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Messed Up European Immigrations  
User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5569 times:

Wow,

I have to say that Europe has a terriblre immigrations policy. I recently flew BCN-MAD on Iberia. Our flight had originated in Tel Aviv, but it was picking up passengers (myself included) in Barcelona. All passengers were told to deplane, those who were staying in Barcelona were ushered to Immigrations, those continuing on to Madrid were told to wait for reboarding in the lounge. It was clear from what I saw that NO effort was made to verify if those who went to the waiting area were actually telling the truth. One could easily say they were going to Madrid and just exit the airport free and clear. This illeagal entrant would now, thanks to the Schengen Treaty (sp??) have a free pass to the EU.

Here is where it gets worse:

Since the flight originated in Tel Aviv once it landed in Madrid, ALL passengers had to clear customs. Those with a Spanish ID card who claimed to have originated only in BCN showed that and were let past. But anyone of them could have showed their ID (that was NOT inspected) and lied about their point of origin and gain access to Spain.

And to to it off:

I was initially denied "entry" into Spain because I had no passport. I tried explaining that a) my passport (US) was in my checked baggs and b) I had originated in Barelona and had entered Spain a whole 30 days before. Still I was not allowed to enter a country I was already in untill I requested a supervisor, then they just let me pass.

What the hell is going on with the Europeans???

I'm typing fast... sorry for spelling errors.

[Edited 2003-09-07 16:24:04]

62 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEWRvirgin From United States of America, joined May 2001, 358 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5511 times:

As strange an experience as this was why would you pack your passort in a checked bag?

User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5493 times:

I was only on a 2 day trip to Barcelona from Madrid, I put my passport in my backpack, the only bag I had... once I got to the airport it decided to check it because it was very heavy. I knew the passport was there, but it was on the bottom, so I just left it there. I never thought I would need it on a domestic flight....

User currently offlineNikibary From United States of America, joined May 2003, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 5479 times:

Nice to see a US member complain about immigrations in Europe...


User currently offlineRJ100 From Switzerland, joined Nov 2000, 4126 posts, RR: 29
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5451 times:

I don't want to offend our American friends on this forum but here you see what happens to us Europeans every time we want to access the States...

Regards,
RJ100



none
User currently offlineEdina From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 747 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5444 times:

I'd say you were pretty lucky to have come across decent immigration/security staff as most countries in the EU (except the UK & I think the Scandinavian countries) require everyone to be in possesion of a valid ID card wherever they are, travelling or not. So, as a non-EU citizen that means carrying your passport on you (driving licences aren't valid I'm afraid:-( ). Police in some countries over here take a dim view of not having
a valid ID on you even if you're a citizen of that country. Same goes for me in the US......my UK driving licence isn't accepted in a bar in the US as picture ID, whereas my passport is.



Worked on - Caravelle Mercure A300 A320 F27 SD3-60 BAe146 747-100/200/400 DC10-30 767 777 737-400 757 A319 A321
User currently offlineCV990 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 5398 times:

Hi!

What did you expect if you didn't showed your passport? If I come to USA and say that I have my passport in the baggage the BEST chance I get is probably they'll let me try to find out, otherwise they'll ask you to get the next plane ( I'm saying "ask you" not to use the word "force you"...... ) back to were you came!!! Please don't use that as a self frustration, I've seen people trying to get in the USA beeing completely knock out!!! I remember once a girl that had a syrian visa in their passport and the US authorities almost did like a inquisition to her!!!!!
If there is a place were passengers can really have a bad time is USA, not Europe. As long as you have a ID card you're in!!! I use my portuguese ID around Europe and no problem, why can't I use it in USA, it as a photo, it's written in english, it as my digital impression on that and even though it's useless!!!
A few months ago I went to a DMV department to get my drivers license, I forgot my passport but I had two documents with my photo in it, my portuguese drivers license and my portuguese ID, well I had to go back!!!! Now you tell me how is more picky, the US or Europe!
regards


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5379 times:

Flyboy36y,

As a Belgian I do not need to show my passport ever to Belgian immigration, provided that I can show my ID card. It does not matter wether I arrive from inside or outside Europe. No questions asked as long as the ID is valid, same goes for any other EU member holding a valid ID card from a EU country. That includes Spanish citizens arriving into MAD or BCN from TLV. So nothing wrong their.

Arriving from BCN into MAD does not require any identification, since it's a domestic flight, arriving from any Shengen country into another Shengen country does not require any identification. As long as the flight you're arriving on originated in a Shengen country. Your flight originated in TLV, not in BCN, that's were YOU originated. Immigrations can not decide wether you lied about your point of origin or not, that's why you had to show a valid passport (and not an ID since the USA is not a Shengen country), you could have lied about your port of embarkation, remember you were thinking the same about those Spanish getting trough immigration with their SPANISH ID cards.

Spanish immigration did a perfect job, there is no reason at all to complain. Next time keep your passport with you. Your checked bags are the most stupid places to keep your passport, imagine what would have happened if your bags went lost. Sampling the airport jail perhaps.



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineTeahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5310 posts, RR: 61
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5349 times:

Sorry but I'm lost:

***
Since the flight originated in Tel Aviv once it landed in Madrid, ALL passengers had to clear customs. Those with a Spanish ID card who claimed to have originated only in BCN showed that and were let past. But anyone of them could have showed their ID (that was NOT inspected) and lied about their point of origin and gain access to Spain.

***

A national ID is enough for for a Spanish person arriving from outside the EU.

***
I was initially denied "entry" into Spain because I had no passport. I tried explaining that a) my passport (US) was in my checked baggs and b) Still I was not allowed to enter a country

***

Well that's quite clearly your own fault.

Jeremiah

[Edited 2003-09-07 17:56:39]


Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5309 times:

Okay... you people don't understand....

I was flying BCN-MAD. I had not been to TLV. I purchased a domestic ticket. The plane itself had started in Tel Aviv. I had already been in Spain for 30 days. I was NOT, I repeat, NOT in Tel Aviv. I took a weekend trip from Madrid, where I was studying at the time to Barcelona. The plane was routed as one flight number TLV-BCN-MAD. I originated in Barcelona. But, in the EU, people must mass customs at the final arrival point, not initial entry point. I was on a DOMESTIC flight. I had not been out of Spain. Is that CLEAR????


User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5299 times:

In case you want to know... my flying was as such.

JFK-MIA-MAD-BCN-MAD-MIA-JFK.....

Note... NO TEL AVIV. The trip to BCN was totally domestic.... why would I need my Passport on a domestic flight???


User currently offlineNikibary From United States of America, joined May 2003, 85 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5290 times:

im still a bit lost, how could they have denied you the entry into the country when you just took a domestic flight? or were you just transfering?

User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5288 times:

As long as the flight you're arriving on originated in a Shengen country. Your flight originated in TLV, not in BCN, that's were YOU originated. Immigrations can not decide wether you lied about your point of origin or not, that's why you had to show a valid passport (and not an ID since the USA is not a Shengen country), you could have lied about your port of embarkation, remember you were thinking the same about those Spanish getting trough immigration with their SPANISH ID cards

Flyboy, there is your answer.

Yes, you were flying purely domestically, but it's not whether YOU were flying domestically, it's whether your FLIGHT was flying a purely domestic service. It wasn't, it was ultimately an international flight, so even though you didn't fly the international portion, your flight was classed as an international arrival in Madrid, thus you needed a passport or ID.

My advice to anyone would be to always keep relevant ID with them at all times.


User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1822 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5280 times:

"It was clear from what I saw that NO effort was made to verify if those who went to the waiting area were actually telling the truth. One could easily say they were going to Madrid and just exit the airport free and clear".

No Flyboy36y, it is not as easy as that!

Usually, when the plane arrives from a destination outside the schenegan territories, it is parked in a gate in a designated non-schenegan lounge. There is always a passport control desk between these lounges and the rest of the airport. So it will not be possible for any illegal immigrant to come in without being checked.
at least this is how it works in AMS, FRA and CDG.



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5270 times:

Jacob, all I can say is that you were damn stupid not to carry your passport on your person at all times. If an alien had tried that in the US and had been stopped for whatever reason, they would have been shipped off home (or worse still to Gitmo) before you could say "call my embassy".

User currently offlineStaffan From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5239 times:

Fly domestic with Iberia next time, you won't have that problem.

Staffan


User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5230 times:

Fly domestic with Iberia next time, you won't have that problem.

I was on Iberia

im still a bit lost, how could they have denied you the entry into the country when you just took a domestic flight? or were you just transfering?

I was not transferring planes. Its ewhat confused me. Itsa just how they do it in Europe I guess.


User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5221 times:

Jacob, all I can say is that you were damn stupid not to carry your passport on your person at all times. If an alien had tried that in the US and had been stopped for whatever reason, they would have been shipped off home (or worse still to Gitmo) before you could say "call my embassy".

In the US one would not be inspected by immigrations after a domesticflight.


User currently offlineRojo From Spain, joined Sep 2000, 2481 posts, RR: 9
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5224 times:

The problem here is how IB manages flights between MAD-BCN-MAD . They have different flight numbers with different meanings. Generally, IB6XXX are flights with an intercontinental flight number flown on small equipment (A320, M80 or B757) that will connect passengers or take connecting passengers to/from an A340 or B747. For example, you can buy a ticket from Mexico City to Barcelona on a direct flight with only one coupon and with a stop in Madrid:

ON 08SEP03 MEXICO CITY /BARCELONA *IB
1 MEX1BCN 08/2040#1710 IB6402 F5 A5 J9 D9 I9 Y4 B4 H4 K4#EQV B

The truth here is that you won't be flying on the same aircraft, since the flight between MEX and MAD is an A340 and then you will have to connect to a flight with the same number (IB6402) but with a different aircraft (A320). The problem here is that in order to fill the A320, IB sells tickets on the domestic market for this flight. People flying to BCN from MAD on IB6402 will have to depart from the international terminal (domestic flight) and since the aircraft has passenger that come from Mexico City it will have to arrive in the international terminal in Barcelona, making all passengers go through immigration and customs.

My advice is that next time you make sure your ticket is booked on a domestic IB flight code between MAD-BCN-MAD (ask your travel agent or IB staff) or avoid IB and fly JK or UX. IB does this on the shuttle service so they can offer international passengers one stop flights to BCN or MAD and in the mean time, get domestic customers and be more profitable. In my experience, IB has never told me or my friends who have flown between this two cities that we will have to depart from the international terminal, so you have to figure out by yourself when you arrive at the airport (if it is your first time on one of the four digit MAD-BCN-MAD flights)...


User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5212 times:

Sure Rojo, we could all do that...on the other hand, we could just remember to have ID, and relax.  Big grin

User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5208 times:

Rojo,

Exactly! In facy, in BCN I first went to the wrong terminal. I went to the Puent Aero BCN-MAD terminal, but was told my flight was leaving from a regular terminal. What a pain in the ass....


User currently offlineFlyboy36y From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 3039 posts, RR: 7
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 5200 times:

Sure Rojo, we could all do that...on the other hand, we could just remember to have ID, and relax.

I had ID and a copy of my passport.


User currently offlineZSSNC From Germany, joined Feb 2003, 428 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5197 times:

Rojo,

if passengers from a MEX/MAD flight have to transfer onto a MAD/BCN flight why does IB make that flight an international flight then? It would be so much easier if all the incoming passengers from MEX had to clear immigration at the first point of entry (in this case MAD). Other airlines can do it (e.g. UA offers a FRA/ORD/MSP flight with the same flight number but an aircraft change in ORD and all passengers from FRA have to clear immigration in ORD).

I think what you endured, Flyboy, is much more the fault of IB than that of EU immigration.

ZSSNC - the longest temptation in the sky



Airbus A340-600 - the longest temptation in the sky
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5186 times:

Something about this story doesn't smell right. If you had ID and a copy of your passport, there is no question that you were legally in Spain and you could not have been "denied entry" as you said in the first post.

User currently offlineTriStar500 From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 4696 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 months 2 weeks ago) and read 5159 times:

Rojo,
Thanks four your explanation! I was flying BCN-MAD a few years ago and was somewhat confused when I had to pass through immigration upon arrival in MAD from a domestic flight.

No information by IB about this ratherunusual procedure at check-in, however, I didn't get into any trouble because I had my ID with me (like any adult should when travelling IMHO).



Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
25 DoorsToManual : Flyboy, from the information I received on this thread, ID would not have been enough, since you are not a Spanish citizen, or citizen of a Schengen (
26 Danialanwar : It's the same all over the world ... the domestic leg of an international flight is considered an international flight UNLESS they make all pax clear
27 Varig md-11 : Hi when I go to the states I am always freaking out about being rejected at immigration though there is no reason....you're complaining that our syste
28 Rojo : IB's shuttle between MAD-BCN-MAD is quite confusing for many people and once it was confusing to me too. It was a surprise for me the first time that
29 DoorsToManual : the intra EU flight is no excuse since as mentionned before, most EU countries require and ID whether you're flying, driving, or walking ( for US citi
30 Varig md-11 : DoorsToManual I said MOST EU members....the UK citizens of course don't have an ID card (maybe some other country don't either) so they should show th
31 Teva : The reason customs did believe you , when you said you boarded in BCN, is very simple: intra-european (including domestic) luggage tags are green. The
32 Varig md-11 : "Another thing is that it is very unkikely tat terrorist will fly from TLV to spain. Maybe that's why people at BCN and MAD didn't really care about t
33 Rojo : DoorsToManual: From what I know, European Union countries accept that citizens of EU countries use their national ID cards to get into their territory
34 DoorsToManual : From what I know, European Union countries accept that citizens of EU countries use their national ID cards to get into their territory no matter if t
35 Rojo : Ooopss!! My mistake, problem fixed...
36 Varig md-11 : sorry if I took fro granted everybody knew we, EU citizens except UK, didn't need a passport to travel into the EU. Rojo you're absolutely right; the
37 Jacques60 : Varig MD11, Absolutely right : even more in France a passport is a "travel" document and not considered as any proof of nationality ! Only our "carte
38 Manni : Teva, You're right about the color of the luggage tags for intra EU flights (not for all Europe). However, I've not seen any airport yet where you pic
39 Stefandotde : "What the hell is going on with the Europeans?" When I am flying within europe, there is no custom, there is no passport-control. What about flights f
40 Flyboy36y : You don't need it in the US? Am sure you need it. In the USA there is no requierment to carry an ID on you.
41 Ramme : Doh... who would ever put a passport in *CHECKED* luggage for crying out loud...? Keep your passport *ALWAYS* with you, dude.
42 La Carlota : Rojo is right. It's a mess how IB handles their BCN-MAD flights, with planes coming to BCN from the M. East, taking pax and continuing to MAD. Or tak
43 ModernArt : If Iberia would have lost your bag, than what? Your casual attitude with regards to your passport...is strange to say the least.
44 B747-437B : In the USA there is no requierment to carry an ID on you. Bullshit. All aliens in the US are REQUIRED to carry their ORIGINAL passport and valid form
45 Rojo : B747-437B: Bullshit. All aliens in the US are REQUIRED to carry their ORIGINAL passport and valid form I-94 (or equivalent) ON THEIR PERSON at ALL TIM
46 Flyboy36y : In the USA there is no requierment to carry an ID on you. Bullshit. All aliens in the US are REQUIRED to carry their ORIGINAL passport and valid form
47 Manairport : Not all citizens of the EU are required to carry ID. As a British citizen (and consequently an EU citizen) I am NOT required to carry ID on me at all
48 Captaink : Re someone said if this was to happen in the US you would be deported? Eg.. US 1476 BGI/PHL/LGA If a passenger boards this flight and their final dest
49 JGPH1A : I am a UK citizen too, but carry a French carte de sejour ID because I live in France. I say "carry" - it lives in my wallet. Nobody in the 2 years I'
50 Airbazar : You don't need it in the US? Am sure you need it. In the USA there is no requierment to carry an ID on you. There is when you fly, and that's what we'
51 B747-437B : Can you explain me how am I supposed to carry my passport ALL the TIME in the US if I'm not required to present a passport at immigration controls in
52 Mandala499 : Whenever I fly in another country, I always carry my passport with me regardless of it being a domestic or international flight. The reason is, what i
53 Post contains images Joge : So we Europeans are "stupid" because you checked your bag with the passport inside?
54 Rojo : B747-437B: So now I don't understand. In one of your previous post you said: Bullshit. All aliens in the US are REQUIRED to carry their ORIGINAL passp
55 Copenhagenboy : I have not been reading all, but sure when traveling, even in the Schengen area, as a Dane I am told to have my passport at me, because it is the best
56 Post contains images DoorsToManual : Maybe one day the whole world will agree to just 1 form of universal ID!
57 Post contains images B747-437B : I guess you are using the word THEM refering to both Jeez, talk about semantics! The word "THEM" was used in an either/or/and context. The sentence wa
58 FRALIM : One question Flyboy36y: what did the guys at the passport controll say when they denied entry? I mean when entry is denied you are usually sent back t
59 Flyboy36y : Sorry.... i wasn't officially denied entry. I was hasseled fot 2-5 minutes. I did NOT go through passport controll in BCN.
60 Docpepz : Hmm interesting I have a very different view of European immigration. I have been living in France for 4 months and will continue to do so till Jan. T
61 JGPH1A : My theory is that the French Immigration authority used an advanced form of passenger profiling known as "skin colour" to determine who's passport the
62 B747-437B : I would prefer it if they stamped my passport each time I left and entered the Schengen area. You can always request this. Tell them you need to show
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