CX747 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 4436 posts, RR: 5 Reply 2, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 13275 times:
Finally Boeing is getting aggressive!!!!! I doubt that the order will be overturned though. What I am happy to see though is Boeing getting serious about trying to win some orders. Remeber you make aircraft not web connexions!
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4656 posts, RR: 43 Reply 6, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 13031 times:
Im glad to see that BOEING is getting back to its aggressive marketing tactics that it has used with SQ in the past.
Yes B 742s and 743s are ideally replaceable by B 744s but Air India desperately needs an aircraft in between the size of their 200 seater A 310-300 and 400 seater B 744 so the 300 seater B 772ER is the perfect choice.
Since 17 long haul aircraft are going to be ordered why not order 10 B 777-200ERs, 5 Boeing 747-400s and 2 Boeing 747-400 Combis (to replace the 2 B 743 Combis). As it is the B 747s are going to be used on the USA-FRA routes and that is where currently AI is expanding rapidly.
Yes nonstop 17 hr flights to USA by AIR INDIA should not go through as it wont work for them. I dread to imagine the state of their toilets after a 17 hr flight!!! heheheh
With the new B 777s, AI can then restart MANCHESTER services and expand in China and Australia (SYD-MEL) especially!
Indianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 12849 times:
Im glad to see that BOEING is getting back to its aggressive marketing tactics that it has used with SQ in the past.
Desperate would be more appropriate dont u think?
Since 17 long haul aircraft are going to be ordered why not order 10 B 777-200ERs, 5 Boeing 747-400s and 2 Boeing 747-400 Combis (to replace the 2 B 743 Combis).
There u show your bias again! Nothing wrong with that, if it were based on solid reasoning, which it clearly isnt.
Why Boeing? Why not 8 A330-200's, 4 A330-300's and 5 A340-300's? 'cos Behramjee loves the trash churned out at Seattle?
The Boeing 777 is no doubt a very fine aircraft, but it clearly doesnt fit in the AI mission requirements. I have said it before and I say it again:The 777-200ER is a downright bad choice for Air India, and below I shall lay out my case as to why I say so.
Whatever the professional whiners living to the west of the Atlantic may say,Airbus has a larger market share today because it is doing something right. I am sure the Boeing 777-200ER would look super sexy in Air India's "Palace in the Sky" livery. But thats not what an Airline should be looking for in an aircraft.
Ultimately the selection of aircraft should be based on technical issues and also National interest. Air India needs aircraft that can handle both ultra-long hauls and short haul feeders. Can the 777-200ER do BOTH kind of routes BETTER than say a combination of 330/340's? THAT is the question. Initial Cost of Acquisition as well as operational costs clearly show Airbus to be the winner. The A330-200 with 290 seats 2-class, can serve both regional operations, domestic feeds as well as medium hauls non-stop to Europe. The A330-300 with 335 seats 2-class can handle similar routes but with additional capacity. The A340-300 with 260-280 seats 3-class can handle the ultra-long hauls. All these with the same set of crew! The airframes of the 3 aircraft have 95% commonality, which translates into huge savings on inventory! AI can thus operate different set of aircraft fulfilling specific roles, while at the same time retaining commonality in key areas: A HUGE advantage. The A330 and the A340 are designed for specific roles. The 777 on the other hand is designed for ultra-long hauls, so can it be economic on shorter hauls as well? Or rather, i should ask if the 777 would be MORE economical than the A330-200/300 on a typical route like (say) BOM-MAA-SIN or indeed AMD-BOM-JNB.
Choosing the Boeing 777 would mean using the same airframe for essentially 2 completely different roles: Ultra-Long Haul and Short-Medium Hauls. The Airbus option would mean using different aircraft for different missions, as it should be, but yet retaining and even enhancing commonality benefits. The advantage here comes not just from better technology, but better application of Technology.
Since IC has already plumped for Airbus for its own 43 aircraft order of 120-180 seat aircraft, a combined AI/IC order would help our Govt to negotiate a sweetheart deal from Airbus. IF AI decides to also go in for 12-18 short haul 150-180 seat narrowbodies for the Gulf routes at a later date, then the A32X family again makes sense because again there would be crew commonality benefits between the A32X and the A330/340. Also if AI selects the CFM56 engines for the A340, it would result in substantial savings on the
engineering front as well, since IC is opting for CFM56 engines for their newer A32X’s! The 340-300 would also give AI the capability to scale up later to the larger, more capable A340-500 and -600 as well, and possibly even the A380 at a later stage! Sooner or later, a country the size of India is going to grow to need the 600 seat superjumbo! With Airbus you get flexibility. But with Boeing you cant do that!
And what can Boeing offer at this stage in answer to this? An aircraft that is suitable for long hauls but is questionable for use on shorter hauls? And what does AI then do when it needs a 150-180 seat aircraft? 737-800’s? With Zero Commonality benefits with anything else that AI operates?
And yet some children here suggest that the 777 makes sense because it "would look so sexy"? I mean PUHLEEZE!
Vimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1497 posts, RR: 19 Reply 11, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 12668 times:
While I would tend to agree with Roy's views to some degree, I would disagree on selecting the A330-300 and the A340-300. The former has not exactly been a hot-seller compared to the A330-200 whose range and payload capabilities match AI's requirements more. A logical growth from that would be the A340-500 to cater to AI's long-haul and ultra-long haul sectors. Replacing the B747-400s (my heart breaks to think of this, even though my brain thinks differently) should be the A380.
The A330-200s could do the Gulf / Middle East routes besides the Far East and maybe even ROM/GVA etc.
The A340-500s could do SYD/PER/JFK/CHI/LAX/YYZ/YVR non-stops from India
The A380s could do India LHR JFK or CHI.
Leave IC to do serve the remaining destinations.
Besides the advantages mentioned by Roy, I state once again a point I raised on one of the other threads - not putting all eggs in the US basket and exposing the carrier to the effect of any sanctions imposed at a later date on transfer of technology or sale of spares.
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
Yyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16119 posts, RR: 57 Reply 13, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 12593 times:
The 777 on the other hand is designed for ultra-long hauls, so can it be economic on shorter hauls as well?
ANA uses the 772/773 on very shorthaul domestic routes as well as long haul routes. A 772/773 combination can compete very effectively against a 332/343/345 combination. While the Airbus products can be more finetuned to the specific market, you will have more engine types and hence cost/mx with the Airbus mix potentially.
Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
Hamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2687 posts, RR: 59 Reply 14, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12500 times:
For one thing, let's remember that this order it intended to be for 10 firm and 7 options, not all 17 firm orders. Therefore, the likelihood that this order will be spread around among various models (744, 744M, 772ER/A332,A333,A343) is improbable. Besides, AI has publically stated that the aircraft in question are 772ER or A343 for the 300-seat long-haul, and 738 or A320 for short-haul.
"Ultimately the selection of aircraft should be based on technical issues. . ."
This is the only thing you said that's true. It's also the reason your other points are bulls***.
"Initial Cost of Acquisition as well as operational costs clearly show Airbus to be the winner."
Are you suggesting that you have access to highly confidential purchase contracts and operational statistics from a majority of the world's airlines, specifically those that operate the A330/340 series and/or the 777 series?
Didn't think so.
"The A330-200 with 290 seats 2-class, can serve both regional operations, domestic feeds as well as medium hauls non-stop to Europe. The A330-300 with 335 seats 2-class can handle similar routes but with additional capacity. The A340-300 with 260-280 seats 3-class can handle the ultra-long hauls."
It's very amusing that you believe having a very small fleet of three different types with cockpit commonality is an advantage. Ever heard of 'operational flexibility'? Or how about the case when one aircraft is down for maintanence and you have to replace it? Ever heard of airlines like Southwest, JetBlue, Ryanair, or easyJet? Together these are the most profitable operations flying right now. Know one of the keys to their success? Oops, sorry, you probably don't since you stated the above is an advantage. But you might have guessed by now - that's right, its 'operational flexibility.' Having a standardized fleet (not just the same family, but the same model) greatly simplifies fleet/route planning. It also allows you to quickly substitute one aircraft for another that might go down for maintanence. It also means you don't have to buy as many aircraft, since 1 can do it all for you - a good example is DL, who fly a 777 from Orlando to Atlanta (short-hop), then turn that same aircraft around and fly transatlantic with it. UA does the same thing (DEN-SEA-NRT). It's called (everybody now) 'flexibility.'
"The A330 and the A340 are designed for specific roles."
Yes, which is precisely their problem. It is also why the A330-200, a truly great aircraft, is the A330/340's best selling model hands-down: because it can do a variety of roles.
"The 777 on the other hand is designed for ultra-long hauls, so can it be economic on shorter hauls as well?"
No, the 777 is designed to be a medium-to-long haul aircraft, with only the new LR series designed for the ultra-long haul.
"yet retaining and even enhancing commonality benefits."
Could you please tell me how it is physically possible to chose multiple aircraft over a single one and enhance commonality? This is also, of course, completely ignoring the fact AI would also be buying multiple engines for a A332/A333/A343 fleet, vs. a single engine for a 777-200ER fleet.
"And yet some children here suggest that the 777 makes sense because it "would look so sexy"?"
Roy, so far the only person being a child on this thread is yourself. I suggest you familiarize yourself with the airline industry and its associated operations, then come back. Airbus aircraft have a lot of strong selling points. Unfortunately, you utterly failed to mention any of them in your biased rant against those who suggested the 777 is a better aircraft for AI.
Vimanav From India, joined Jul 2003, 1497 posts, RR: 19 Reply 15, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12499 times:
That sounds more like putting all of your eggs into a single basket.
I mentioned that in another thread a short while ago that in the event of any serious disagreements with the USA then they could impose sanctions on India whereby aviation spares could come under sanctioned items and as a result India's airlines could face a potentially Iraqi Airways, Libyan Arab Airlines like situation.
I'm not saying it has to happen but its better to be wary and pre-empt such situations as far as possible. With Airbus the chances of the EU boycotting India over things like testing a nuke are less compared to USA. But as I said this was discussed yesterday on another thread and would prefer not to enter into another argument over this.
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
L.1011 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 2209 posts, RR: 10 Reply 19, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12412 times:
Indianguy, I'll also say that you are acting childish. You basically made up stuff to make Airbus "the clear winner" Talk about BS. This must hurt coming from someone younger than you. Why order the Airbus family with different engines when you can get a combination of 777 varients or your routes.
Instead of A333, 772A
Instead of A343, 772ER
Instead of A345, 772LR
Instead of A346, 773ER
Instead of 3 different engine families, one. I would suggest Air-India go with GE for their 777s because they can use various GE90s for the whole fleet.
Hamlet69 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 2687 posts, RR: 59 Reply 22, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 12324 times:
Wow. I must say, I am almost speechless. . .
Quite frankly, I don't care if you take me seriously or not. The question is, can you refute what I stated? As to being a "very pro Boeing extremist" (your words, not mine), I'll leave that for others on this forum to decide. I've contributed to this forum for the past three and a half years and have made friends with many on both sides of the A/B argument. I don't need to explain myself any further.
. . . I did say I was almost speechless.
LOL!! Yeah, it's more of a hobby, really. You know, weekend type of thing. . .
Oh, and I definitly describe myself as an "extremist." It's the microscopic print in my hobbies profile. Most people totally miss it. I'm glad KL911 caught it.
BTW - I don't believe I have ever stated that I had never worked in the airline industry. Also, I'm 25, not 21.
Dynkrisolo From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 1845 posts, RR: 8 Reply 24, posted (10 years 3 months 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 12276 times:
If your profile correctly describes who you truly are, namely in the business of aviation marketing and sales, then you should know Hamlet69's reasonings are far more logical and rational than Indianguy's. Ultimately, a person's credibility is established based on what the person says. The title, or lack thereof, shouldn't be the criterion to determine whether you want to take the person seriously or not.
25 Sjoerd: Buying planes back from AI would hurt Boeing more than when the order goes to Airbus. Look what happened with SQ, Boeing lost credibility, it's shares
26 N79969: Sjoerd, Actually Boeing took those SQ 340s as part of a massive B777 order. They did not just buy 340. Perhaps you meant something different. I don't
27 ConcordeBoy: SQ still ordered the A345, the A380 and no additional Boeings. A manufacturer should win orders with a good product and a good price ! Something of an
28 Sjoerd: N79969, I know, all I am saying is that a product should be bought because it's good and it's price is good. All the extra's make Boeing look desperat
29 Hamlet69: Sjoerd, I can understand your point, but buy-backs have virtually become an industry standard. In fact, both Boeing and Airbus were doing it before th
30 Areopagus: Indianguy: Choosing the Boeing 777 would mean using the same airframe for essentially 2 completely different roles: Ultra-Long Haul and Short-Medium H
31 Sjoerd: Hamlet69, ConcordeBoy, SQ still ordered the A345, the A380 and no additional Boeings. I know there was no competition from Boeing for these aircraft,
32 CanadianNorth: Well Im not trying to fuel the fire, all I am saying is to me yes I admit that Boeing is slightly behind, and they ussually cost more to buy, but reme
33 Hamlet69: Sjoerd, I don't mean to single you out in particular, you are just the latest to restate a long-running myth on this forum: that Boeing is finding its
34 Shenzhen: Boeing jet theory: Bigger, faster, better than Airbus - By Shahid Faridi New Delhi, Aug. 26: The battle for the Rs 10,000-crore order to supply aircr
35 Shenzhen: Sjoerd, you wrote... """I know, all I am saying is that a product should be bought because it's good and it's price is good. All the extra's make Boei
36 N79969: Orders from Singapore are always highly contested because of its high profile and prestige. When Boeing and Airbus cut them deals, I don't think despe
37 Starrion: This escalation of competition from comparing aircraft in a restrained and logical viewpoint doesn not seem like a wise move on Dr Keskar's part. I'm
38 Dalecary: I also believe the Boeing offer includes trade-ins on the 747 classic fleet. Additionally, it has been reported in the Indian press this week that Mr
39 Behramjee: The B 777 can lay the smackdown on the A 340! Air India better choose the BOEING 777-738 combo deal especially right now with the extra B 747 Classics
40 Indianguy: The B 777 can lay the smackdown on the A 340! One noticeable thing in the anti-Airbus crowd on here is a complete lack of objectivity and rational th
41 Dynkrisolo: Indianguy: I am afraid Hamlet69 has pretty much refuted your "rational thoughts" in Reply 14. IF in AI's current plan, AI is interested in more than j
42 Tbear815: With all due respect and no malice intended, I really don't think it matters which aircraft the airlines of India decide to choose. Many years ago, I
43 B747-437B: IC used a relatively new 737-XXX.... I didn't tell the crew I had worked for an airline... What bothered me was the fact the Captain was in the cockpi
44 Tbear815: B747-437 - The third man may not have been a F/E, but there were three in the pit. And the airline I worked for didn't fly 737's. We flew 727-100's, D
45 Vimanav: Tbear815 AA. If it was a B737, it could only have been a -200 as IC only had those and no other versions. BB. Yep IC can screw up once a while but not
46 Tbear815: Vimanav - Thanks for your explanations. Again, the third body in the pit could have been a check officer. I don't know the hierarchy, but it just body
47 Vimanav: Please do plan your visit to India. And while here, I strongly recommend that you fly with 9W (Jet Airways)... they will definitely bring about a chan
48 Indianguy: I’d like to draw the attention of the moderators to this particular comment by N79969: As opposed to taking Indianguy seriously? If there is an extr
49 Indianguy: N79969, Hamlet69, YYZ717 etc: Exactly what is it to you whether Air India purchases Airbus or the Boeing? To answer a specific point raised by someon
50 Delta-flyer: I raised some specific points in my post. Yes, but no data! Since you painstakingly described the advantages of the Airbus aircraft over the "trash ch
51 Tbear815: Vimanav, It will be my great pleasure to return to India someday. I'm sure with the 21st century, things have changed in the airline industry in India
52 Behramjee: In response to INDIANGUY : The B 777 can fly faster than the A 330s and can carry more pax + cargo so if its a full flight on the 6hr-9hr or even 14 h
53 Rickb: Behramjee, There is a slight flaw to your logic - you dont get better gas mileage driving at 100mph then you do at 55mph - even though the trip takes
54 Delta-flyer: Rickb, Of course you are absolutely correct. What I find frustrating is that people pick sides for whatever reason but try to rationalize their choice
55 N79969: Roy, The bottom line is that you use an extremely convoluted form of what you dub "rational thought" to arrive at the diametrically incorrect conclusi
56 Lymanm: "So, point being that if the Indian crews don't even know what the fuck they're flying, you ain't gonna see me on an Indian registered a/c ever again.
57 Rickb: N79969, I no way can a mixture of 777 types be considered as flexible as a mixed fleet of A332/333/343/345/346. The 777 is an extremely competent airc
58 Dynkrisolo: RickB: I'll repeat this again. If an airline needs something in the 764ER/332 category as well as the 772/773/333/343/345/346 category, then the Airbu
59 N79969: Rickb, I really cannot add much to Dynkrisolo's remarks. But I will clarify my own post. Notice I specified a mixture of 777s with GE engines. Second,
60 Rickb: N79969, Dynkrisolo's admitted that nothing in the 777 range competes with the A332 - I would even say that nothing in the 777 range competes with the
61 Dynkrisolo: RickB: The 772A is heavier, but it is also a slightly larger aircraft than the 333 and can carry heavier payload than the 333. This means more revenue
62 Indianguy: Interesting points there RickB. How would you rate the cargo capabilities of the Airbus aircraft (specifically the A332/333) against the 777? Dont the
63 Ammunition: does air india really know what it wants??? or what is best for Air India?
64 N79969: Rickb, Of course I realize that there are circumstances in which a slightly smaller A333 would be a more optimal airplane than a standard 777A for som
65 Hamlet69: I have been away from my computer for some time, so I apologize for the lateness in responding to some excellent points that have been raised. "The B
66 Cessna172RG: Take a look at Japan for a moment... JAL and ANA both use the 777-200 on such routes as Tokyo to Osaka, a one hour flight each way, and they even empl
67 Na: Maybe the operating costs for a 777 are slightly lower than the ones for a A340, but its also a more expensive aircraft to buy. A well-equipped 772ER
68 Shenzhen: I just can't understand why Air India doesn't buy Embrear ERJ 170s or 190s, which would offer the most commonality and flexability. Air India should
69 Na: 777 and 744 are pretty different. But the A340 would team up with AI´s growing A310 fleet.
70 Shenzhen: Air-India plan to buy 35 new planes is off Shahid Faridi The Asian Age New Delhi, Aug. 31: In a bizarre twist to Air-India's plan to buy 35 aircraft w
71 Jaysit: Guess Boeing and Airbus will have to come up with an all NEW airplane to meet Air India's imaginary profit making capabilities. Send those Boeing engi
72 Dynkrisolo: Na: Read very carefully. When the one Boeing exec compared the number of parked 340 and 777, he was specifically comparing the 343 to the 772ER. So, t
73 N79969: Another point (or perhaps repetition) with regards to the 332. It is an oddball in the 330/340 family in best possible sense. I think it is enough of
74 Na: Dynkrisolo, what you say is right, Boeing referred to the latest X-versions of the A340 which are 772ER competitors. But nevertheless its pointless fr
75 Dynkrisolo: Na: Boeing-owned or not, they are idled Airbus planes. It's a skewed fact, but it's a fact. That is, he didn't lie. Go talk to any salespersons, I wou
76 Sq_pilot: SQ Boeing deals......Boeing said... Bye bye Singapore, Malaysia we're coming... "SQ still ordered from Airbus"... the result >couple of years ago, Boe
77 Vimanav: If this Asian Age report is true... I am extremely disgusted, disappointed, disillusioned and cannot hide my absolutely murderous feelings for those s
78 Hamlet69: "Maybe the operating costs for a 777 are slightly lower than the ones for a A340. . ." Actually, the operating costs are very similar, though there is
79 Dynkrisolo: Hamlet69: While a specific -100X was not in the plan, a totally undefined 'C-market' aircraft was. At the onset of the 777 design, only three of the f
80 N79969: Hamlet69, You know your stuff. I was driving at your option A. When airline is looking at 300 or so seat airplanes for medium to long range routes, th
81 Luisca: You whant proof that the 777 is a better aircraft? Air france, french airline, wich used to be state owned, flag carrier of france, where airbus is ba
82 Dynkrisolo: I forgot to address one point. As Na later mentions, there is nothing wrong with Airbus trying to stick Boeing with unused and unsellable aircraft. No
83 Rickb: N79969, How can the A332 be considered an oddball in the A330/A340 fleet - it has pretty much full commonality with the A333 - with the exception of b
84 N79969: RickB, What is the bias exactly? They provide all of their cost assumptions and their methodology is completely out in the open. Which assumption or c
85 Indianguy: Vimanav: You shouldn’t get too worked up over an article written by Shahid Faridi. Check out his other aviation related articles in various maga
86 Na: Hamlet69, thanks for getting my figures right. In my head the A340 and A330 are one aircraft family as the 772 and 773 are, without writing that I mea
87 Dynkrisolo: Na: Not a single one stored has been taken out of service because the airline doesn´t want it, with the exception of SIA (but that´s a matter of a d
88 Hamlet69: "I have Boeing marketing materials from the early 90s. . ." As do I, as well as some less public stuff. I also have material pre-dating the '90s, when
89 Dynkrisolo: "To give you a sense of the timeline, the 340-313X entered into service in 1996. To prevent Airbus gaining momentum in this niche market, Boeing coun
90 ConcordeBoy: The other airline, unfortunately, I'm not at liberty to disclose. 'course not.... but ya could name an airport that such an airline (not necessarily,
91 Hamlet69: "That is, the -100X was a quick response to the 340-8000. My time reference of the -313X was intended to show approximately when the -8000 was propose
92 Dynkrisolo: Not necessarily. IB's first A340 was delivered in early 1996 (March, IIRC). I can't remember when they placed their order, but it had to have been pr
93 The777Man: Thanks for the info and your insight on this post, Hamlet69. I'm pretty sure I have figured out which other airline that has been discussing the trade
94 ConcordeBoy: ConcordeBoy: LAX is a great clue. Think of the airlines flying A340s there and I'm sure you can figure it out too Let's see: PR VS LA TN ...who'm I mi
95 Hamlet69: "Any idea why it hasn't happened yet ?" Actually, I don't. My guess is that Boeing is not ready to give any where near the same type of price to this
96 The777Man: Hamlet69: Too bad it didn't happen since the livery would have looked nice on the 777... ConcordeBoy: You can add LH to the list but I'm fairly sure i
97 ConcordeBoy: Hmm, so I'm gonna go ahead and say PR, with a second choice being LA? Which did you come up with 777man?
98 The777Man: Hi ConcordeBoy! I would switch it around; LA first and a distant second, PR. Think I heard rumors that LA wasn't too happy with the 343s fairly soon a
99 BN747: ConcordeBoy: LAX is a great clue. Think of the airlines flying A340s there and I'm sure you can figure it out too Let's see: PR VS LA TN ...who'm I mi
100 Kaitak: Oh yawn, yawn, yawn, we're back to the old 777 -v- A340 thing. Go back to the posts for the 2nd September: it's all off. The Indian government has mad
101 Na: Dynkrisolo/Hamlet69, I appreciate your detail knowledge and your conclusions that in most cases I always found right. But do you think SIA would have
102 Dynkrisolo: Na: still think its "the deal" in the first place and not general dissatisfaction with a particular aircraft type even if it didn´t fulfill its promi