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West Region Hub For NWA  
User currently offlineBAGSMASHER From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 165 posts, RR: 0
Posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3614 times:

Remember back in 90s (dont remember exact year) when NW announced service from RNO to SEA,PDX,LAX and SAN with A-320s? Then Reno Air cried bitterly, went to the Clinton administration and filed a complaint. Then NW was told that they were not allowed to compete with Reno Air and the plans were scrapped. Then AA signed a codeshare pact with them and took them under their wing, then AA decided they like Reno Air so much that they bought them and then butchered them and ate them. Will NW ever have a hub in the west? Why dont they do a CRJ hub at RNO or ABQ that way their costs would be low enough to effectively battle the LCCs? Or maybe they should buy Frontier and go head to head with a weak UA at a vulnerable time and steal some market share. Any thoughts?

44 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

SFO & LAX are still seem to powerfull to compete with directly.

Phoenix together with Continental & American West ?


User currently offlineMSYtristar From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 6570 posts, RR: 50
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

God I hope they don't buy Frontier! What a travesty that would be!

Seriously, F9 is not looking at mergers/buy outs right now...and for good reason. They are successful on their own.

If you are flying from the Midwest/East/Southeast, MSP/MEM/DTW work pretty well for West coast connections. I don't think they really need a Western hub, nor do I think they want one at this time.


Steve in MSY


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3460 times:
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Probably not. The west coast is overserved. NW won't violate the agreement with Alaska. No west coast flights paralleling AS, and AS would do the same.

Msytristar,
I don't think you have anything to worry about with F9 being bought out. Denver is an overexpensive place to fly out of and once the state does a land value reassesment, the operating cost will once again go up. F9 will have that to deal with. DEN is a bad place to hub out of.



Made from jets!
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6435 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

BAGSMASHER,your writing seems awfully biased against Reno Air. You left out the fact that NW wanted to start that service from Reno, SOLELY AS REVENGE AGAINST RENO AIRfor starting RNO-MSP, which was just a spoke route on a hub.


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineOzarkD9S From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 5108 posts, RR: 21
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Through codeshares and alliances, NW essentially HAS hubs at SEA (AS) and SLC (DL). In order for NW to set up thier own hub in the west they'ld have to take on an incumbent entrenched carrier at one of the viable hub locations. Not the best way to spend precious cash at the moment.


Next Up: STL-LGA-RIC-ATL-STL
User currently offlineAcidradio From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 1874 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3296 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
FORUM MODERATOR

Oh and don't forget that they codeshare with Big Sky in Billings for connecting service to all your favorite destinations in Montana!  Smile Beat that!


Ich haben zwei Platzspielen und ein Microphone
User currently offlineJpetekYXMD80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3291 times:

Yeah, if they have gone all this time without a real attempt to open a big west coast hub, now is certainly not the time to start.


The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3209 times:

BAGSMASHER,your writing seems awfully biased against Reno Air. You left out the fact that NW wanted to start that service from Reno, SOLELY AS REVENGE AGAINST RENO AIRfor starting RNO-MSP,


Actually, I think it was "revenge" for QQ starting a RNO hub and LAX-RNO-SEA service...

[Edited 2003-08-26 21:39:14]

User currently offlineClrd2go From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 1000 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3193 times:


Did somebody say "American West?"



Jim



What a long strange trip it's been
User currently offlineAviatortj From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 1838 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3172 times:

MSP is west of the Mississippi  Smile/happy/getting dizzy...that is sufficient for NWA. Correct?

~TJ


User currently offlineDelta777Jet From Germany, joined Jun 2000, 1264 posts, RR: 3
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3075 times:

NW indeed try to open a "minihub" at RNO due that QQ has opened a ns flight from RNO - MSP, which was withdrawn right after NW started their own RNO-MSP flight !

And HP and CO cancelled their codeshare agreement!

Patrick



Fly easyJet
User currently offlineAS739X From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 6140 posts, RR: 23
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3012 times:

Why do you now consider SEA there west coast hub? They operate a few Asia flights, service to MEM x2 daily,DTW x5,MSP x6...about 6 753 per day. And they cosdeshare with Alaska on a very large amount of flight from SEA. So I think its a mni-hub at the very least. Show that in the onboard magazine. We show MSP layout in the Alaska magazine.
ASSFO



"Some pilots avoid storm cells and some play connect the dots!"
User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2941 times:
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SEA is looked at as a hub because of the codeshare agreement with AS. Alaska's network in shown in it's own window in the magazine. It's there, look for it.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 33
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

Remember back in 90s (dont remember exact year) when NW announced service from RNO to SEA,PDX,LAX and SAN with A-320s? Then Reno Air cried bitterly, went to the Clinton administration and filed a complaint. Then NW was told that they were not allowed to compete with Reno Air and the plans were scrapped.

This acount is hilarious. The Federal government has not assigned airline routes since 1978. So the assertion that the gov't has told any USA airline "they can't fly a domestic route" since then is simply false. Furthermore, the Sherman Antitrust Act does not prohibit businesses from "competing" with each other. It only outlaws specific predatory practices such as capacity-dumping and predatory pricing. If I remember correctly, there were no rulings on this matter regarding Reno Air. If NW stopped running an RNO focus operation, they did it out of their own choice.

Methinks Bagsmasher's usual anti-LCC bias has gotten ahead of his grip of facts.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlinePVD757 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3413 posts, RR: 16
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2892 times:

Don't forget the new codeshare with DL. SLC could be a nice little connecting point for the west as well. I do not think NWA will start anything on their own....They are too busy trying to bankrupt Midwest Express in MKE.

User currently offlineMats From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 631 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

One of NWA's business plans is to fly where the competition does not. I recall an article in Air Transport World about how they do not serve any of the top 10 markets in the United States.

In other words, if the plan remains, Northwest isn't interested in LAX-SFO or LAX/SFO-LAS.

Right now, I don't know of any major Western cities that lack major competition or an existing, well-positioned major carrier.

My guess is that Northwest plans to focus on its strengths: thh North Central states and the Pacific Rim. The rest will all be codeshares.


User currently offlineJetjack74 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 7410 posts, RR: 50
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2774 times:
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MATS, You are so right, it doesn't seem to take much to keep NW out of a market. During one of the employee checklist meetings, Richard(our CEO), was responding a question by an employee. When asked why we don't break into more markets. His response was that all the markets are already overserved. Latin America, Australasia, west coast, Pan-African Region. Tell me, is Australia overserved? No it's not. It's an excuse that may have worked in the 1990's, but if the airline doesn't start competing with the other majors, than NW will have a tougher time in the future. The only region that we compete in is our own. It works, but it's becoming vulnerable to low-cost competition. Detroit is a big target to the LCC's. MEM, and MSP has already become a popular place for Air Tran, Southwest. NW was successful in their fight with Vanguard, but the other LCC's are going to have a better, more solid ground to stand in the future.


Made from jets!
User currently offlineDtwintlflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2697 times:

pvd757...well said. In future years the DL codeshare (and eventual inclusion into SkyTeam) will certainly make a big impact on cities like SLC..... Also, SEA LA and SFO are hubs although they have been downsized in past years...but still this is a perfect example of how the codeshare will be beneficial for NW

User currently offlineAfitch7881 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 816 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

"MEM, and MSP has already become a popular place for Air Tran, Southwest. "



Neither MSP or MEM have Southwest service, and probably never will. SW is not a big player in DTW either.



Eric


User currently offlineAirways6max From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 494 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

Northwest could establish a hub at Seattle/Tacoma. No airline has a hub at Seattle and it is a gateway city, which would make sense for Northwest, given that it has an extensive network to the Pacific Rim and it could offer direct service to cities in the Western United States.


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User currently offlineDtwintlflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2660 times:

SEA is a HUB for us. Now, it isn't as big as it used to be, but it is still a hub where we have numerous flights including NRT HNL AMS and soon to be Maui. Eventually we will bring back our KIX too. Don't forget with our codeshare with Alaska, it keeps us from adding some cities.

User currently offlineDCA-ROCguy From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 4506 posts, RR: 33
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2608 times:

The only region that we compete in is our own. It works, but it's becoming vulnerable to low-cost competition. Detroit is a big target to the LCC's. MEM, and MSP has already become a popular place for Air Tran, Southwest. NW was successful in their fight with Vanguard, but the other LCC's are going to have a better, more solid ground to stand in the future.

As noted, Southwest is not at MEM or MSP. Of the six Cartel-network carriers, Northwest alone has gotten off relatively easily in the current industry restructuring. The central and upper Midwest, NW's domestic backbone, has the weakest LCC service of any part of the country.

All three of Northwest's hubs are in cities small enough not to have secondary airports large enough to serve as LCC hubs. Chicago has Midway; Dallas has Love (even if collared by the evil Wright Amdt.); DC has BWI. All of these airports were ready-made for an LCC to move in and build up. And these metro areas have populations big enough to easily support an LCC at a secondary airport.

Only Detroit seems to have attracted moderately serious attempts at LCC competition. Southwest initially entered Detroit at City Airport, which was too small for this purpose, and the city reneged on a promise to extend the runway and make it suitable. So Southwest, which rarely leaves markets, moved out to DTW and has kept its head down. It's reasonable to wonder if Northwest exerted pressure on the city not to fix up DET.

As we know, AirTran is doing gangbusters at FNT despite the hour drive. If Spirit chooses its battles carefully and keeps its CASM as low as Southwest's, they might realize the big plans they recently announced for the DTW market.

MSP is overdue for invasion. Personally, I'd love to see either Southwest or AirTran fly right into NW's face in MSP and set up a hub operation. AirTran prospers just fine in DL's face at Fort Widget, for example; they might well do just as well at MSP. Why should the upper and central Midwest miss out on what the rest of the country is enjoying? That new HHH terminal isn't exactly bustling, either, so gates at the Lindbergh terminal shouldn't be an issue.

AirTran, for example could probably easily run MSP to BWI, DFW, LAX, BOS, LGA, PHL, MCI, SFO, HOU, MKE, and possibly MLI and OMA. AirTran upped MSP to a fifth ATL flight this summer, so they must be doing well there. Southwest, were they to enter MSP, could easily run BWI, PVD, DTW, LAX, OAK, CLE, MSY, SEA, HOU, and possibly IND. Both of these carriers are far better managed than was the scheduled Sun Country, and have proven track records of establishing themselves in tough markets.

As for MSP being NW's home town and all of that, it's not the late '90s anymore. Businesses in Minnesota as elsewhere have to worry about the cost of flying and might well be open to adding a big-scale LCC presence into the mix up there. Same for DTW and MSP.

Jim



Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2559 times:
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No airline has a hub at Seattle
Absolutely incorrect. Alaska's hubbing at Seattle.


User currently offlinePhxinterrupted From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2516 times:

"No airline has a hub at Seattle and it is a gateway city, which would make sense for Northwest, given that it has an extensive network to the Pacific Rim and it could offer direct service to cities in the Western United States."

Yes, Alaska operates a hub at SEA and for all practical purposes, UA operates a mini-hub with direct flights to Tokyo.





Keepin' it real.
25 MSPXJGuy : NWA has absolutely no interest in the west. At one point there was talk of setting up routes between LAX, PHX, and LAS to get rid of America West code
26 IndustrialPate : NW operated LAS-LAX until 9-11; the flight was a tag onto Flight 1 (LAX-NRT-BKK -- soon to be LAX-NRT-MNL). - - - In the early 1990s, if SEA had the
27 Post contains images Aviatortj : DCA-ROC Guy- You took the words out of my mouth. Also at HHH, phase two of construction called for plans to extend the terminal 10-15 gates out the NE
28 Flybynight : Alaska's main hub is at SEA. NW has at least a minihub at SEA. I still see the NW 742 flying off to Tokyo. You can spot that baby from far away!
29 Acidradio : MSP is overdue for invasion. Personally, I'd love to see either Southwest or AirTran fly right into NW's face in MSP and set up a hub operation. AirTr
30 IndustrialPate : Minnesota is run by communists who don't care. This town will always be owned by NW thanks to a local government who won't do anything to encourage co
31 MSYtristar : Even with strong brand loyalty in an area, Southwest could, if they did indeed enter MSP, grow a large customer base fed up with high fares. Northwest
32 Jetjack74 : Okay we're getting away from the topic of western hub. But is it possible that NW could be eyeing for a merger with AS at somepoint? It has been the
33 IndustrialPate : I think there's a 99.9+% chance an NW/AS merger will never happen... AS is lower cost carrier (and has even considered eliminating First Class). SEA d
34 Trvlr : I'm not sure that the government would support a merger between NW and AS (read: a buyout of AS), because Alaska is one of the few large carriers in t
35 Milemaster : (and has even considered eliminating First Class) If one can even call it that.
36 Tango-Bravo : What would NWA gain from its own West Region hub that it doesn't already have? From MSP/DTW/MEM, NWA mainline flies to all major airports and more in
37 Jetjack74 : What the gov't thinks is irrelevant. The only thing they would be concerned with is how much control will the buyer have at both DC airports and are t
38 Sllevin : While I don't think it's highly probable, I do believe that an NW/AS merger is one of the few that would make sense. Throw in a few more western route
39 Doug_Or : A buyout of Alaska would be almost completely useless. -most of Alaska's routes are fairly competitive and generaly lower yield. (obvious exception be
40 Jetjack74 : Yeah form the east. They might have been poor for those other carriers, because the west coast market is overserved and the little ones couldn't compe
41 EA CO AS : AS will be bought by someone, at somepoint. It's just a question of when. If you said this seven years ago, I'd have agreed, but no longer. No one has
42 Post contains links FATFlyer : . My understanding is that AAG's structuring contains a "poison pill" that makes any hostile acquisition damn near impossible. I thought that AS elimi
43 Jetjack74 : Exactly, I was just about to refer to that. If i hadn't read your post, i'd a missed it. A takeover doesn't have to be hostile. And the share holders
44 Doug_or : My point was that PSA and Aircal were good companies. they got bought by larger cartel carriers whos culture and cost stucture was incompatible. the p
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