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Now That Westjet Is In The Acmi Business?  
User currently offlineAlohaguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3479 times:

Can you see in the foreseeable future, Westjet flying a same day return service between YVR - HNL through a charter travel company with 737-700/800's?

23 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWestJetYYZ From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3433 times:

Haven't heard anything more than rumors. Personally I'd love to see a service like that... even scheduled would be neat, let alone a charter. But who knows really? This company is full of surprises... I'm sure one day it will happen though. It seems like a logical/financially good destination.

User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Going to HNL would make a few headaches for the company - and Don Bell apparently mentioned that getting ETOPS certification for the aircraft for only one route would be a pain in the ass. I'm not versed on ETOPS or what it applies to, I thought it was simply extended-range.... but I'd guess he was referring to it in a sense of extended over-water operations...... as I said, it's one thing I'm not versed in.

I'm sure it's possible... but WestJetYYZ is correct - it seems to be only rumors and is thrown around during the "pep talks" (culture presentations, whatever they call them) to stir some excitement with new WS folks about where the company could go.

It's certainly possible, from YVR.... and only YVR. Flying a 737 out of, say, YYC to HNL would be ridiculously inefficient and would require the aircraft to fly at 70% capacity in order to meet the weight, balance and fuel burn requirements.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3387 times:

Hawaii has been a hot rumour in the past year and Clive Beddoe has said that Westjet will be going transborder within a year. Since Hawaii is part of the States, would that be considered transborder?


EH.
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3364 times:

Yes, it is considered transborder service to HNL from Canada... and, to be fair, HNL service has been a rumor in WS for a little while longer than a year.... I recall hearing it from folks inside the company since the first -700 was delivered, and the aircraft's longer range was expounded upon.

But with other carriers already offering YVR-HNL service, I'm curious to know if WS could make a successful entry into that market.... they tend to go for lesser-served markets and the so-called "low hanging fruit," in true LCC fashion. My guess is that the continental US would offer enough "low hanging fruit" for WestJet anyway, without having to endure the possible headaches of now offering extended-range operations over water, in order to fly to HNL.

Just a thought.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3356 times:

I don't really see what the big deal is about flying over water to Hawaii is. Aloha does it perfectly fine with the 737-700's they fly during the winter. With the inflight entertainment of PTV's and the addition of winglets (adding a tiny bit more distance) I think it might be a wise choice - hence the rumours.

Like I say about everything in the aviation world, only time will tell. Who knows, maybe Transat will charter them out to fly there!



EH.
User currently offlinePenguinflies From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Why do all that work when they could fly to Florida, Texas, California or Mexico to offer sunny desitnations at a lower cost to their passengers? Why do all the work for one flight over water (with the possibility of expanding to other flights).

User currently offlineCanadianNorth From Canada, joined Aug 2002, 3395 posts, RR: 9
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Well it sounds possible, but like I say, "In this business never believe anything untill you either see it on your paycheck or parked infront of you"

CanadianNorth



What could possibly go wrong?
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16365 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3337 times:

I don't really see what the big deal is about flying over water to Hawaii is. Aloha does it perfectly fine with the 737-700's they fly during the winter.

Aloha uses their 73G exclusively on ETOPS flights so it's worth their while to get ETOPS cert, unlike Westjet who currently have no ETOPS flights.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3327 times:

What does ETOPS mean anyway? I've heard it before, I'm just not familiar with what is does..


EH.
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Extended-range Twin-engine Operations.

Or jokingly referred to as... Engines Turning Or People Swimming.  Big grin

It usually refers to certification that a twin-engined aircraft... be it 737, 757, 767... can fly for extended periods unsupported - ie, over water. Opposed to extended flights over the continent (such as YVR-YYZ), ETOPS flights over water do not have alternate airports in case something goes wrong with the engines. An airline requires this certification in order to be able to fly for longer than a certain time (I'm not sure of the time or distance) over water.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineAlohaguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3310 times:

Sorry, but I am under the impression that ETOPS certification today is significantly less intrusive on the airline in question than what it was 15 years ago.

User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

Ah I see.. thanks Goose


EH.
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Intrusive or no, most carriers serving extended intercontinental flights (such as Zoom Airlines in Canada) still have gone through the steps of getting their ETOPS cert on their aircraft. I've usually seen it printed on the nose wheel door if it's ETOPs cert.


"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineAlohaguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Yes Goose, please do not get me wrong, it's a pretty PR thing when airlines put ETOPS opn the side of their metal. The suggestion is that I am under the impression the demands placed on carriers today for ETOPS have been relaxed for so many obvious reasons.

Gosh, for my first point, so very little U.S. 4 engine metal that fly over the Atlantic today.

Second would be the increasing from 120 alternate to 180 alternate several years ago.

Third is the culture climate of the "client" in question.



User currently offlineFallingeese From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2097 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3262 times:

I have heard the rumour before, and it may soon happen. One issue is that if an aircraft goes mechanical than what is there to do? If an engine breaks down, how does another one get out there. I know this problem has been solved in other locations by agreements with other carriers, similar to St. Maarten, which is a long ways from Canada Smile.


Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3253 times:

The route to St. Maarten is predominantly over land, as it flies over the Eastern seaboard of the US south to the Carribbean. ETOPS usually denotes extended periods over water only.


"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineFallingeese From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2097 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3249 times:

I'm not talking about the ETOPS issue, I'm talking about a completely different subject. If an aircraft goes mechanical half way around the world that is a big pain in Westjet's side. Another aircraft must be sent down south, and another one must be subbed in on it's Canadian routes.


Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
User currently offlineWjv04 From Canada, joined Jun 2001, 584 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3236 times:

Hey Guys,
So when WestJet annonces plans to fly transborder, why do they have to go to Florida or HNL? There gonna be going to SEA, MSP, DEN, LAX, Think about it....
Horizion flys to YYC-SEA directly with no compitition, UAL YYC-DEN would be comptitive for UAL, MSP is served outta YYC with NW, WestJet would make a killing flying to those destinations. Not charters
As for ETOP's I dont see a LLC getting a etops rating.
However those are my opinions, what do you guys think?


User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3200 times:

CanadaEH --Hawaii has been a hot rumour in the past year and Clive Beddoe has said that Westjet will be going transborder within a year. Since Hawaii is part of the States, would that be considered transborder?


Faraway-transborder, but still transborder!


I think it's within the realm of possibility. Hawaii's just another possible (and highly exotic) sun destination candidate , for wintertimes in the highly-cyclical Canadian air travel leisure market. And all of the Canadian low-cost carriers have generally quite young flight and cabin crews -- it's fun for them to "see the World" a bit in the course of just doing their jobs. Jetsgo flies to a bunch of sun destinations in the States and beyond, even little Canjet offering service to Florida.


But about the ETOPS issue (and cost factor): I agree it wouldn't make sense to pay for a couple or more planes to get the certification, just to go to Hawaii and back once a day or something , especially if it's just for wintertimes. However... how about if the plan is to get about a half-dozen or so planes certified , so as to be able to fly in a couple years' time... all the way to Europe?! WestJet's increasing its base in YHZ (Halifax) -- nonstops from Montréal start up in just a couple weeks`time -- and what if in two years or so during summertimes they were to offer flights like YYZ(or YUL)-YHZ-LHR, YYZ-YHZ-MAN, or to FRA, CDG, or any number of other places across the Pond. Okay yeah it`s more hassle than a nonstop but if they turned the plane around quickly at YHZ while refueling and offered hot prices (or even , gasp, perhaps some kind of frequent-flyer plan) then it may prove quite popular. Not to mention there`d be PTVs for everybody -- Air Canada doesn`t offer that one.


If they go through the trouble of certifying a bunch of their 73Gs for Europe, they sure as heck could use a few of them on during (non-summer-season) Hawaii runs --maybe YYZ (YUL)-YVR-HNL routings . While paring down European service for wintertimes, with the remainder . While the following summer it goes back the other way again as demand for Europe travel is higher.


Halifax Airport is even putting the finishing touches on a big expansion project (brand new arrivals area for both Int`l and domestic flights, new central concourse and retail area). So that part would only help as well.


User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3156 times:

Would a full PAX 737-700 be able to travel non-stop from YHZ to European cities?


EH.
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3127 times:

Europe is a big stretch. They'd be competing with American transatlantic carriers as well as Air Canada for business.... it's also very expensive for landing rights in some European cities for foreign carriers.

I think WestJet should stick to what they're good at - domestic service on the continent. They've never done long-distance international work, and really... they don't have to. Other people do that, not WestJet. There's enough business here on the continent without having to hire people in foreign countries and so on.

As I mentioned before, WestJet should and probably would go after "low hanging fruit" first, without having to go after destinations which would incur larger costs. We've discussed US transborder service before.... and that's certainly where it's at, after the company "connects the dots" and offers more frequency on its current route network here in Canada. Then, WestJet would be able to offer a accessable, affordable transborder product to its entire network..... which would be an effective competitor to Air Canada's transborder services.

That certainly makes business sense, rather than offering token or limited transborder service; Air Canada's bread and butter is transborder, and they're likely to fight tooth and nail for that market.... so WestJet has to make its moves so that they can see the higher loads quickly after introduction of US destinations, and also have a product that will appeal to the most people across the depth and breadth of the cities it serves in Canada already.

That makes sense to me. Service to HNL does not.... however, I wouldn't rule out charter service at all - that is, if the charter company is willing to pay for the ETOPS. More likely, though, a prospective charter looking to go to HNL would likely look for a larger aircraft with a company already with an ETOPS rating - TransAt, with their 310s and 330s, come to mind... or maybe even Zoom or HMY.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineCanadaEH From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 1341 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3117 times:

Good points, Goose. I personally I don't see Westjet flying to Europe, ever. It doesn't seem to fit with their business model. They are already a successful domestic carrier and once they build up their domestic network, transborder routes will follow. I feel that Westjet has what it takes to operate a successful transborder operation as well.

If you wanted to speculate.. Air Transat is already a fairly close "partner" - if you will - with Westjet (having just signed a charter deal). Westjet could feed domestic passengers into Transat flights, and international Transat passengers onto Westjet's.. With there being several LCC's in the States, one could also speculate a partnership between Westjet and one of the LCC's in the States.. Westjet passengers fly transborder and connect to other U.S. domestic flights via JetBlue? Southwest? Frontier? JetBlue has said they will fly to Canada soon so their passengers could connect to domestic flights via Westjet...

It may sound pretty, but its all SPECULATION! Just my 2 cents.



EH.
User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3114 times:

It's possible that WestJet could feed pax to, say, YVR for connections onto widebody TS aircraft, sure. It's feasable. The problem is that the aircraft would have to be chartered by TS holidays from point-to-point within Canada.... and I'm not sure if that's a part of the current agreement TS has with WestJet. It might involve entering a deeper, code-share agreement with TS, and I'm not sure if WestJet would really want to do that.

As for transborder.... I can see WestJet's most effective transborder strategy would be to introduce US destinations simultaneously with an American LCC introducing Canadian ones - and a cementing of an code-share alliance between the two, so that they can offer their customers the entirety of each others' destinations on both sides of the border. To me, Southwest seems the logical partner, given their history of support for WestJet and the close relationship and corporate "friendship" between the two, not to mention the identical fleet types (which would be important from a maintenance standpoint) the two share, and the extensiveness of the Southwest route network.

On the other hand, JetBlue and WestJet are close as well, at least because the founder of JetBlue is a former WestJet founder as well. Frontier is an interesting choice, as they already handle ground operations for WS' flights into US charter bases like LAS. Only time will tell what happens.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
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