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Air India Confirms New FRA-ORD Service  
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5796 times:

Air India is now confirmed to launch 3x weekly service from Frankfurt FRA to Chicago ORD from December 4, 2003. This service will be in addition to the already existing 3x weekly service from London LHR to Chicago ORD. All services will be operated by Boeing 747-400 aircraft with 3-class service featuring Flat Beds in First Class and the newly upgraded Business Class Slumberette seats with 170 degrees of recline and 62" of pitch. Flights will be loaded for sale into various CRS systems by the weekend. Air India will have full 5th freedom traffic rights on the transatlantic sectors.

The new flights will be designated as AI 127/126 and will operate on the following schedule.

AI 127/126 (Mon/Thu/Sat)

BLR d 0355
BOM a 0525 d 0745
FRA a 1200 d 1330
ORD a 1530 d 1900
FRA a 1000+1 d 1145+1
BOM a 2359+1 d 0125+2
BLR a 0255+2

The BOM-BLR-BOM legs will operate with 744 equipment on Mon/Sat only. The service will operate with A310 equipment on other days.

Air India will now offer 20 weekly direct services between India and the US, more than all other carriers on the route combined. The airline operates daily from Mumbai and Delhi to New York JFK via London LHR and daily (begins October 27) from Mumbai to Newark EWR via Paris CDG in addition to the existing and new services to Chicago ORD via London LHR and Frankfurt FRA respectively.

41 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFLY777UAL From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4512 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5775 times:

Do you have any pics of their new seats?

F L Y 7 7 7 U A L


User currently offlineBobs89irocz From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 632 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5727 times:

Sweet, im looking foward to seeing that A310 comming in with the Air Inida colors....im not a Scarbus fan at all but will be nice to see a different breed of wide bodys come in to ORD...the only other A310 operator to ORD is FedEx, that doesnt happend very ofter they normall bring in the A300 along with DHL......crap, im rambeling again, sorry guys.

User currently offlineFly-K From Germany, joined May 2000, 3149 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 5698 times:
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err... where does it say they'll fly the 310 to ORD...?


Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
User currently offlineVimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5639 times:

Dream on.. if anyone's expecting AI's 310s in CHI

It's going to be B744s all the way.

rgds//Vimanav



Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
User currently offline9V-SVE From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 2066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 5597 times:

LOL I doubt the A310 can even operate FRA-ORD nonstop  Big grin

The A310 will only operate the BLR-BOM leg of the flight on Mondays and Saturdays. The 744 will operate the leg on Thursdays and the BOM-FRA-ORD leg on all three days.


User currently offlineLfutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3334 posts, RR: 27
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5525 times:
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How much farther is PRG-EWR on an A310 than FRA-ORD??? I could see an AI A310 in ORD... It would compete w/ PIA? Or am I totally nuts and Czech ops their A300 to EWR and PIA ops their A300 to ORD??? It's too early for me as it's 0831 am CST.

Leo/ORD



Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4755 posts, RR: 43
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5474 times:

Good move on Air India's part as theyre now finally realizing the potential they have with USA routes.

Since theyre going to leasing even more B 744s from Korean Air or some other company...why dont they seriously look into the about to be 7 parked SIA B 744s? They have PTVs in every seat plus an amazing F & J class product similar to the new product of AIs.

PIA will be sending B 777-200ERs from May 04 to ORD, JFK, LHR and YYZ nonstop from Pakistan. At least thats what the plan is. Definitely nonstop to LHR, but I bet it would still be via MAN and BHX to JFK-YYZ & ORD. PKs B 772s will be in 2 classes ...327 seats all having PTVs and J class will be having a 150-160 recline and a seat pitch of 62 inches similar to their ex-CX B 743s.

Whats the plan for Air India and USA West Coast flights to LAX or SFO? I read that BLR-SFO was in the works.


User currently offlineGamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 5449 times:

AI still doesn't get it as far as Bangalore goes. I guess Bangalore leg of this ops is to satisfy the local IT industry demand for direct Bangalore - Europe flights. But what is the point in flying from Bangalore to Bombay, wait there for two hours and then fly to FRA? When Lufthansa is operating direct Bangalore - Frankfurt, why would anyone want to take a flight to FRA via Bombay which takes good 3 or 4 hours more? Ofcourse AI offerring will be cheap and I think main target here is Indian parents visiting their children in EU/US. I have a feeling that Bangalore leg will be axed within few months of ops when they realize that there are hardly 20-30 passengers in 747/310 from Bangalore to Bombay.

Kinda lame strategy to silence Lufthansa/Bangalore's demand for more flights to Bangalore/EU I guess. "Hey we also fly to Frankfurt (albeit taking several hours more), so don't ask for more flights to Bangalore"

Cheers


User currently offlineJaysit From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

"AI still doesn't get it as far as Bangalore goes. I guess Bangalore leg of this ops is to satisfy the local IT industry demand for direct Bangalore - Europe flights."

Uh. Bombay is Air India's HUB.
Airlines transfer passengers through their hubs. Erego the blr-bom leg. Lufthansa's blr flights are not terminators into Frankfurt for the majority of its pax. They merely hub and spoke the BLR traffic through FRA into the EU, the UK and the US. If AI could develop a rational hub and spoke system through BLR with banks of flights coming into Bom from Indian and Asian destinations coinciding with banks of flights leaving for the West, then I suppose they can be a viable alternative to the big EU majors. But I suspect that they're too busy trying to get generators for their stored inflight DVDs - a task that any idiot with a second-rate HSC education in the private sector in India could have done in less than 30 minutes.


User currently offlineVimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5384 times:

Kinda lame strategy to silence Lufthansa/Bangalore's demand for more flights to Bangalore/EU I guess. "Hey we also fly to Frankfurt (albeit taking several hours more), so don't ask for more flights to Bangalore"

The Government of India has announced an open sky for all West European and US carriers for the next two winter schedules. The last winter, LH took full advantage of this offer and operated 6/7 FRA/BLR/FRA with pretty high seat load factors.

So at least for the next couple of years, LH need not worry about AI's BLR/BOM/FRA service as a line to keep them out of the market. AI could pick-up good traffic ex BLR if the price is right. Believe me there are enough people who finance their own trips who will opt for this even if they have to wait a couple of hours in BOM. Moreover, AI has some excellent SPA deals with US carriers by which they would be able to carry pax for points beyond CHI as well at a very competitive price even if it is served by LH or their codeshare partners. However LH is pretty well ensconced in BLR with some superb corporate deals to the large houses that matter. On the other hand, AI could make the best of their corporate deals with Tata Infotech and a couple of others with whom they have an India-wide deal.

The going could get tough if a couple of more European carriers opt to come in BLR.

rgds//Vimanav



Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4755 posts, RR: 43
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 5358 times:

A solution to this problem can be like that of PIA.

Fly the ORD route BLR-BOM-FRA-ORD all the way with 744, make the flight BLR-BOM stop in BOM for 1.30 hrs max but do not change aircraft, just make the BLR pax sit in the aircraft for 1.30 hrs like PIA does for KHI-LHE/ISB-JFK/YYZ flights. This change of aircraft nonsense especially in Indian airports which arent clean and less organized plus very very security conscious is a big big hassle for BLR pax to endure (esp if theyre changing from dom terminal to intl terminal) and if I was a BLR pax...anyday my choice would be LH even if its RS 1000-3000 more...plus LH is anyday a better airline than AI plus less time for their flights and transitting in FRA is superb.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5318 times:

Fly the ORD route BLR-BOM-FRA-ORD all the way with 744, make the flight BLR-BOM stop in BOM for 1.30 hrs max but do not change aircraft

The plan is to operate the aircraft on a BOM-FRA-ORD-FRA-BOM-BLR-BOM rotation. Same aircraft on ORD-BLR via BOM, but a change of plane (for cleaning/servicing) on the BLR-ORD via BOM. This applies to the Mon/Sat flights. On Thursdays of course, the BOM-BLR-BOM service will be operated by an A310 instead.

However, all AI flights arrive/depart from the International terminal II-C in BOM. Passengers will clear customs/immigration at BLR itself and will be in sterile transit in BOM.

what is the point in flying from Bangalore to Bombay, wait there for two hours and then fly to FRA? When Lufthansa is operating direct Bangalore - Frankfurt, why would anyone want to take a flight to FRA via Bombay which takes good 3 or 4 hours more

By your same logic, when Air India is operating same aircraft service BLR-ORD, why would anywone want to take a flight to FRA, then wait there to CHANGE planes before proceeding on to the USA? As I mentioned on August 8 on this thread, the main reason the 744s are going into BLR is to offer the 3-class product all the way through in the market (same reason they currently fly them on AMD tags to the EWR flights). Right now, BLR O&D traffic commands approximately 20% of AI's load on India-Chicago routes, which can undoubtedly be boosted to about 30% or so with the same-aircraft service. The flights will also be timed to connect with the CDG/EWR services and giving a chuck of connection traffic there too. The rest of the pax on the tag leg can either be local domestic traffic or transfer traffic to the many Gulf destinations served from BOM and not BLR. Hence, it makes a LOT more sense for AI to fly this route via BOM purely for traffic reasons, without even going into the additional logistics that flying BLR-Europe nonstop would entail.


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5272 times:

"Hence, it makes a LOT more sense for AI to fly this route via BOM purely for traffic reasons, without even going into the additional logistics that flying BLR-Europe nonstop would entail."

Would you elaborate on what additional logistics would be required to operate BLR-Europe nonstop?

The only one I can think of offhand is crew positioning.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5256 times:

The only one I can think of offhand is crew positioning.

Well, that is a major one but not the biggest one. Aircraft positioning would be a major issue as well. The 744 fleet is based out of BOM, so a BOM-BLR positioning leg would be needed to get them to BLR anyway. To operate BOM-BLR-FRA is simply assinine when BOM is clearly a significantly larger market and is also about 500 miles closer! Hence the BLR-BOM-FRA route makes more sense.

Crew positioning is also an issue because BLR is not even a layover station right now. Additionally, with only 3x operations through there, it would mean leaving a valuable 744 crew on a total of 4-5 days of layover there (in addition to the time spent on layover in FRA and ORD) on an ORD pattern. AI is already desperately short of crew and this would cause way more trouble than it would be worth.

Finally, the BLR market is simply not strong enough to support a 744 on O&D to either FRA or ORD. It is one thing for LH to operate into their hub with a huge network to feed, but quite another for AI to run a point-to-point operation with 400+ seats.


User currently offlineVimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

How much farther is PRG-EWR on an A310 than FRA-ORD??? I could see an AI A310 in ORD... It would compete w/ PIA? Or am I totally nuts and Czech ops their A300 to EWR and PIA ops their A300 to ORD??? It's too early for me as it's 0831 am CST.

PRG-EWR is 4095 miles
FRA-ORD is 4393 miles

Yes OK does operate A310 on PRG-EWR. In fact LH used to operate FRA-EWR some years ago with an A310 as well (approx 3869 miles). It may be entail some load restriction for FRA-ORD though AFAIK LH did not have any load restriction for FRA-EWR. As far as PK A300s go, I don't see them venturing beyond the Gulf/Middle East leave alone North America.

rgds//Vimanav



Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5239 times:

-437B,

Thanks for the reply. What about deadheading a crew in? Would deadhead time put a crew over their duty limits on a flight to Europe?


User currently offlineFRALIM From Germany, joined Jun 2003, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5233 times:

one question: will this new flight BLR-BOM-FRA-ORD-FRA-BOM-BLR be in adition to the current AI 164/165 BOM-DEL-FRA-DEL-BOM fights or will the three weekly service of AI164/165 be replaced?

Cheers
Chris


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5207 times:

will this new flight BLR-BOM-FRA-ORD-FRA-BOM-BLR be in adition to the current AI 164/165 BOM-DEL-FRA-DEL-BOM fights

As of now it is slated to be in ADDITION to those flights.

AI 165 will operate BOM-DEL-FRA on Tu/Fr/Su with 747 Classics
AI 127 will operate BLR-BOM-FRA on Mo/Th/Sa with 747-400s

On the return, there will be 2 AI flights FRA-India on Tu/Fr/Su. AI 164 will operate 2 hours later than AI 126 on Tu/Fr/Su to allow ORD-DEL pax to connect at FRA. Outbound pax DEL-ORD will fly DEL-FRA on the codeshare AI 6761 opb Lufthansa and then connect to AI 127 at FRA.

[Edited 2003-08-22 18:22:06]

User currently offlineFRALIM From Germany, joined Jun 2003, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

ok, i already answered the question myself. I checked at Amadeus and i.e. for 06JAN there are two AI flights from FRA to BOM listed AI 164 and AI 126!!!!
But I think the new flights are not bookable yet as at at "Availability" it says "Shuttle" instead of "Yes" or "No"... don't know what that means....

Chris


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5200 times:

What about deadheading a crew in? Would deadhead time put a crew over their duty limits on a flight to Europe?

Well, you could either deadhead a crew in on the same flight (creating the problem of what to do with the operating crew for the first leg) or on another flight (creating the problem of starting up a layover station). Duty time would be an issue indeed, but you can fix that by adding a 3rd pilot. However, that all costs money and really makes no sense for any and all of the reasons I mentioned above.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 5177 times:

But I think the new flights are not bookable yet as at at "Availability" it says "Shuttle" instead of "Yes" or "No"... don't know what that means....

As I said in my first post, the flights should be open for sale through various CRS systems by this weekend. They have been progressively loaded into most systems over the last few hours.

As always, you get the real scoop right here before it happens!  Big grin

[Edited 2003-08-22 18:25:17]

User currently offlineFRALIM From Germany, joined Jun 2003, 121 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5164 times:

@B747-437B: didn't see your post when I wrote mine. But thanx for the info!!!

I am a little surprised to see a AI/LH codeshare there! I didn't know that was planned. Will the DEL-FRA be the only code-shared flight?

I guess that means AI will move to T1 in FRA when the new flight is installed.

Chris


User currently offlineVimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 23, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5155 times:

The AI/LH codeshare does not only extend to DEL but to BOM services of LH as well. And no, they wont shift to T1 at FRA.

rgds//Vimanav



Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 5144 times:

AI codeshares on LH's DEL-FRA flights 4x weekly on days they don't operate their own DEL-FRA service. The also codeshare 3x weekly on LH's BOM-FRA flights, as well as on AF for daily CDG-FRA flights that connect to AI's BOM-CDG service.



25 DIJKKIJK : Most westbound traffic from India seems to come from the south/west and is usually US/UK bound. AI must be losing a lot of money operating all its wes
26 B747-437B : AI must be losing a lot of money operating all its westbounds via DEL Just curious, but where do you get the idea that AI is operating "all" westbound
27 Vimanav : Most westbound traffic from India seems to come from the south/west and is usually US/UK bound. AI must be losing a lot of money operating all its wes
28 Gamps : B747-437B, Thanks for the info. I hope you see where I am coming from. Tickets to Bangalore, especially in Biz is so tough to get at the last moment,
29 Post contains images B747-437B : in IT biz, we take decision to send/get people for discussion etc at the last minute and we want to get there quickly Does arriving at 2am rather than
30 Jaysit : " If BA wants more rights to operate to India, they have to give AI equal access to the UK. Simple reciprocity." Flights that AI don't have the wherew
31 B747-437B : AI whines about having no viable slots at LHR even as it has no planes to operate those routes Come now Jaysit, please don't tell me you believe that.
32 Behramjee : Air India's B 747s are also -200s out of which a vast majority and parked and incapable of flying any longer on long haul routes such as those to LHR.
33 AlitaliaORD : thats great news! Air India offers great fares, so American, United and Lufthansa are gonna have to get their hands dirty if they wanna coincide on th
34 B747-437B : Air India's B 747s are also -200s out of which a vast majority and parked and incapable of flying any longer on long haul routes such as those to LHR.
35 Vimanav : Flights that AI don't have the wherewithall to operate. Do quite agree with Jaysit on this view. While AI might be able to serve LHR with additional f
36 B747-437B : Is Krishna Deva Raya/EFU also in storage ? since when ? EFU is grounded at BOM sans engines since January. She is in need of a D-check which is simply
37 Jaysit : "AI whines about having no viable slots at LHR even as it has no planes to operate those routes Come now Jaysit, please don't tell me you believe that
38 B747-437B : The 744s are packed on the US routes. What will AI operate on an additional 6 weekly frequencies to LHR? The current 744 schedule of 15 US flights plu
39 Jaysit : Interesting. Isn't AI in final stages of negotiating for its 6 remaining slots into Heathrow now?
40 B747-437B : Isn't AI in final stages of negotiating for its 6 remaining slots into Heathrow now? Nope. The slots are not forthcoming so there will be no additiona
41 Jaysit : "Nope. The slots are not forthcoming so there will be no additional service this winter. The UK got what they wanted though with permission for BA to
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