Sjoerd From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 361 posts, RR: 0 Posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6360 times:
What's Airbus saying about the B7E7, is it taken seriously ? Will there be an answer to it, a new A300 type ? I think with little investment and using the technology of the A345/346/380 Airbus is very well capable of competing with Boeing. As far as the A330 isn't a competitor...
Maybe announcing development of an aircraft like the 7E7 is admitting Boeing is going in the right direction ? Therefore they could await a decision until more is known about the B7E7.
Airbus must have something up it's sleeve !
[Edited 2003-08-23 01:13:27]
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
StarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3354 posts, RR: 9
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6280 times:
I think Airbus is really focused on the A380 right now to care that much about competing with the 7E7 and I don't think it would be all that difficult for them to compete with the 7E7. All I think they would have to do is release the A332/A333 in an ER version and put more efficient engines on it so it can compete with the 7E7's expected range as it can already compete in the passenger expectation of the 7E7
Qb001 From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6190 times:
So far, Airbus' answer, right or wrong, is to say that most of the 7E7 efficiency, compared to existing products such as the 767, will come from its engines. Therefore, when these new engines become available, they'll stick them under the 330/340 wings and they'll have a competing product, only cheaper.
Is it true or appropriate? Time will tell...
[Edited 2003-08-23 01:40:11]
Never let the facts get in the way of a good theory.
Flybynight From Norway, joined Jul 2003, 1005 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6159 times:
For Boeing the timing is good since Airbus is pretty much using its capital to develop the A380. I believe Airbus has stated they will develop a new widebody jet towards the end of this decade to replace the A330/A340 (and I suppose the A300/310) if necessary. This assume the 7E7 is taking the majority of marketshare.
There are going to be a lot of 767's and early 330/340's that need replacement over the next 5-20 years. Could be an interesting battle.
I hope the 7E7 is a departure from current designs; something that will really grab the flying public's attention.
MITaero From United States of America, joined exactly 11 years ago today! , 497 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 6146 times:
>All I think they would have to do is release the A332/A333 in an ER version and put more efficient engines on it so it can compete with the 7E7's expected range as it can already compete in the passenger expectation of the 7E7
You guys seriously think that the engines are the only new development on the 7E7? Airbus can compete in time, but it won't be as easy as you think - Boeing has poured a lot of money into R&D for the E7.
Scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12393 posts, RR: 46
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6067 times:
L.1011, surely the 'exclusivity' part of the deal only means that the engine manufacturer is the sole supplier for the 7E7, not that they can't sell the engine to another aircraft maker. I can't see any engine manufacturer agreeing to cut their potential sales market by 50%!
Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
B2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5968 times:
Boeing has stated that the 7E7 will probably have only one, possibly two, but certainly not three engine options, so competition between GE, PW, and RR will be intense. Boeing would be foolish not to require exclusivity as a requirement for 7E7 participation and make life that much harder for Airbus. Whoever wins the 7E7 deal will gain access to a potentially huge market, so I doubt they will be too upset about signing a Boeing-only contract, especially if it looks like the A330 will be the sales underdog going forward.
My money is on General Electric, given that only GE engines are available on all of Boeing's long-term aircraft (737NG, 747, 777) and that Boeing has developed an increasingly close relationship with GE. Undoubtedly, the losers will apply any new technology developments to other programs, including the A330. It will certainly be an interesting competition.
If you let out the marketing talk in these articles I believe it comes down to this:
Airbus says it can build an A330-500 (200-250 seats market, shorter version of the A330 with more range and direct competitor to the B7E7) for $200 million against $8 billion as costs to develop the B7E7. Boeing has to get that money back when it sells the aircraft, inevitably the B7E7 will be a lot more expensive than the A330-500ER. This will cool down interest from airlines.
Flanders + Wallonnia + Brussels = the UNITED STATES of BELGIUM
Ruscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 5494 times:
There is no doubt in my mind that Airbus would be able to produce a 7e7 type aircraft from a technology point of view, trouble is, they have bet the business on the 380, and will not be able to come up with the resources, in time for the expected 767/A300/310 replacement market.
Paradoxically, the 380 as I have said many times,and many others have also, is the greatest threat to Airbus dominance. There is now a window of opportunity for Boeing to introduce new designs, and Airbus will not be able to respond without some pretty big Govt aid.
Even worse, money is now starting to flow for the A400 and this is what will sustantially maintain the Cash flow surplus Airbus is using to fund the A380. This will lead to another funding crisis in the future, even after A380 development has started to fall.
What all this means is no Airbus 7e7 competitior, without substantial Govt assistance.
Tom_eddf From Germany, joined Apr 2000, 451 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5436 times:
> Airbus could re-release the A332 A333, but it is not the BRAND NEW Technology being used in the 7E7. 7E7 is BRAND NEW, A332ER would be a old dog with new tricks (when compared to the 7E7)
So is the 737 NG, and it's still doing quite well against the A320, considering that it is a 30 years old design.
Boeing itself has stated that the majority of savings will be generated through the use of new engines. So Airbus just took this argument. We will see how it works.
> Well thats all fine and dandy for Airbus, until Boeing engine manufacturer(s) sign(s) a exclusivity contract and patent the technology. Then, Airbus is screwed.
I would doubt that any engine supplier will be stupid enough to agree with such a nasty deal. Do all the development work, invest tons of money, and after all, patent the technology to your customer?
That will never happen, as someone said above, they will limit their combined sales potential to roughly 50%, max. 60% of the market. For example, if GE and RR would supply engines for the 7E7 based on such a contract, with the GE for some reasons doing better and grabbing 75% of 7E7 sales, RR would be limited to ~17% of the total market size.
Customer structure for the whatever Airbus "A350" could be completely different from the 7E7 in that scenario, with a strong RR preference. Stupid not to grab this market.
Patenting won't work anyway, there are always at least two paths to reach your goal. If GE patents the technology, RR will bring a similar product with a fan spinning in the opposite direction. Simple example: Hewlett-Packard has thousands of patents on inkjet and cartridge technology, but won't you say that Epson and Canon offer nice printers as well????
Ruscoe From Australia, joined Aug 1999, 1542 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 5402 times:
The most expensive part of A380 development has not started yet. Completing the detail design, the tooling, initial assembly, fatigue testing, systems integration, flight testing, correcting problems, obtaining performance guarantees, meeting noise targets, and so on, and so on. It surprised me also when it was first pointed out to me, that it is the second half, not the first half of development which is the most expensive.
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7990 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5312 times:
My guess is that if Airbus is to build a 7E7 competitor, it will essentially build something that has the fuselage length of the A300B4 (e.g., shorter than the A330-200) but will sport an all-new, high-efficiency wing and new engines, too.
They better do it soon before LH places a potentially large 30-40 plane order for the 7E7.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 5277 times:
The great thing about all the competition between the manufacturers is that, whichever engine manufacturer doesn't win will rush straight to Airbus and continue developing an engine that WILL work for an enhanced A330.
What that will do is not beat the 7E7, but will buy Airbus time to compete fully, while also continuing to win orders especially at large A330 operators or operators that need to replace existing frames before they can get 7E7 delivery slots.
The 7E7 is a long way away, but when it hits it WILL make a big splash. Airbus has a lot of work to do... hope the A380 focus doesn't distract them.
Sabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2714 posts, RR: 47
Reply 20, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4931 times:
Airbus continuously says that in order to maintain their position as the market leader (words from Airbus before I get attacked on that) they have put in place a corporate structure allowing them -as the only manufacturer in the world- to run 2 fully new and 2 development programs all at the same time.
Sounded very ambitious at first, but we must admit Airbus is doing even better right now: with the A380 and the A400 (both new from scratch) and the A318 together with the A340-500/-600, Airbus is currently even pulling a 2+3 (ok, 2+2,5) on Boeing.
By mid 2006 the A380 design and certification will be terminated, and Airbus already hinted more than once they could/would use their freed resources to focus on a (most likely fully new) replacement product for the A300/A310 which is exactly the B7E7 segment....
Besides, at the end of this year both A318 and A340-500/-600 project come to a successful conclusion, so from next year on Airbus can and most certainly will look back at the other models too.... the A330 being of course the most likely candidate....
Seems a lot of knowledge, time and resources will be available in due time to give Boeing and its 7e7 a good run for its money....
Vimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1516 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4878 times:
An new version of the A330 is not the answer for the B7E7 in my opinion. We have traditionally seen especially in the 70s/80s/90s that a new aircraft design does potentially better than a spruced up competitor no matter how successful the latter design has been.
In light of the fact that Airbus is concentrating (correctly) all their resources on the A380 programme, I doubt if they would have the funds to come up with an entirely new design to counter the B7E7 which will have a clear head start over any thing that Airbus could logically come up with.
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
Varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1583 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (10 years 11 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4603 times:
please be serious
"Saying the 737NG is a 30-year-old design is misleading. The 737NG has a new wing which is the most critical part that determines how efficient an aircraft is."
you really think wing efficiency is what matters most when it comes to a short hopper like the 737?!?
it's not because of a wing change you can say you have a brand new plane...otherwise you would have the 737 NNG after they added the winglets
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: I doubt Airbus can just improve the A330 to compete with the 7E7. Remember Boeing is using new material for the fuselage, the nose is pretty aerodynam
: Varig md-11: Obviously you don't have a clue of aircraft design. How capable and how well a plane can perfrom are highly dependent on the wing design.
: Nothing about the B7E7 is certain yet, they're still developping it ! You can't tell yet what the wing, nose, engines,... will look like. All we have
: .....All we have is some digitally designed pictures and promises from Boeing..... That may be all you have; I assure you, Boeing has worked with a nu
: so naive as to think that what Boeing is working on for years Airbus can do in their spare time? Get real! If this aircraft does meet some of the spec
: .....All we have is some digitally designed pictures and promises from Boeing... You'll have to admit that Boeing has lost credibility by launching pr
: Airbus got to their current market position largely on a mistake/miscalculation on the part of Boeing. While Airbus was developing the A320 Boeing was
: The A345 and A346 are substantially improved products but they arent holding up well against the 777. This is a nonfact. The A345 has outsold the 772L
: The 777LR and 773ER arent even in service yet and the 773ER is still in flight test. Given the three year lead the A345 and A346 had in design approva
: Perhaps not something to brag about, but you certainly cannot support the statement that they aren't holding up well against the 777. They are. N
: Well, it all depends on your point of reference. Gigneil is looking at the whole program's sales records. Flaps is probably looking at the orders sinc
: You'll have to admit that Boeing has lost credibility by launching programs like the Sonic Cruiser and then dropping them again. The Sonic Cruiser pro
: Exactly. And it takes guts to put a new idea for a product out to the customers in order to gauge reaction.
: The Sonic cruiser and 7E7 were two variants (of 3) of the NAPD - New Airplane Program Development. Remember Yellowstone, Glacier, etc.? I've been invo
: "The Sonic Cruiser program was never launched. 7E7 is not launched yet, either."
: My guess is that Airbus's alleged capability to do 2 clean sheet designs at once is kind of like the Pentagon's alleged ability to fight two Desert-St
: Sounds like the 7E7 will be in a class by itself!
: Just some thoughts: "Well thats all fine and dandy for Airbus, until Boeing engine manufacturer(s) sign(s) a exclusivity contract and patent the techn
: Flaps: "Even the A320 line has hit maturity and is holding its own primarily through aggressive discounting." I don't think so. The developments costs
: Tom_eddf: Let's get some facts straight. Airbus never did breakeven on the A300 program. With so few B2 and B4 built, the original A300 program should
: Very passionate and lively debates going on - but at this point all hypothetical, of course. Realisticaly, Airbus is under no pressure to begin formul
: Dynkrisolo, where did you take your facts from? The A300 is manufactured on the same line as the A330/340, and it is efficient.
: Tom_eddf: So, are you telling me now the 330/340 is a 30-year-old design? Have some common sense please. Other than the fuselage cross section, the 30
: The biggest risk is financial. First of all, the airlines. Will there be enough airlines that will have a healthy enough balance sheet to purchase en
: Planemaker..... Excellent questions. These are what all good businesses consider before launching a new program, and you can be sure Boeing is doing t
: Here's an interesting bit of logic chopping. If Airbus can make the 10+ year old A330 keep up with the 7E7 through modification, why wasn't Boeing abl
: A wider fuse on the 767 would be effectually a whole new plane, since it would also have required new wings to support that weight. I completely agree
: I think this is the tack that Airbus will take. Stem the flow of 330 -> 7E7 defectors by improving the product, then when resources become available
: Dynkrisolo, I'm not talking about the design, I'm talking about the production facilities, and indeed the A300 is manufactured on the same line as the