arisen now?
Is it a piece of leverage to gain a better deal from airbus? With an A340-500 or a new 777-200LR he could start a new Kangaroo route with London (LHR) - Perth (PRT) - Sydney (SYD)!
Boeing4ever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6935 times:
I think Virgin won't abandon its "4 Engines 4 Long Haul" BS anytime soon. They've got A340s and 747s. They ditched their twinjet A321 (I don't think it was for their slogan though, they probably just didn't need it).
If Virgin does order 777, the slogan will be "2 engines 2 times safer" like Kevs said or...
"2 sorry 2 boeing over 4 engines fumble"
"2 much pride 2 say sorry and get 2 engine planes"
Planemannyc From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 982 posts, RR: 11 Reply 22, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6919 times:
Or is Virgin taking a queue from it's 'parent' SIA and thinking of trading in A340s for B777s...ok, that's very unlikely (I can guess this will raise a few eyebrows...but fear not -- or don't get your hopes too high...I just mention this just because airlines have been known to switch from one type to another while still receiving deliveries of the first type).
I have to say that VS A340-600's are very comfortable to fly in. I flew the type in May, and maybe it was a coincidence, one of the flights was pulled away from the runway because of technical difficulties. No biggie. We stayed by the runway for about 25 minutes before returning on line for a delayed departure after VS engineers checked out the a/c. It was great for me as I got a chance to view a great many jets take off from very close distance!
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4247 posts, RR: 50 Reply 23, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6906 times:
Virgin will face a lot of maintainenace and re-training costs if it orders Boeing 777-200s/300s. If it does order a dozen 777s, it will help gain itself a lot of political advantage in USA, however it wont be a wise decision to order the B 777 since its fleet composition doesnt suit it.
The only reason why they ordered the A 343s and then A 346s is because of the deep discounts that AIRBUS gave them...otherwise I bet you that they would have bought both 772s and 773s thus making the fleet an all Boeing 744, 773 and 772 one!!!
How about replacing their A 343s by A 332s? But then again ppl say that its 4 Engine slogan would be lost...so it would better than to order the A 345s if thats the case!
Dalecary From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (8 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 6847 times:
744/744ER for the introduction of Australian services in 2004/5 is what I have heard. The 744 is still the aircraft of choice on the Kangaroo route.
Dale.
25 MD-11 forever: "The only reason why they ordered the A 343s and then A 346s is because of the deep discounts that AIRBUS gave them...otherwise I bet you that they wo
26 Eg777er: I seem to remember this story popped up at exactly this point in the summer last year (and it revolved around a 'confirmed' order for the 773ER by Vir
27 Kevs: A few months ago there are some information flowing around a.net that A346 is under specification and upset some launch customer like CX? and a modifi
28 Ikarus: A lot of people don't give the 777 a chance. Well, I disagree. First of all, an advertisement campaign can be stopped easily, and with public collecti
29 Tekelberry: Some people are saying that VS will never ever buy the 777 and why even bring it up.... Well VS said they might...that's why. The marketing slogan is
30 AngelAirways: since virgin tend to prefer operating higher-capacity, lower-frequency flights for economic reasons, paired off with the expected increase in traffic
31 Bestwestern: VS should opt for the A330-200's Increase frequencies to JFK, EWR, LAX, BOS and SFO, attracting more business passengers Re-commence flights to CPT, O
32 Lufthansa: Airchabum In answer to your question about Quads....well it is a common misconception that twinjets burn less fuel. You see, an aircraft type must be
33 MD-11 forever: Lufthansa, I agree to 100% on your points! (shall I inform you that you are now on my respected users list?) Unfortunately,there is a strong movement
34 Kevs: I wonder, is Quad really burn less fuel in the case mentioned. There is no engines that can be 100% efficient, so with the less number engines, at a s
35 EGGD: Come on now, lets not be absurd. For one, if VS order the 777 I will eat my hat, there isn't a cats chance in hell that will happen. The only reason V
36 VC-10: Virgin's Engineers have not been so happy with the a340-600 On what facts is this statement based?
37 HlywdCatft: If they were to get the 777 to replace the A340-300s, their new slogan could be "Look we now have engines and not hairdryers" I seriously doubt Virgin
38 Ikarus: Hmmmm.... would a Boeing order increase their chances of slots in Baghdad ahead of BA? EGGD: Why not? You aren't telling me you thing Branson is serio
39 Teahan: The article (and others which emerged today from Yahoo News and such) clearly mention that Virgin would be considering new longer range B777's (-200LR
40 9V-SVE: Well...if Branson spends half his time painting his planes with 4 engines 4 long haul and he bought a two engined plane for long haul...you know...hyp
41 Kevs: lol... aren't branson loves to fly with hot air ballons? he will become hypocrisy when he find out that his hot air ballon cannot make long haul flyin
42 CX747: One aircraft that hasn't been mentioned as a possible order candidate is the current 4 engine Boeing offering! VS already operates the 747 and is look
43 Bestwestern: Virgin needs to rationalize its fleet mixture down, not up. Ordering the 777 would be crazy, as it offers no commonality over the 747 or Airbus fleet
44 N79969: I agree with EGGD. This is about as serious as Boeing as when Lufthansa or Iberia says it considering Boeing airplanes. They are simply trying to keep
45 Airchabum: Lufthansa Thanks for your reply. I know a bit about performance but I'll admit not too much about the economics. I don't doubt that an engine on a 4-e
46 Teahan: Its quite funny that the people who often accuse many Airbus orders of being based on politics then come along and want airlines to order Boeing for..
47 CX747: I clearly stated that I don't like it when politics come into play. They do however come into play more often than not. I was just thinking of one pos
48 RayChuang: I think for commonality reasons the most likely plane VS orders to replace the A340-300 is the A340-600HGW, similar to the A346HGW's that EK ordered b
49 9V-SVC: I think most likely they will get A340-500/600 since they are already operating A340-600 and A380 but if they get the Boeing 777s i wouldnt mind eithe
50 Crosswind: I don't think so.... ------- Username: Crosswind Posted Wed Nov 27 2002 23:26:46 UTC+1 and read 1346 times. Last weeks Flight International carried a
51 ConcordeBoy: 772 carries more pax than A346, surely 773 carry a lot more. Not exactly sure where you're getting that from, as A346 is certified to carry nearly 75m
52 Gigneil: Kevi- Your posts on this thread have been full of nonfacts. 1) The 772 doesn't have remotely the capacity of the 346... even the 345 is a tidge larger
53 Wingman: This news stroy is simply incredible. While it doesn't carry comments from Boeing itself, I'm sure they won't be getting their blood pressure up. But
54 Gigneil: Boeing should start the bidding war at 50% off list with free training and spares for 10 years and just tell Branson it's a best and final offer perio
55 Airchabum: What's all this 'political' rubbish about 'VS are never going to order Boeings'? The current fleet is 14 747s and 14 A340s so that hardly makes VS an
56 Lufthansa: KEVS.... The heat is exchange from engine oil....in the pylons and its kind of a radiator like device.....its NOT VIA THIN AIR. This issue isn't that
57 Wingman: Well, I'm certainly not one that will claim politics with Virgin, but the man HAS BEEN trash-talking twins over water for a long long time now. My poi
58 Jeffrito: The A340-600 is an almost one-for-one match with the 777-300ER in every respect. Boeing claims they have a significant efficiency advantage: http://ww
59 Lufthansa: Gigniel....well done and thanks for putting some logic back in this thread. It amazes me how some people would rather deny obvious realities...especia
60 Gigneil: Yeah I disregard claims from either and try to just look at facts. The fact is there is insufficient data available on either airframe to say that one
61 GDB: If BA did not have a big fleet of 777s, do you really think that BS Branson would have come out with that sneering attempt to make out that BA is less
62 ConcordeBoy: The simple fact is that VS has not, does not and will not fly twins past the beach. And you actually believe that?????View Large View MediumPhoto &cop
63 CX747: It would be nice to see the 777-300ER in VS's livery or more 747-400s, but the overall likelihood of that happening is extremely small. VS already ope
64 Ikarus: And the plane we all forgot... he could always be talking about the 7E7, you never know... and if you count the APU and the RAM Air turbine, 4 engines
65 Dutchjet: Interesting comments and most of the statements above are 100% correct......but whatever Virgin orders, be it 744, 777, A34X or A33X aircraft, or a co
66 ConcordeBoy: If I were Boeing, the extent of my negotiations with Branson would be to call him and tell him, "List price". No use in getting used to drive down the
67 Airchabum: Lufthansa Thanks for the info. Are the Trents on a 346 not the same size as on a 777 though?? Obviously those on a 777 would be more powerful but are
68 Gigneil: The Trent 800 on the 777 is substantially larger and heavier than the Trent 500. The 777 line is pretty busy - and the first revenue flight of the 773
69 Teahan: Airchabum, I might be wrong but I believe that Airbus does in fact have available A340-600/500 delivery positions in 2004. As for B777's, there are de
70 Teahan: AviationNow.com's report of the story has thrown in one new element, not yet mentioned here: http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_aviationdai
71 ConcordeBoy: First 773ER delivery is April '04 to Air France (thought the plane will actually belong to ILFC)
72 BA777: OK then chappies, lets look at the ranges involved. The great circle from LHR-SYD is 9188nm, the aircraft, if it were a 777 would be safe with only 12
73 Lufthansa: Airchabum, The trent 500 is more in the class of the earler RR 545. To give u an idea in the difference in size. -------- RR Trent 800: Thrust range:
74 Ikarus: Teahan: What influence? I think it increases Boeing's chances - especially if they decide to go shopping for the US LCC, Virgin Atlantic, and the Paci
75 Shenzhen: Gigneil, "Kevi- Your posts on this thread have been full of nonfacts. 1) The 772 doesn't have remotely the capacity of the 346... even the 345 is a ti
76 CX747: Branson is definately an opportunist. After leasing his first Boeing 747-200, the Boeing company rep said, "It is easier to lease a fleet of planes to
77 Capt078: lufthansa and shenzen: you two are like a couple of little school girls stomping your feet out of protest. grow up. lufthansa, you sound ten times mor
78 N79969: Two engines are more efficient than four engines generally speaking. First, mx costs increase with the number of engines whether mx schedules are dete
79 HlywdCatft: Branson could fly with the slogan for the 773- My engines are bigger
80 Motorhussy: Capt078 Yep all sounds like good sense to me. Just one addition. When selecting aircraft, an airline also has to analyse what its desired flying publi
81 Lufthansa: Okay, Im standing buy my argument, and YES Capt078, the 777 engines do use some of the very best most efficient technology around.....And guess what..
82 VC-10: Please continue the fuel heat debate on the Tech/Ops board. http://www.airliners.net/discussions/tech_ops/read.main/66758/
83 N79969: Notwithstanding jargon thrown around above, two-engine airplanes are generally more economical than four engine airplanes. Part of the economics stems
84 Intheknow: I used to work in cabin safety at VS so let me tell you a couple of things. 1; pre sept 11 we were VERY close to getting 773s 2; we had a cabin mock u
85 CX747: Very interesting to here that they had a cabin mockup of the 777-300ER. In my amateur opinion that would mean that they were serious about getting the
86 Intheknow: They were 773s not ERs or though now they may be!!
87 Leezyjet: The "4 Engines 4 Longhaul" slogan was not just a Virgin marketing slogan. It was developed in conjunction with Airbus to co-incide with the launch of
88 CX747: What is the cargo capaiblities of the 777-300ER compared to the A340-600?
89 Airchabum: Lufthansa Thanks for the info...we learn something every day! Re your point about overflying Russia to the Far East, we use 346s LHR-NRT and we still
90 Ikarus: Nice to see a fellow Virgin on here! Me too, me too! .... Oh, wait, wrong forum... Maybe we should place bets... If virtual markets & bets are so suc
91 Intheknow: Airchabum! Hi, nice to see you too. Leezyjet and your good self keep me entertained when you put people straight about our great airline!!! I'm flying
92 ConcordeBoy: Continental currently flys the polar route with a specially configured 777 Capt078, you constantly say this; then also constantly duck the question of
93 Leezyjet: How about this as an addition to our fleet - still ties in with the 4 Engines 4 Longhaul theme http://www.mikephotos.net/dea/photos/vsil62.jpg (sorry
94 Airchabum: Intheknow Yes I'd love to see the 777 flying for VS. Maybe it would fit in well doing the LGW flights? Mind you, it's such a tight programme that we p
95 Leezyjet: One of the VS engineers retired not so long ago and as a leaving present he was presented with a painting of a VS 777, as the 777 was has most favorit
96 CX747: I don't want to sound unintelligible but how was the 777 his favorite aircraft to work on if he worked for Virgin? Do other carriers use them for main
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), most of these have now been solved. As for passenger complaints, I believe most of those are due to the J2000 seat which will be replaced by the Suite.
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