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AirTran Begins DFW Expansion  
User currently offlineGr8slvrflt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1606 posts, RR: 10
Posted (11 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4921 times:

AirTran is adding a DFW - BWI nonstop in November, in addition to the ATL and MCO flights. Up to four gates at DFW are rumored. Gotta luv that Wright Amendment! Also, an eighth daily flight between BWI and BOS is being added.

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (11 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4827 times:

actually, it seems like the real expansion is at BWI:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030827/275077_1.html

good for Air Tran, good for BWI, good for DFW.


User currently offlineIAHERJ From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 677 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (11 years 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4818 times:

Looks like DFW will be a new focus city for us. I think you will see flights headed the other direction from DFW as well on 717's. A few West coast cities come to mind.


Actually flown: EMB-120 EMB-145 B717 B737 B757 B767
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6439 posts, RR: 17
Reply 3, posted (11 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4723 times:

DCA-ROCguy gets his wish!  Smile


Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offline727LOVER From United States of America, joined Oct 2001, 6439 posts, RR: 17
Reply 4, posted (11 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4703 times:

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/030827/275077_1.html



Listen Betty, don't start up with your 'White Zone' s*** again.
User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 5, posted (11 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4702 times:
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It makes sense to build up BWI and go after the routes that you do not go head to head with WN on, and there is a lot of those to chose from. A DFW build up involves taking on both AA and DL, and I know they go up against DL in ATL and do OK. Tho to take on both AA and DL that is a whole nother fight. AA is going to protect its FORTRESS hub tooth and nail.


You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4684 times:

i would add that a DFW build-up involves an overall Dallas/Ft. Worth area build-up too, and it that sense, you are taking on WN in a way. that's where things get interesting - see the thread of LCC vs. LCC.

User currently offlineGr8slvrflt From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1606 posts, RR: 10
Reply 7, posted (11 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

Southwest only operates out of Love Field and because of the Wright Amendment is severely limited in its offerings from Dallas. Because of this there is no direct, low-cost service from Dallas/Ft. Worth to major markets like Florida, New York, D.C., L.A., etc. AA and DL squashed Legend but I think it just might be payback time for them.

User currently offlineM717 From United States of America, joined Dec 2002, 608 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (11 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4664 times:

"AA is going to protect its FORTRESS hub tooth and nail."

I'm sure the powers that be at AirTran never considered this possibility, and just decided willy-nilly to expand here.

AirTran has NEVER based it's business plan on what other companies might do. Unlike these other companies (such as DL), who seem to base their entire business plan reacting to what other companies (such as AirTran and jetBlue) do.

So, let AA protect it's FORTRESS hub (whatever that is...must be another A.net term like "cartel carrier"  Insane ) "tooth and nail". All that amounts to is pouring tons of money down the drain. While I'm certain that all these companies believe they have such deep pockets that they can continue to take huge losses protecting their market share, reality soon hits them squarely in the face. Maybe they notice.....maybe they don't.


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 9, posted (11 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4662 times:
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Potomac

To some extent that is true, tho because of the Wright admedment Airtran can offer service that WN can not offer.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlinePotomac From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 713 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (11 years 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 4663 times:

true, maybe bwi is the better example of LCCs starting to compete against eachother in terms of service offerings.

User currently offlineFlyinryan99 From United States of America, joined Feb 2001, 2004 posts, RR: 13
Reply 11, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4598 times:

"DCA-ROCguy gets his wish! "


My thoughts exactly!! I still wonder if FNT - BWI and DAY - BWI are on the horizon, maybe on CRJs. I say this because the Detroit - BWI market is only served by Northwest and they make a lot of money on this route. I think it would be a success right off of the bat. DAY - BWI would do really well because of the military personnel that would commute between the two cities. Overall this is great for Baltimore and for AirTran....I am just amazed at how much they have expanded their network in the past few years.

Ry


User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4589 times:

Agreed.....

There is no LCC competition at DFW currently, and LOTS of possibilities for AirTran there... LGA, PHL, MSP, LAX, LAS, SFO, all of Florida, MCI, PIT, MEM, etc. etc.....

BWI is one major operation where we're seeing two of the strongest LCCs (granted WN is still the 800 lb gorilla) compete on the same nonstop flights (BWI-TPA, MCO, FLL). So far, so good.

Travis


User currently offlineLuv2fly From United States of America, joined May 2003, 12110 posts, RR: 48
Reply 13, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4578 times:
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M717

"AA is going to protect its FORTRESS hub tooth and nail."

I'm sure the powers that be at AirTran never considered this possibility, and just decided willy-nilly to expand here.

I am sure the powers that be have considered all that the others will throw theres way! I am just pointing out that AA has a history of fighting tooth and nail to protect there market. Also AirTran started PIT tp PHL flights that should have been embraced by all the flyers that US had gouged for years and that did not work.

AirTran has NEVER based it's business plan on what other companies might do. Unlike these other companies (such as DL), who seem to base their entire business plan reacting to what other companies (such as AirTran and jetBlue) do.

I am a firm believer of AirTran and JetBlue and even own stock in both.

So, let AA protect it's FORTRESS hub (whatever that is...must be another A.net term like "cartel carrier" ) "tooth and nail". All that amounts to is pouring tons of money down the drain. While I'm certain that all these companies believe they have such deep pockets that they can continue to take huge losses protecting their market share, reality soon hits them squarely in the face. Maybe they notice.....maybe they don't.



You can cut the irony with a knife
User currently offlineTi717 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 227 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4550 times:

DFW does have other LCC.
You do have to deal with HP out west from DFW that have expanded to both PHX and LAS. With HP DFW is getting a few of 757 flights.



Sir, don't you think we should turn on the runway lights?" "No, that's just what there expecting us to do!"
User currently offlineUsairways85 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 3404 posts, RR: 7
Reply 15, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4545 times:

This isn't much of a buildup at BWI, it's only 2 flights (1x DFW and 1x BOS) It's not any different than what Airtran has been doing for the past year at BWI, adding a few flights here and there. As for DFW it should be interesting to see how the flight does, it's only one flight going up against all of AA's flights to DFW. Should also be interesting if this is part of a DFW expansion with a few more destinations from DFW or if this is a BWI expansion and adding destinations from BWI

User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

Although I'm a HUGE fan of HP, have a lot of friends there, and really want them to succeed (the new nonstop transcons will do very well for them, I'm sure), I don't think AirTran considers them a viable threat....(ATL-LAS, an HP nonstop market, is kicking ass these days).

Travis


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4528 times:

Pardon me for not getting to nervous for AA.....10 flights daily versus 600 is not a threat...it's a joke.

AA has plenty of excess capacity...they can dump their fares on those markets that AirTran competes. If they can run BI and DL out of town.....AirTran is walk in the park....


User currently offlineJayDavis From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 2000 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4498 times:

This article was in the Dallas Morning News Business section today.




AirTran well on its way back
Rebirth seen as unprecedented after deadly ValuJet crash of '96


10:52 PM CDT on Tuesday, August 26, 2003

Associated Press

ORLANDO, Fla. – The crash of a ValuJet DC-9 into the Everglades in May 1996, killing all 110 people aboard, made an industry pariah of the low-fare airline.

A little more than seven years later, the carrier, now known as AirTran Airways Inc., has made a stunning recovery.

This year, AirTran began offering cross-country service, announced a $5 billion aircraft order and reported its fifth consecutive quarterly profit at a time when the major carriers' financial fortunes are sagging.

When it was known as ValuJet, the airline "had old planes, poor service, weak management," said Ray Neidl, an airline analyst with Blaylock & Partners in New York. "Everything has completely changed."

The airline – which recently began flying to Denver, Las Vegas and Los Angeles – will add Ronald Reagan Washington National Airport and San Francisco to its schedule before year's end.

AirTran, which now flies to 43 cities, also plans to add service in three to five cities next year and in 2005, said chairman and chief executive Joe Leonard.

"We can put airplanes anywhere," Mr. Leonard said. "We'll keep pushing our web out further and further."

Moving in


The carrier also is growing at Dallas/Fort Worth International Airport, where it will begin offering service to Orlando, the airline's headquarters city, next month. The carrier currently offers daily flights from D/FW to Atlanta, its largest hub. (Austin is the only other Texas city on AirTran's route map.)

AirTran also is taking advantage of bigger carriers' cutbacks. It's looking, for example, at moving into St. Louis, where Fort Worth-based American Airlines Inc. is reducing service.

The growth intrigues some airline industry experts because AirTran goes about it in such a low-key way.

"I haven't been able to figure out in the case of AirTran what their gimmick is," said Alan Bender, a professor of airline economics at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach, Fla. "I scratch my head at what makes AirTran special."

Yet its turnaround is unprecedented, Mr. Bender said. Other airlines, such as Air Florida, have sunk under the weight of fatal crashes. Air Florida folded a few years after a 1982 crash in Washington, D.C., killed 78 people.

The road to rehabilitation began in 1997 when ValuJet acquired a smaller carrier called AirTran, adopted its name and moved its headquarters to Orlando from Atlanta.

A management shakeup two years later brought a new team of executives headed by Mr. Leonard, a longtime industry executive who served as chief operating officer for now-defunct Eastern Air Lines. Only one member of the company's 14-member leadership team worked for ValuJet at the time of the crash.

But no factor has been more important to its turnaround than retiring the airline's aging DC-9s and bringing in new, roomier Boeing 717s, Mr. Leonard said.


Safe and sound


Industry experts said the new planes have dramatically improved AirTran's safety record.

"Now you look at the airline and it's one of the most modern fleets in the world," said John Wensveen, a professor of airline management at Embry-Riddle.

Seven years after the ValuJet crash, many travelers don't associate AirTran with its predecessor.

Mark Wolsonovich, who regularly flies on AirTran, had no idea that the airline used to be known as ValuJet.

"To me, that's one of those flukes," Mr. Wolsonovich said of the 1996 crash, while waiting for a flight from Orlando to Chicago. "Things like that happen."


User currently offlineJr From United States of America, joined May 1999, 968 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4499 times:

But how long are they going to dump money for - its not like AA has a whole lot of the green stuff at hand to do that on a prolonged basis at this point of time. AirTran is no BI or DL - I think this route will work, and will probably see additional frequencies within the year.


I've flown on 9V-SPK.
User currently offlineLoneStarMike From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 3827 posts, RR: 33
Reply 20, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4476 times:

(Austin is the only other Texas city on AirTran's route map.)

Dallas Morning News is wrong. AirTran doesn't serve AUS. Houston is the only other Texas city AirTran serves.

LoneStarMike

User currently offlineTravatl From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 2173 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (11 years 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4466 times:

Don't pay any attention to Greg, he's a consistent AirTran naysayer.

AirTran's not worried about AA or DL or any of the other "big boys". It keeps it's "eyes on the prize", and worries less about what it's neighbors are doing, and more on it's own operation. DL is struggling to fill the seats it dumped into the LAX market now, while AirTran posts record load factors.

Let AA come in and flood any new AirTran DFW-XXX markets with capacity. AirTran only has to fill a coupla hundred seats a day, then sits back, shakes it's head, and sighs at the multiple 757s and 767s leaving half to three quarters full, trailing cash behind them...

AirTran is less worried about stealing AA market share, than it is about simply GENERATING MORE REVENUE. Maybe if AA did the same, it wouldn't be in the mess it's in now.

Speaking as a former AA employee (now AirTran), I can speak freely of the basket-case which is American Airlines.

Travis


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4421 times:

AirTran is highly leveraged. It doesn't take much to upset the balance between profitability and loss. It's shaky at best--just check their equity (whoaaa! what equity????).
AA doesn't have the deep pockets it once had, but it does have the resources to effectively stomp out any competition on their home turf.
While they may have conceded dominance to UA at ORD---anything more than a minor infraction at DFW would likely not go unnoticed.

While not an employee of AA...I know a lot of their lenders and legal counsel very well...


User currently offlineFlashmeister From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 2900 posts, RR: 6
Reply 23, posted (11 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4413 times:
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AA has plenty of excess capacity...they can dump their fares on those markets that AirTran competes.

And if AA does, the DoJ should take swift action against AA for predatory pricing.


User currently offlineScottb From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 6764 posts, RR: 32
Reply 24, posted (11 years 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 4381 times:

I don't see this as being a "DFW expansion" either -- as AirTran's press release states, this expansion is more focused on BWI. I'm actually surprised that the flights aren't better-timed to provide connections from BOS and ROC to DFW; right now, AirTran is only offering connections via ATL on those routes.

I see this more as testing the waters to see how well they'll do against DL and AA in a city (BWI) where they already have a significant presence.


25 JayDavis : The problem with the DOJ is that they have "tried" to nail AA's ass about preditory pricing before with Vanguard and Western Pacific, if I am not mist
26 N951U : Maybe I'm in the minority, but I've never had problems finding low fares on American, primarily in markets/routes where they have no competition.
27 Post contains images M717 : "While not an employee of AA...I know a lot of their lenders and legal counsel very well..." BFD. I really don't think AirTran gives one rat's a$$ abo
28 N951U : When Vanguard entered the DFW-ICT market, AA started flying jets in that market again, when it had long been a ATR market. Of course, they also match
29 Atcboy73 : Isnt almost everyone higly leveraged these days?
30 JayDavis : Right N951U, If you want to go on living in your little insolated dream world, go ahead. It might be called competition, but it is also called predito
31 Travatl : The best part, is AirTran will be doing with AA's own 717s.... hehehe Travis
32 Jr : I hope Air Tran kicks AA's ass here in DFW and I hope Jet Blue comes in here and rips them a new one also. It is time for DFW to quit being AA's "Bitc
33 N951U : If you want to go on living in your little insolated dream world, go ahead. It might be called competition, but it is also called preditory pricing i
34 Greg : It's always great to root for the underdog..but when they rile an 800lb gorilla..I'd be careful. Last I looked, AA had about 20+ suits of 'predatory'
35 727LOVER : To all the people who like to bring up the Valujet crash: When it was known as ValuJet, the airline "had old planes, poor service, weak management," s
36 Bartond : Yeah I'm all for the competition and I hope jetblue comes to DFW. Then maybe AA will concentrate on it's international route structure and maybe get u
37 Milemaster : A LCC pilot on a 717?.....Wow...BFD (two giant career mistakes) Haha... Agreed.
38 JayDavis : Why don't you change your name on this forum to CheAArleAAder ?? I honestly think it is you that has been hitting the "sauce" today !! Let me ask you
39 DCA-ROCguy : First of all: Woo hoo! Woo hoo! Thanks 727lover and Flyinryan for the notes. I hope to use the flight very soon. AA has plenty of excess capacity...th
40 N951U : I see that any support of AA here is completely unwelcome. Why don't you change your name on this forum to CheAArleAAder ?? I honestly think it is you
41 BHMNONREV : Sounds like the like/dislike for AA could be in another forum. I certainly have my pros and cons for the Eagle.... Any way you want to slice it, the L
42 Greg : As a business traveler with a very demanding schedule..and one that changes often, LCC's like Airtran or JetBlue have little value for me. If I need t
43 JayDavis : Yes you are 100% correct. Any support you give AA on this matter is certainly not welcome in my opinion. I used to work as a travel agent and have wor
44 N951U : Your rude attitude is as unwelcome to me as my support of an employer of many of my friends, and formerly of myself, is to you. Yes, Bob Crandall was
45 DCA-ROCguy : Yes you are 100% correct. Any support you give AA on this matter is certainly not welcome in my opinion. I used to work as a travel agent and have wor
46 OzarkD9S : WOW. A couple of flights by FL out of DFW and AA's collapses or FL dies a hideous death! HP to PHX and LAS hasn't crippled AA, and TZ to MDW hasn't do
47 727LOVER : Some people on here get WAAAAAAAAAY to emotional!
48 Jcs17 : American might not be the best thing since sliced bread, but Bob Crandall as head of AA was. The unions hated him with a passion, and do you want to k
49 Dsuairptman : Whatever,Whatever. If AT goes into DFW, I wish them the very best... as long as the quickly restore the GPT-DFW flight!
50 Jhooper : Fortress Hub is not an a.net term, it does actually have an official meaning, although the exact definition escapes me right now. Check out Prof. Stev
51 Jcs17 : I believe the word Fortress Hub (obviously, I'm not looking it up) has to with the percent of local passengers traveling on the major carrier in the m
52 727LOVER : CLT too, probably. filler
53 LoneStarMike : A fortress hub is where one airline controls more than half of the market (not 80%). Or to put it another way, a fortress hub is where one airline has
54 Milemaster : So does this mean that HP and FL are splitting the 4 gates that opened up recently? I guess that ends the mystery as to whom the new tenant is going t
55 Towerair : You people take this bussiness (as people call it) too seriously,,my god,like cats and dogs.We are all here to do the same job some airlines serve pea
56 JayDavis : I don't care whether you think my comments are rude to you or not. I really didn't lose any sleep over it at all last night. I have friends that work
57 Usairways85 : By the way, Airtran also added another flight from PHL-BOS for a total of 3 daily and 16 daily flights for PHL from 6 destinations. Airtran just added
58 SESGDL : Delta's ATL hub is also a fortress hub, as they carry about 70% of overall traffic. Jeremy
59 Post contains images Milemaster : Hey TowerAir.. Viva la Tower Air!
60 N951U : I don't care whether you think my comments are rude to you or not. I really didn't lose any sleep over it at all last night. Irrelevant. I have frien
61 Greg : Since when are airlines 'friends'??? I didn't initially choose AA..our travel agreement stipulates we use them when possible (with plenty of caveats t
62 Heavymx1 : FL just added another flight from Bwi-Bos. I think that makes 8 trips to Bos a day out of there. Also Look out for a through flight from BWI-XXX-Westc
63 SegmentKing : can someone remind me what this thread was about again??? I'm getting lost :: tailspin ::
64 JayDavis : Greg, Southwest never has pretended to be anything BUT a LCC. They tell you up front, if you want frills, don't fly on us. With WN you know what you a
65 N951U : I have had less than pleasant experiences on both AirTran and Southwest. I've never had a seat in such poor condition as mine on AirTran or an aircraf
66 CMK10 : Time to bring a little pro-American aid to the forum. I consider myself a loyal American flyer from a loyal American family. This year I've flown 25 t
67 Midway2airtran : Going back to the real topic of this forum, I wouldn't get too excited about much FL expansion in DFW or FL getting more gate space. Typically FL will
68 IndustrialPate : can someone remind me what this thread was about again??? I'm getting lost. I think it's about AirTran adding a single, measly DFW-BWI flight... oh, t
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