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Aerospace Lobby Wants U.S. To Push Boeing 7E7  
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7163 times:

"If the president of the United States or the Democratic candidate would say, 'I'm going to put the resources of the United States behind this airplane,' it would mean a lot,"

IMO a further sign the governement is winning back over the hailed free market ideology in the US. And its fully supported by the people.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2001574432_boeingjapan21.html

interesting article

155 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMITaero From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 497 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 7037 times:

That is interesting, I didn't know the US and EU had that kind of agreement.

btw, there's an html tag in the middle of the link that's breaking it.


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 6989 times:

Japanese aerospace manufacturers may soon ask the Japanese government to cover a large portion of their research and development costs as suppliers on Boeing's proposed 7E7.

But a more radical proposition will soon emerge in Washington, D.C., where the aerospace industry's chief lobbyist wants the U.S. government to dub the 7E7 "America's Airplane" and align its research and development spending to help Boeing speed the 210-seat airplane to market.

John Douglass, chief executive of the Aerospace Industries Association (AIA), would like the Department of Transportation, the Federal Aviation Administration and the National Aeronautics and Space Administration to publicly commit to assist development of Boeing's next-generation jetliner.

"All of us should line up behind Boeing in getting this plane to market," Douglass said.

Douglass wants no new money for Boeing, but his proposal is bound to intensify the long-running debate over government supports for Boeing and its European rival, Airbus.

News reports in London and Tokyo in recent days said Mitsubishi Heavy Industries, Kawasaki Heavy Industries and Fuji Heavy Industries will ask the Japanese government to give the 7E7 priority status so they can tap state research subsidies and low-interest loans.

Funding requests for Japan's 2004 fiscal budget must be submitted to Japan's Finance Ministry by the end of August.

Boeing said it was not aware of the Japanese manufacturers' plans.

Boeing has also named Alenia Aeronautica of Italy and Vought Aircraft Industries of Dallas as 7E7 airframe suppliers.

"Our partners will fund their own work, and we're not going to dictate how they get their funding," said Yvonne Leach, a Boeing spokeswoman. "Government funding wouldn't be out of the question if that's a path they choose to go down."

Government support would be in keeping with Japan's history with Boeing. The "heavies" built 16 percent of the 767 in the early 1980s and 20 percent of the 777, and received research assistance from Japan's Ministry of International Trade and Industry on each project.

U.S. government support of the 7E7 would be anything but ordinary.

Douglass cautioned that his recommendation is just that. But Douglass is well respected in Washington, D.C., and he regularly shares his views with influential decision-makers in both parties.

Douglass will present his 7E7 advocacy plan to the AIA board of governors at an executive meeting in November. The board will then establish five to 10 policy priorities to push during 2004 elections.

"If the president of the United States or the Democratic candidate would say, 'I'm going to put the resources of the United States behind this airplane,' it would mean a lot," Douglass said.

It would certainly get attention in Toulouse, France, where Boeing's rival, Airbus, is headquartered.

Boeing and Airbus have feuded for years over government supports to lessen the cost of developing new airplanes.

A 1992 bilateral agreement between the U.S. and the European Union permits both manufacturers to receive government loans worth up to one-third of a plane's development costs.

Airbus has received such loans on every airplane it has produced. For the A380, the mammoth 555-seat jet due to enter service in 2006, Airbus has acknowledged it is getting $3.1 billion in government loans and subsidies toward the plane's estimated $10.7 billion development cost.

Boeing executives and U.S. government officials say privately Airbus is getting even more.

Boeing does not use such loans. Instead, it receives indirect support in the form of Department of Defense and NASA contracts with trickle-down benefits for its commercial-airplane program.

Airbus contends such contracts are far more beneficial to Boeing than any government loans it receives.

Douglass believes the U.S. needs to change tactics. Airbus has been one of the European Union's great success stories, he said, so European governments will not do anything to weaken Airbus, such as reducing subsidies.

Douglass does not want new government funding for the 7E7. Rather, he wants NASA, the FAA and other agencies to coordinate with Boeing to help the 7E7 succeed.

"Let's do what America does best," Douglass said. "Let's support our own program."

Boeing did not return a call seeking comment on Douglass's proposal


User currently offlineMD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 6912 times:

"Douglass does not want new government funding for the 7E7. Rather, he wants NASA, the FAA and other agencies to coordinate with Boeing to help the 7E7 succeed. "

I just wonder what "help" the FAA could offer in order to help the 7E7 program to succeed...... Maybe "adjust" the requirements?

""Our partners will fund their own work, and we're not going to dictate how they get their funding," said Yvonne Leach, a Boeing spokeswoman. "Government funding wouldn't be out of the question if that's a path they choose to go down.""

Here in Switzerland we say "If two people do the same, it's never the same". I guess this seems to be a classical double standard. If Airbus suppliers ask for low interest loans it's unfair competition, but id Boeing suppliers do it, it's "a path they choose to go down".

Makes one think a bit......

Cheers, Thomas


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6884 times:

Whats happening here is that the United States or certain members of the aviatoin community are calling for a better support system for Boeing. I am an American and I do believe in a free market without government interdiction BUT when the playing field is being tilted as far as it is for Airbus, one needs to rethink the approach.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6871 times:

Given the Rasputin-like nature of Airbus, what Douglass is saying makes some sense. No matter how economically unsuccessful an airplane Airbus ever built, it was never in any danger of having to leave the business like Lockheed or MD.

If Boeing messes up the 7E7, then it is likely 'game over' for large transport airplane manufacturing in the United States and the EU will have successfully bought the entire industry and the jobs that go along with it. That is something policy makers in this country should take note of.



User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6859 times:

That is why in my opinion, this "proposal" should go through. If we look at the major aircraft manufacturers today 1. Boeing 2. Airbus 3. Canadair 4. Embraer 3 out of 4 receive major government subsidies. I'm sure that the arguement regarding Boeing's military sales etc will be brought up, but as stated in the article, that has little to no affect on commercial aircraft sales. Also, Boeing is providing a service for the money the Defense Department pays it. Airbus does not.


"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineOsteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6834 times:

N79969

No matter how economically unsuccessful an airplane Airbus ever built, it was never in any danger of having to leave the business like Lockheed or MD.

Do you really believe that!

Do you think the European governments would support Airbus if it wouldn’t sell any airplanes? N79969 I believe you are just starting another of your anti Airbus campaigns.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6808 times:

Osteogenesis,

I know it. I think what Europe has done and what the US has tolerated is simply unacceptable. Do you actually believe the A300/310 were actually commercially viable projects with normal rates of return in standard time horizons? No way. The EU (France in particular) was not happy about the American 'monopoly' (the fact that several US firms competed was an inconvenient fact) and Euro politicians blathered on about 'strategic' industries and so on. Airbus is a jobs transfer program from a government perspective. Transfer jobs from Palmdale, Long Beach, Renton, and Everett to Tolouse and Hamburg.

330/340 is an unknown as books were not really kept back then. The 320 is the only series produced that I believe is profitable. Yet the money keeps rolling from the EU.

Further the fact that the EU has issued a r&d loan for the 380 that must be repaid only if the A380 is profitable is utterly ridiculous. Guess which Airbus program will not show a profit for a while? I think that "while" will be the period of the loan repayment horizon plus a day.

The A380 repayable loan demonstrates Europe's continued willingness to not only ensure Airbus survival but to ensure that it dominates at any cost. It just made a $3 billion bet.

[Edited 2003-08-21 16:27:49]

User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6799 times:

its no news that boeing programs received subsidies via hidden paths, and the article makes clear that there were direct subsidies for the latest programs (767, 777).

allowing japan to pump state money into the triple seven program is a very smart move in political terms. it:

* allows to keep the own hands clean and to continue to blame competitors

* saves US money (which is badly needed those days of record federal deficits)

* makes political pressure to buy american (as, i.a., in the case of el al) unnecessary, as japan itself will put pressure on national carriers to buy heavy-boeings

in sum, it pays off. financially, psychologically.






User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6757 times:

I would agree that Japanese tax money subsidizing the work of Ishikawajima-Harima, Kawasaki, and Fuji for Boeing subcontracts are backdoor subsidies that distort the market. Airbus has a legitimate point here.

User currently offlineRacko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4856 posts, RR: 20
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6756 times:

CX747, didn't you read the article? The 767 was 16% subsidie-financed, 20% of the 777 were. That is by the Japanese heavy industry. Also Japanese are put under pressure to buy Boeing planes. Put please, stay in your dream-world of the lonesome hero Boeing fighting on his own against the bad-boy Airbus, supported by the whole of Europe.

Military sales: It's so easy. Say, a car costs 30.000€. Now the local government comes to the car dealer and says "We take 100 cars for 60.000€ each." Is that just a usual deal (who of us doesn't pay twice the catalog price for anything he buys ?!), or is that a government subsidie for the local car dealer?


User currently offlineOsteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6754 times:

Do you think the European governments would support Airbus if it wouldn’t sell any airplanes?

N79969 answer: I know it.

 Nuts

You are a real fanatic. Do you know that?


[Edited 2003-08-21 16:45:00]

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 6745 times:

Fortunately its illegal for the FAA to participate... this is the same reason why Emirates can't fly to the US. We have an independent oversight committee here.

If you want to get back to the days of the A300, then both the US and Europe were equally guilty. The government directly bailed out the L-1011... and more often than not provided Boeing with free research by way of NASA.

Don't forget that the US also orders around helpless countries to order Boeing.

Comparing past wrongs is pointless. More modern offenses are probably the way to go to compare the business models of the two Unions.

There's also more documentation now, so whatever happens or is happening will be easier to follow.

N


User currently offlineCX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6727 times:

How did Boeing receive direct government subsidies on the 767/777 program? Boeing does military work for the Defense Department and Nasa. It is not "gifted" this money as Airbus is. It has to produce a good or service in order to receive its payment. 2 totally different programs. Think of it this way.

Boeing: Has to mow the lawn in order to receive $20 from its parents.

Airbus: Is given $60 for doing nothing more than sitting in his room.



"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
User currently offlineOsteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6698 times:

CX747,

gift <> loan  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

gift is not a loan



[Edited 2003-08-21 17:11:17]

User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6682 times:

Loans that probably will not be paid back are gifts.

User currently offlineOsteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6671 times:

N79969,

Loans that probably will not be paid back are gifts.

Not until you can eliminate the word “probably” with some facts.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

You don’t have a case my friend.


User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6663 times:

in order to persuade boeing to build the 7e7 plant in their states, US federal states are offering to susidise the 7e7 with up to 3.2 billion US dollars (state of washington). perhaps boeing will agree to the offer.


http://www.stateline.org/story.do?storyId=316846


"but hey, they are creating workplaces! thats not subsidies, that business"

signed CX747


User currently offlineOsteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6643 times:

Subsidies = gifts

loans <> gifts

Its really simple!


User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6642 times:

The Unbearable thought Boeing could be in problems for reasons other then European subsidies ...

CX747, N79669, pls read the following slowly & repeat it for yourself :

- The 767, 747, 757 are not hot selling, because they are probably not good enough anymore ..

- Boeing wasn't understanding the market when they proposed SC and told the world there is no market for a 500+ aircraft

- The governement support Boeing received for developing & building aerospace products in the last 40 yrs can and will never be matched by Airbus. The amount is simply MindBoggling ...

- What is proposed now is basicly state support protecting the strategic assett Boeing.

Blaming Airbus might by comforting, but not the problem for Boeing.

A vs B ?
No, I believe in 737/8, 777 and 7e7 medium range variant....


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6632 times:

Hey Rabenschlag,

Do you realize that BMW and Daimler Chrysler also received tax breaks/holidays to build factories in South Carolina and Alabama? Toyota received them from Kentucky?

Osteogenesis,

You are kidding yourself if you actually think there is a real likelihood that Airbus will pay back A380 loans. They sold quite a few at launch prices. It will take them a long time to reach break-even. Airbus has all the incentive and all of the opportunity in the world to defer profits long enough to avoid paying a $ 3 billion loan. That is a gift. A giveaway.

Keesje,

The Boeing are not selling well because:

1. Slow economy
2. Saturation of the niches- everyone that needs 757s has them.
3. Aggressive pricing by Airbus (e.g. EasyJet)


Hope you guys like Thai prawns, you should be able to get them cheap real soon.


[Edited 2003-08-21 17:29:55]

User currently offlineOsteogenesis From Germany, joined May 2003, 647 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6616 times:

N79969,

Do you realize that BMW and Daimler Chrysler also received tax breaks/holidays to build factories in South Carolina and Alabama? Toyota received them from Kentucky?

Do you know all Airbus Aircraft have many parts build in the US?

You are kidding yourself if you actually think there is a real likelihood that Airbus will pay back A380 loans.

You are kidding yourself if you actually think there is a real likelihood that Airbus will pay back A380 loans. They sold quite a few at launch prices. It will take them a long time to reach break-even. Airbus has all the incentive and all of the opportunity in the world to defer profits long enough to avoid paying a $ 3 billion loan. That is a gift. A giveaway.

Proof?


User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6591 times:

@N79969:

"Do you realize that BMW and Daimler Chrysler also received tax breaks/holidays to build factories in South Carolina and Alabama? Toyota received them from Kentucky?"

yes, i do. and this translates to:
some federal states of america are subsidising national and international companies. and in the case of boeing, this is about to happen in a very drastic way.

interestingly enough, using tax-payers money to subsidize jobs that would not be created without such subsidies is a quite "socialistic" take on economy.



@N79969:

"You are kidding yourself if you actually think there is a real likelihood that Airbus will pay back A380 loans. They sold quite a few at launch prices. It will take them a long time to reach break-even. Airbus has all the incentive and all of the opportunity in the world to defer profits long enough to avoid paying a $ 3 billion loan. That is a gift. A giveaway."

who is kidding. we just learned that washington is offering 3.2 billion dollars for free, not as a loan, to subsidise boeing for building the 7e7 in washington. and you are blaming the EU to give a repayable loan of 3.0 billion us $ to AI. i agree that AI will do anything to prevent the repayment. but actually they are repaying loans right now. so there is a chance that the money will flow back.

is there a double standard or not?



sometimes, things arent what they appear to be at first glance. this is true for almost everything. perhaps this also applies to US politics and economy. think about it. although "e pluribus unum" is a heartly accepted motto, maybe the US arent that much unique and morally superior on some dimensions.





[Edited 2003-08-21 17:41:31]

User currently offlineWingman From Seychelles, joined May 1999, 2218 posts, RR: 5
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 6569 times:

Sweet Jesus, someone in government is finally realizing how the EU has screwed Boeing to the wall with this ongoing 30 year breast feeding of Airbus. Now it's time to turn the tables. The one thing the Airbus fans never seem able to respond to is precisely where the indirect subsidies end up in Boeing Commercial aircraft. Is it Fly By Wire...oh right, that benefited Airbus. Where exactly do you see government subsidies on the commercial side of the business??? Nowhere!!! This is nothing more than a pathetic attempt by Airbus to deflect attention away form the fact that even with 50%+ marketshare it has neither the balls nor the business acumen to succeed on its own merits. And that's OK, as long as Boeing gets to play on an even field. Second step of course, will be to completely absolve Boeing of all taxation until 2034. Then we'll see what the market truly looks like.

Airbus, great planes built by grown children who still can't feed themselves.


25 Post contains links and images Keesje : The one thing the Airbus fans never seem able to respond to is precisely where the indirect subsidies end up in Boeing Commercial aircraft. http://www
26 N79969 : Rabenschlag, Let's put it this way. If it were not for government giveaways from the EU, the A300 would have been Airbus first and last airplane. No d
27 Post contains images Manni : N79969, Writes once again... Aggresive pricing by Airbus (e.g. Airbus). I do not have acces to these contracts, but if you say so, may I remind you th
28 N79969 : According to most Euro-whining, O'Leary is a braggart and a liar. But now you guys believe him?
29 Rabenschlag : N79969: i squarely blame the USA that despite more than 70 years of existence, Boeing gets something like a 3.2 billion gift, which is a gift is a gif
30 Cwapilot : As the old saying goes: If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
31 IslandHopper : As mommy always told me: Two wrongs don't make a right! Your right though, free market economy is dying, but that doesn't make it right. Governments d
32 Joni : An independent body had also analyzed the 767 tanker deal and concluded that Boeing was overcharging anout USD 2bn over the 15% profit margin they we
33 N79969 : Rabenschlag, Your explanation is a whitewash. To compare the gift of immortality conferred unto Airbus by the EU to the application of knowledge learn
34 MidnightMike : It would be great if this 7E7 would be built in Long Beach California, I know the chances are slim to none, but what the hell!
35 Wingman : Keesje, so you mean that Boeing commercial aircraft converted to military purposes is a subsidy for the commercial side of the business? Doesn't make
36 Dynkrisolo : Manni: This is not the first time you quoted Ryanair's 738 order as an example of aggressive pricing by Boeing. FWIW, the press had quoted 40% discoun
37 N79969 : Besides the large discount, Airbus will provide the following to Easyjet: Pilot training Reimbursement for the costs of operating a mixed fleet (costs
38 Post contains images Manni : Dynkrisolo, It doesn't matter how many customers were given discounts. Boeings is just like Airbus trying to get orders by discounting their aircraft
39 Scorpio : But I am not aware of too many more on Boeing's side. Let me help you: Exclusivity contracts for AA, DL and CO. Hundreds and hundreds of planes. There
40 L.1011 : OMG! Boeing gave a BIG discount on 1 order! Uh oh Europe, the sky is falling! Uh oh, Boeing converted their commercial planes into military airplanes
41 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Manni: It's not the same. It's not uncommon for any businesses to offer higher-than-normal discounts to strategical customers. The SK order was crucia
42 N79969 : Scorpio, I believe those exclusivity contracts were torn up after the EU complained. In the case of CO, there is no chance that they will buy Airbus s
43 B747FAN : Greetings, Note: The A380 is still 2 - 2.5 yrs from being launched. The success of that airplane is yet to be determined. And for those of you saying
44 Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: Obviously, you haven't heard of volume discount. Why don't you ask what kind of discounts ILFC is getting from Airbus? I can assure you they
45 Post contains images MITaero : I kinda agree with Sabena 690.. if you don't know what's really going on, you really don't have the right to argue so fervently. btw - not picking any
46 Post contains images Manni : Good point Sabena690. Anyway, why is it that some of the US citizens on this forum are whinning about Airbus recieving so called subsidies from the EU
47 Post contains images Scorpio : See, when you point out the discounts given by Boeing, the anti-Airbus crowd gets all defensive, yet they are surprised that we do the same after the
48 DoorsToManual : if you don't know what's really going on, you really don't have the right to argue so fervently LOL, the appropriate term for what you are doing here
49 N79969 : Not being 'insiders' in the US government has never stopped or slowed down Sabena 690 etc others from opining on the "real reasons" behind U.S. foreig
50 Scorpio : IB is just as loyal an Airbus customer as LH is. They're close to being an all-Airbus operator! And a big one at it. So they DO deserve the deals they
51 N79969 : Scorpio, Residual price guarantees are not normal parts of a deal. No one is as good an Airbus customer as Lufthansa. Iberia has nearly no consumer ri
52 Wingman : Any Boeing supporters out there should be happy this day has come. EADS and the EU are about to get a taste of their own medicine and if they want to
53 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: See, when you point out the discounts given by Boeing, the anti-Airbus crowd gets all defensive, yet they are surprised that we do the same a
54 Manni : N79969, 'EU money is being spent in a way that reduces economic well being of US citizensin forms of lost jobs and loss of shareholders value. That's
55 Sabena 690 : Wingman, this kind of agressive behaviour will get you nowhere. Base you on facts, not on emotions. All it took was for Airbus to go past market parit
56 Scorpio : Hmmm... Replace Airbus with Boeing and Boeing with Airbus in your sentence, and it sounds closer to the reality, at least in this thread. If I'm not m
57 N79969 : For the record, I am not happy to see the day where the US government is going to draw its guns to ensure that Europe does not entirely rob the United
58 Post contains images Manni : Dynkrisolo, the FR argument was a counter towards N79969 Easyjet example (see reply 21) Are you comparing Boeing as a start up carrier and Airbus with
59 Cwapilot : Manni said: "That's indeed a problem for the US but not for the EU. I dont see why the EU should handle in favor of US interests, I'm not aware of thi
60 Cwapilot : Sabena 690 said:"May I ask you who you are to claim this? Once again: or you are an insider AND know about what you are talking, or you say nothing."
61 Post contains images MITaero : Does anyone think Boeing is more entitled to government "help" due to their hand in national defense, launch vehicles, etc? Just bringing it up, I'm n
62 Dynkrisolo : Manni, Scorpio: I'm not wrong. N77769 pointed out the Easyjet discount as an example, and Manni got defensive. I know a lot more higher than normal di
63 B2707SST : Speaking of game theory, it seems like subsidizing this (or any other industry) is a Nash equilibrium. For you non-economists out there: if no one sub
64 Scorpio : Just one thing: Has it ever occured to any of you that: a) Not a single one of all the examples you all love to quote has ever been proven, they are a
65 Areopagus : We've already pissed our automotive and electronics industries away to the Asians, the Japanese in particular...there is no way we should concede the
66 Charleslp : Another reason why Airbus seems to be doing so well is becuase of the one thing that gets everyone angry with each other: Politics! As a matter of fac
67 Donder10 : 'The EU whined to PM Koizumi after ANA purchased 737NG's' Madeleine Albright comes to mind, threathening to withdraw military support to Israel if ELA
68 AvObserver : A bit off the main topic of debate here but Gigneil, please explain your statement: "Don't forget that the US also orders around helpless countries to
69 Charleslp : 'The EU whined to PM Koizumi after ANA purchased 737NG's' Madeleine Albright comes to mind, threathening to withdraw military support to Israel if EL
70 AirbusDriver : When the US make Israel buy 777 when they really want A330, When the US make noise restriction to doom the Condorde-yeah the politician really care o
71 Charleslp : It is well known that Airbus produces its aircraft more efficiently than Boeing does (I know you'll just deny it, but this is a FACT, you can look it
72 Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: Just because you are unable to see the numbers doesn't mean it's not true or not well known. All contracts are proprietary in nature. Even if
73 Wingman : So here's the one question I'd put to all you Airbus lovers out there. Please explain to me why Airbus needs state funding when it has 50%+ marketshar
74 Post contains images Scorpio : Oh, I see. So Boeing makes aircraft nobody wants, yet whoever buys them is doing it because of politcal purposes or they are too ignorant to know abou
75 Charleslp : Allow me to respond with a whopping HUH?!?!? What the hell does any of that tripe have to do with Airbus having a more efficient production process??
76 Areopagus : When the US make noise restriction to doom the Condorde-yeah the politician really care of the noise level over the bronx-, I suppose you also think t
77 N79969 : Airbus Driver and Donder 10, U.S. Government pressure on El Al and China Airlines to buy American is absolutely justified. When the state-owned carrie
78 Post contains links Scorpio : N79969, When Boeing discounts, it is not on the scale, scope, or dimension on which Airbus can apparently act Proof? No? Then please don't act as if i
79 Post contains images AvObserver : Leaticia, no disrespect intended, particularly since you're a pilot but... "When the US make Israel buy 777 when they really want A330" I reiterate, t
80 Donder10 : Double standards?Without US backing,Taiwan would be overtaken by China and the same could be said about Israel.Both countries survive thanks to the U.
81 Charleslp : What? You don't believe they build their planes more efficiently? Maybe this will change your mind: http://fox.rollins.edu/~tlairson/intbus/airbus1.h
82 L.1011 : < begin whining of airbus supporters > HEYYYYY! EVIL BUSH AND ASHCROFT AND BOEING AND ALL THOSE OTHER BIG CORPORATIONS TOOK THAT WEBSITE DOWN! POOR AI
83 Post contains links N79969 : Scorpio, "Proof? No? Then please don't act as if it is a proven fact." The proof is right in front of us all. Although it is normally hard to prove a
84 L.1011 : The EU is unbelievable. They obviously believe that they are some white knight who is saving the aviation industry from the oppression of Boeing, GE,
85 Dynkrisolo : Even if I know the exact numbers, by the nature of those contracts, I can't tell you what they are. Or else, the people who I got those information f
86 Post contains images B2707SST : N79969: Here is my reasoning on the Nash equilibrium: Let's say we start out with a free market - not realistic in the case of Airbus, but it makes th
87 MD-11 forever : Guys, this is really an amazing discussion you have here.... Dynkrissolo, let's assume your informations are correct. To put them into a relation, you
88 Scorpio : < begin whining of airbus supporters > HEYYYYY! EVIL BUSH AND ASHCROFT AND BOEING AND ALL THOSE OTHER BIG CORPORATIONS TOOK THAT WEBSITE DOWN! POOR AI
89 Dynkrisolo : MD-11 forever and Scorpio: I don't know exactly how much it costs to produce a plane at Boeing or at Airbus. Even most of the people who work for Boei
90 N79969 : B2707SST, Got it. I think. The way I read this is that it is now the governments of the U.S. and EU that are now players as opposed to the manufacture
91 Scorpio : So, the claim that Airbus is more efficient is baseless. You haven't read the article, have you? When you give all these claims about the price cuts,
92 Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: The article you provided was written in 1999. It was well known that Boeing failed miserably in ramping up the 737 production and failed to a
93 N79969 : To bring Wingman's question back to the fore: "Please explain to me why Airbus needs state funding when it has 50%+ marketshare? "
94 OO-AOG : Free market has never existed in aviation, never. Political interests are too strong on both sides of the Ocean to allow a free market. US and Europe
95 Wingman : So the bset answer you Airbus guys can come up with is "if Boeing has not enough with their military subsidies well find another solution"??? The lack
96 Post contains images OO-AOG : Wingman So the bset answer you Airbus guys can come up with is "if Boeing has not enough with their military subsidies well find another solution"???
97 Post contains links N79969 : " Our system in Europe is more competitive than yours, well we are getting more shares of the market." Nonsense. The only reason that airplanes are bu
98 Dynkrisolo : OO-AOG: dry your tears and get yourselves a proper family of products and change your system in order to be competitive. If Boeing could have easy acc
99 L.1011 : N79969, Why do we waste our time? They'll never admit that Airbus has grown fat off the EU. Theyll just keep posting their anti-US BS that we're the w
100 Sabena 690 : L1011, if you would like to set up an airline, what would you choose: x B767 or A330 x B747 or A346 x B757 or A321 My impression is that several Boein
101 L.1011 : Sabena 690, you may recall a post a while back where even Airbus supporters admitted that the 757 is superior, so that is BS (as much as you hate me u
102 Greg : Actually, there were some good points made on this thread. I think we need to agree on the following: 1. All things considered, they both make excelle
103 Post contains images AvObserver : Ahh, Keesje, you must really be happy with yourself this time-look what a monster you've created! Yes, the wonderful world of A vs. B! Gotta love it!
104 Gigneil : When one has a consistent pattern of heavy discountings, then people have to raise concern of one's business practice. No you don't, and that's an alm
105 Sabena 690 : you may recall a post a while back where even Airbus supporters admitted that the 757 is superior When that Airbus supporter was as accurate as you, I
106 Sabena 690 : Greg and Gigneil: good points. B747FAN: your post is an example of the arrogant attitude that many of us dislike so much these days. /Frederic
107 Dynkrisolo : Gigneil: No you don't, and that's an almost nonsense statement in terms of international business. It's not. Have you heard of dumping? It depends on
108 Sabena 690 : Dynkrisolo: I wonder what the margin of Boeing will be about the B738's that went to Ryanair. In a BBC documentary, analysts talked about a possible d
109 Sabena 690 : The only reason that airplanes are built in Europe is that EU has dumped so much cash into Airbus to overcome a glaring comparative disadvantage in ae
110 L.1011 : Sabena 690, OF COURSE Boeing gets government money. They both do, so do Bombardier and EMBRAER. The differece is that the three on this side of the po
111 Sabena 690 : But once again you did not reply to any of my statements. And once again you are claiming that Airbus gets handouts. Back it up. Can't you read? You c
112 Dynkrisolo : Sabena 690: Obviously, you have not read my other replies. In your local supermarkets or department stores, they often have promotions with incredible
113 DoorsToManual : Yet, what I get most out of this discussion is the inferiority complex felt by the Europeans I don't understand how some people can make such claims,
114 N79969 : Sabena 690, Ah yes, I vividly recall that MD-11Forever brought up irrelevant engine terminology in a feeble attempt to refute the simple notion that e
115 Sabena 690 : Dynkrisolo: besides the last paragraph of your post, I fully agree. And personally, I see no problem. This is what is called: concurrence. Like you sa
116 Sabena 690 : Go back and read for yourself. A bit difficult since your insult, as well as his reply on that insult, is deleted (together with the viable informatio
117 L.1011 : Sabena 690- Here are my statistics. A321-200 number is first, then 757-200 All are using max available engines,etc. Maximum Cruising Speed- 488 knots
118 Greg : How stupid NOT to think that Airbus is after market share. Of course they are.....and it's working famously for them (easily a percentage point and a
119 Sabena 690 : Um L1011: nice try, but do you think that the B752 is superior due to the fact he flights 5 knots faster? Do you think that only this is necessary for
120 L.1011 : Obviously, in your blind hatred for Boeing you selectively read my post. You refuse to admit the 757 is cheaper to operate then the "super-efficient"
121 Post contains images Sabena 690 : in your blind hatred for Boeing LOL, I'm actually more a Boeing fan, but nevertheless... Once again: because the B752 has a slightly lower fuel burn t
122 Post contains images RIX : 1. Nothing wrong was (and is) for EU to subsidize their aircraft (or whatever else) production - it's their money, they should decide what to do with
123 L.1011 : Well then Sabena 690, why do you promote Airbus so much and beat up on Boeing.
124 Sabena 690 : I do not promote Airbus and do not beat up Boeing, what I want is common sense. It's not because I am more a Boeing man, that I can stand half truths,
125 Gigneil : The B752 is superior to the A321 and 737-900 in almost every way... except that the A321 and 739 are more efficient craft. It's not. Have you heard of
126 Dynkrisolo : Sabena 690: where do you get the 40% from? From which source? When the LX 343 order was announced, LX's CEO, Andre Dose, told reporters that the airli
127 Gigneil : I don't think he was trying to say that. Beyond that, as I mentioned in reply 126, there is absolutely no way under US or EU law that Airbus running o
128 MD-11 forever : "Ah yes, I vividly recall that MD-11Forever brought up irrelevant engine terminology in a feeble attempt to refute the simple notion that engine mx co
129 N79969 : Note to mods: See reply 110...115 is plainly self-defense. MD-11Forever, No, I'm just defending myself. Read 110's accusation. I repeat that a four en
130 OO-AOG : If Boeing could have easy access to capital, I'm sure Boeing would. How did Airbus get to where they are today? The availiability of cheap capital is
131 Post contains images L1011Fan : Wow... it's threads like this that prevent me from getting any real work done during the day I like planes from both companies but I generally back Bo
132 MD-11 forever : Ok, N79969 Just one last comment... Don't take it personal, but do you happen to know how much an engine overhaul costs for the GE90 vs the Trent 500?
133 N79969 : MD-11Forever, Unlike the post that provoked my own outburst, you have provided explanation of your reasoning. Had you done that in the first place, I
134 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Md-11 forever: Larger engines mean higher pressure ratios in the compressor (more stages needed) I got the following information from GE's and R-R's w
135 Post contains images Matt777 : "Boeing has also named Alenia Aeronautica of Italy and Vought Aircraft Industries of Dallas as 7E7 airframe suppliers" Now that's coool, way to go Ale
136 Donder10 : 757 over the A321: This is no brainer The reason the 321 is selling and the 757 isn't is because of commanality.Also,why get the 757 over the 321 or 7
137 Rickb : Wow, I have been away for 8 months from this site and the same topics are still going !!! N79969 - respect for keeping the dream alive !! That and mak
138 N79969 : Dynkrisolo, In your opinion what is the effect of deals such as Swiss, Thai, and Iberia on Airbus long-term pricing strategy? Now that some of the det
139 Post contains images MD-11 forever : @N79969 "As Airbus and Boeing are competing closesly with the 777NG and A345/346, RR and GE are also competing in the background. Both companies have
140 N79969 : MD-11Forever, I would think that the airlines would be smart enough to look beyond acquisition price and consider the costs over the life of the engin
141 OO-AOG : Dynkrisolo Why don't you do some research and find out what kind of return Airbus has been for the four European governments? You could be very surpri
142 MD-11 forever : @N79969 "I would think that the airlines would be smart enough to look beyond acquisition price and consider the costs over the life of the engine." W
143 Dynkrisolo : N79969: In your opinion what is the effect of deals such as Swiss, Thai, and Iberia on Airbus long-term pricing strategy? Now that some of the details
144 N79969 : MD-11Forever, I think you grossly underestimate the finance analysis staffs of airlines. Perhaps your company does get screwed by OEM but that is not
145 Post contains images MD-11 forever : @N79969 " I know first hand that U.S. carriers have legions of MBA-type people who make quantitative estimates of the long-term costs when assessing a
146 Dynkrisolo : MD-11 forever: Your argument still works against you. One diversion of a twin could possibly cost more than one diversion of a quad as in your example
147 Post contains images Delta-flyer : Just a couple of observations to add to the ongoing discussion on the economics of aircraft ..... I can assure you that the life cycle cost of an airc
148 N79969 : MD-11Forever, No those guys really won't be tricked twice by PW, GE, or RR if those companies attempt to gouge them on spares or service. Next time th
149 MD-11 forever : "...the price-gouger will likely be ignored" How can you do that, if there is an exclusivvity deal? "Your argument still works against you. One divers
150 N79969 : MD-11Forever, You omitted the very-important first half of my sentence. That should answer the question. Besides what carrier has single sourced all o
151 MD-11 forever : You misunderstood N79969, I meant the exclusive deals on airframes (737NG, A340, 777NG) only available with one engine type. Ok? Yes, the scam goes bo
152 Post contains links and images Keesje : A330 has a very efficient wing for long haul. 767 has an older wing, better suited for medium/short haul operation. Aspect ratio & span are important.
153 Post contains images Shenzhen : "Douglass wants no new money for Boeing, but his proposal is bound to intensify the long-running debate over government supports for Boeing and its Eu
154 N79969 : MD-11Forever, Ok, I see what you meant. Nonetheless, the competitive pressure remains as a factor in the long term. Let's say for the sake of argument
155 Dynkrisolo : MD-11 forever: When did I say twins are much cheaper to operate? I said cheaper but I didn't say much cheaper. If twins are not cheaper to operate, th
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