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AA Flight 587 On TLC Tonight (8/21)  
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3783 posts, RR: 34
Posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 5935 times:

Tonight on the Learning Channel:

August 21, 2003
On Air
Aug 21 2003 10:00 PM (ET)
Aug 22 2003 01:00 AM (ET)

Flight 587: Anatomy of a Disaster

For a few nervous hours on November 11, 2001 it looked as if America's enemies were attacking New York again. American Airlines Flight 587 crashed into the residential neighborhood of Belle Harbor. Watch as investigators uncover the mysterious crash.

LoneStarMike

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineNorthwesta319 From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 83 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5781 times:

Thanks for posting that- I know I will be watching that.

User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5772 times:

Isn't that the aircraft where the tail fell off, due to a structural defect Airbus knew of already?

... I might catch it. Thanks for the heads-up.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineRedngold From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 45
Reply 3, posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5737 times:

Actually, I think it was determined that the tail snapped off due to use of the rudder in mid-flight. This puts extraordinary stress on the tail, beyond normal design limits.

redngold



Up, up and away!
User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2854 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5700 times:

I always wondered why with FBW that rudder deflection in flight was not limited to deflections that would not compromise the aircraft.

User currently offlineBobs89irocz From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5661 times:

I guess im gonna have to leave the motocycle in the garage tonight and watch this show. Thanks for the insite and posting the times.

GOOSE, yes this is the same accident that your thinking of

I herd it was a defect from AIRBUS but when the accident happend and it was time to put blame on someone AIRBUS denied any flaws and said it was the lack of experience from the AA pilots or something? I guess you can tell the press anything and the public will believe it. makes u wonder what the truth really is about everything that is reported???


User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5626 times:

I recall hearing of an incident a few years before Flt 587, where another A300 experienced a downdraft effect, and the flight crew pushed hard on the controls in order to regain control of the aircraft..... eventually they did, but upon landing found that the tail had suffered critical stress fractures and only by luck had it not fallen off in flight.

Airbus failed to report this problem to the authorities, and failed to issue a warning to future pilots or go about constructing a remedy to strengthen the tail structure.

I'll try and find the appropriate link somewhere..... it wasn't too long ago that I read about it.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineChicago757 From United States of America, joined May 2003, 381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 8 months 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 5558 times:

thanks! seems like i've got some entertainment for tonight.


Go White Sox!!!!
User currently offlineBigphilnyc From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 4076 posts, RR: 54
Reply 8, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

That was a pretty cool show.

In the beginning you see kids playing roller rockey at a rink in Rockaway. That is where I used to play a few years ago. I have some good sports memories there.

Some nice footage and an entertaining show.



Phil Derner Jr.
User currently offlineFlairport From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5344 times:

I've got to get up at 6:30 ET to do a garage sale! so, is it worth recording, anyone who watched it. I'll either record it or the Wold News Now Polka. tough choice, I record the polka weekly!

User currently offlineFlyingbronco05 From United States of America, joined May 2002, 3840 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5336 times:

I watched it with my dad and he was telling me all this stuff about rudder reversals and stress loads/limits and I was so lost.

But I never really knew what happens in cases like this.

My dad says he is more careful now then he ever was flying through wake turbulence.

FB05

I now believe that Airbus Aircraft: STINK! and are CHEAP!, and are made from FIBERS!.

There's a reason why they are called "scarebus"  Big grin



Never Trust Your Fuel Gauge
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5961 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5290 times:

HHHmmmm....oh I see! And Boeing didn't have rudder problems w/ the 737? The battle between AA and Airbus parallels US and Boeing. You Airbus haters need to STOP HATIN'


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineTekelberry From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1459 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5286 times:

Oh cmon people, although I tend to dislike Airbus, you can't say they make cheap planes. Airbus AND Boeing released safety recommendations to not use rudder reversals.

I do agree that Airbus could have done something sooner if they would have actually paid attention to the incident in Moscow. I guess they only like to improve the safety of their aircraft AFTER one crashes instead of BEFORE.


User currently offlineArtsyman From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 4745 posts, RR: 35
Reply 13, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5271 times:

I do agree that Airbus could have done something sooner if they would have actually paid attention to the incident in Moscow
***************

You have to admit that the pilot who did the recovery in the Moscow incident did well to recover that situation. That looked mental


User currently offlineJBirdAV8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4482 posts, RR: 22
Reply 14, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

Airbus cheap and attractive aircraft.

Kinda makes you think of hookers, doesn't it?  Big thumbs up



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineB752fanatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5267 times:

I dont hate Airbus, I just think Boing is superior.

I have flown most of my entire time in American Airlines A300's, and no problems at all.

Since my family is from Dominican Republic.

But I really think AA should take out of their fleet the A300's.

I just think they have to stop thinking about money, and think about SAFETY!.



"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5961 posts, RR: 17
Reply 16, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5265 times:

What airline was that Moscow incident again?


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineNiteRider30 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 150 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

Thanks for posting that, I'll definitely have to watch it. I'm pretty keen on the events that occured, as I was part of a group that did a mock trial over that crash in Aviation Law class.

User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2854 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5252 times:

I watched the program and learned a lot. I had always assumed that the output of the rudder pedals effectiveness was proportional to the speed of the aircraft. In otherwords at 150 kias 7in of rudder pedal might move the rudder say 15 degs maybe at 230 kias 7in of rudder pedal might move the rudder say 7 degs and say 300 kias 7in of rudder pedal might move the rudder 3 degs. Being from and industrial engr enviroment that would be a normal type control program. From the information that I got from the program it suggests that the rudder pedal movement was just limited the stroke of the rudder pedal and they mentioned only 1.250 inches. I would think that during an upset it would be a normal reaction to smash or push the rudder pedal to the full stroke.
It looks like to me that there should have been a little more engineering put into that rudder system.


User currently offlineAccidentally From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 642 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5187 times:
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A good friend of mine was a co-worker of Mr. Molin (727), and flew often off the job. He says he was a good pilot.

I'm recording it for him, since his hotel doesnt get TLC for some reason.

I beleive the entire situation was a combination of things. I dont feel Airbus' tail caused it, Sten's technique caused it, or AA's training caused it, but the whole mix.

I'll be seriously upset if one party winds up taking the entire blame.



Cory Crabtree - crab453 - Indianapolis - 2R2 - 1966 PA-32-260
User currently offlineTLHFLA From United States of America, joined May 2003, 589 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5148 times:

I would imagine that due to battle between American and Airbus that American probably will not add any additional Airbus models to their fleet. I wonder if the battle between USAir and Boeing over the Pittsburgh crash was a major factor in USAir's decision to go with Airbus for their fleet modernization.


Bill in ATL
User currently offlineB752fanatic From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 918 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5125 times:

AA will never buy Airbus Aircraft.

Not even if they sell them at half the price.

Since this accident, Airbus and AA have broken friendship and nice relations.



"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
User currently offlineGoboeing From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 2679 posts, RR: 14
Reply 22, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 5103 times:

I'm not sure about who's to blame here. But there's one thing this show mentioned that I couldn't agree more with, and that's human factors changing the result of an upset.

In a simulator, you can only feel so much. Even a full motion sim. I haven't been in one, but it certainly doesn't go upside down, or simulate 3Gs pulling out of a dive.

Any pilots, including commercial, would benefit in my opinion from a few hours of "Unusual Attitude Recovery." I have flown aerobatics including that myself with a CFI and not only did I learn a lot, but it's fun! There's nothing like yanking the stick back at 140kts and looking sideways to see the ground perpendicular to the wing and then kick the rudder to the side and reverse sides immediately. The more you practice these "unusual" attitudes, the more routine they become and the less prone to panicking you become as well.

I agree with firsthand experience that you are more likely to over-control the airplane while suddenly under 5Gs and heading for the ground. If you don't react within 2 seconds or so in the Cap-10, you'd be past Vne and you could, well, rip the tail or wings off.

Nick


User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2854 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5085 times:

I have read quite a few of the accident / incident report on the UK's website and I have to say they seem to be a little more down to earth and a little more explanatory than NTSB. I can say this when an Airbus is involved it seems that Airbus's explanation always seems to try to point toward pilot or operator error.
From watching the program it Airbus tries to put the blame elsewhere, most likely this is for legal reasons.
I get the impression that rather than trying to improve the safety of the aircraft and making the plane fit the normal reaction of the pilot, they are trying to imply that the pilot needs to be trained to fit the limitation of the airplane.


User currently offlineDc863 From Denmark, joined Jun 1999, 1558 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 8 months 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5073 times:

The Moscow incident was on an Interflug A310. I know I've seen amateur video footage taken showing the A310 in a near vertical dive before recovering. It was from a three part series on aircraft accidents that was shown on TV several years ago. However, I recall that the commentator stated that the aircraft in the footage was a Romanian A310.

25 Post contains images Flyingbronco05 : Airbus AND Boeing released safety recommendations to not use rudder reversals. Yeah but airbus did it to cover their butt.
26 JBLUA320 : Great show..... nice to see both sides of the argument...... tho it was chilling at the same time... JBLU
27 Flyingbronco05 : Anybody know why the captain never took over? The FO said he didn't need help but sometimes you just have to take over. I wonder if this could have be
28 AA777MIA : I did not know the Captain, but I had flown with the First Officer weeks prior.. He was a good guy, and a great pilot.. I would fly with him again tod
29 Accidentally : Bronco, I don't think he took over because Molin's actions were not known to be improper at that time.
30 Red Panda : "...And Boeing didn't have rudder problems w/ the 737? The battle between AA and Airbus parallels US and Boeing." A very good parellel by 727LOVER r p
31 Artsyman : The sad part is that the war between AA and Airbus has more to do with avoiding legal liability than finding a solution to the problem. With every cra
32 Bobs89irocz : FO or Captain, when your in the Airlines and flying a wide body the FO should/could handle the plane on his own. After watching the show im gonna say,
33 JMChladek : The Moscow incident as I recall was a pilot vs. flight control computer conflict on an A320 series aircraft. I am trying to recall this from memory of
34 CPH-R : Congratulations, B752fanatic. You post in reply #9 has just warranted my first ever use of the Suggest Deletion for A vs B comments. I have never seen
35 VC-10 : I always wondered why with FBW that rudder deflection in flight was not limited to deflections that would not compromise the aircraft. A300 Rudders ar
36 Backfire : The Moscow incident was on an Interflug A310. I know I've seen amateur video footage taken showing the A310 in a near vertical dive before recovering.
37 727LOVER : Actually, I think a lot of blame should go on the JFK tower. Why did they separate the A300 behind a 747-400 by only 2 minutes?
38 United_Fan : Wasn't A^A's A300 involved in some sort of a tail srtike during a storm before it was deliverd ?
39 BigPhilNYC : They are all like that. That is what the FAA regulates as the waiting time in between departing aircraft. I think. I've seen ATC at all airports send
40 Contrails : I think they did a good job in explaining what happened. I can only imagine what the crew and passengers went throught prior to impact. I have a few q
41 Delta777-XXX : I'm not really sure what to think about it all. The program was pretty scary. I would feel confident to fly on the A300... but probably not as much so
42 Capt.Fantastic : The amateur film footage that some of you are eluding to was a TAROM A310 at Paris Orly - This was not the Moscow incident referred to in the program.
43 Post contains images CcrlR : I saw it too and it was good. Especially when they showed AA and Airbus' demos. I didn't know it was on until beofre I went to sleep but I stayted up
44 VC-10 : the show didn't mention the connecting bolts and mounting brackets for the tail assembly. Were they cleared as contributing factors to the crash? The
45 Okie : Thanks for the info VC-10 I also noticed the AA simulator pilot was making very abrupt movements with the controls be it drama for TV or whatever comp
46 Laddb : I don't know what the rudder fin was made of, but in my experience, composites have higher stregth than aluminum. However, composites tend to be britt
47 Northwesta319 : Sorry if this is an ovbious question- but I thought A300's were old- is that right or wrong?
48 B752fanatic : CPH-R, No problem with me, if they deleted my message, It was my opinion, I think Airbus does not make the same quality as Boeing. And if it would had
49 Flyingbronco05 : Actually, I think a lot of blame should go on the JFK tower. Why did they separate the A300 behind a 747-400 by only 2 minutes? The captain or FO coul
50 VC-10 : And if it would had been a Boeing, I dont think it would had happened, for making a cheap tail, more than 250 people lost their lives. You are showing
51 Hockey55dude : I saw it last night and it was awesome.
52 777fan : My only comment was the interesting footage from what I believe was a toll both camera. They had to circle the aircraft, but I can only imagine what w
53 N6376M : Actually, I think a lot of blame should go on the JFK tower. Why did they separate the A300 behind a 747-400 by only 2 minutes? The A300 crew knew how
54 Post contains images 727LOVER : AA's A300 were built around 1988-1989. In human years, they are past menopause, put not yet eligible for social security!
55 Philhyde : I just watched the show (Tivo is wonderful) and I was impressed. It was obviously also very chilling, as most a/c accidents are. Even more chilling is
56 Post contains images BR715-A1-30 : My Dad can lick your dad!!!! OH YEAH, I CAN LICK YOU Right here!!!!!. Seriously guys. Accidents happen. That is where we learn. ADs are for problems.
57 Post contains images Scbriml : Why let a little thing like facts spoil a good row? The rudder was overstressed by repeated over-commanding of the rudder by flight crew. It failed as
58 Tekelberry : Both Boeing and Airbus issued warnings to airlines not to use this method of plane control. AFTER the accident. That may be easy for you to say. But t
59 Bobs89irocz : Im with Tekelberry, i know EVEN Boeing issued a warning about rudder reversales but thats just to save there ass to, just like SCAREBUS did AFTER they
60 Capt.Fantastic : All fairness to AIRBUS. Here are some other major catosprophic crashes attributed to structural failure. Turkish DC-10, Paris, 1974 - Aft cargo door b
61 KL911 : Yep, but don't forget they happen more often to Boeing................
62 JAL777 : KL911.... Two of those aircraft aren't even Boeings... and they all happened back in a time when Airbus was a very small manufacturer.
63 KL911 : JAL777, I'm talking about ALL incidents and Accidents. Boeing is clearly not save at all compared to Airbus.....
64 Post contains images Scbriml : JAL777, Boeing can't have it both ways - if they claim the MDC built a/c as Boeing, they have to take the crashes as well! The fact is Boeing has buil
65 Tom_eddf : In my opinion, the discussion about composites as "cheap plastics" and that the A300's "cheap" tail caused the accident is actually b.s. Composite mat
66 VC-10 : Take the term SCAREBUS to joke about Airbus, but don't scare people who don't know it better. Unfortunatly the "Scarebus" protagonists that have contr
67 Jhooper : Anybody know why the captain never took over? Most pre-takeoff briefings I've listened to between flight crews contain something along the lines of "I
68 Tekelberry : the A320's Warsaw touch down sensor incident Since you bring that up, it's not the design of the aircraft I'm as worried about as Airbus trying to cov
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