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Unconventional Business Class Cabin - KLM 747-400  
User currently offline777MAS From Malaysia, joined Sep 2003, 197 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13565 times:

I came across the following photos of the inside of a KLM 747-400:


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Photo © George Polfliet
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Photo © Andy Smulders



If you look carefully at the photo on the left, you can tell the galley isn't aligned ACROSS the cabin, but rather, ALONG it.

The description of the photo on the right is "The World Business Class next to the kitchen". So it appears KL "splits" the front portion of the 744 (main deck) into a kitchen and a cabin (that becomes "narrow/tube-like" as a result of the split). And they squeeze 4 seats into a 1/2-wide cabin, whereas the normal cabin nowadays have 7 abreast.

Any advantage in splitting it like this, compared to the conventional arrangement?

28 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineTNboy From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 1131 posts, RR: 19
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13502 times:

Thai does the same thing on the lower deck, in the Business Class section behind First Class. I don't know if the split is exactly half way or whether the seating area is a bit wider than half. The seats are normal width Business Class, so I don't think you lose any width on Thai at least. Someone can probably tell you exactly.
Cheers
Bill



"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
User currently offlineTNboy From Australia, joined Mar 2002, 1131 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 13492 times:

Just checked out the Thai 744 seating plan, and the Business Class section is well over half the width of the cabin - almost two thirds, with the galley area taking up the remainder, and hidden behind a wall as with KLM. So on Thai there is no impact on the seating comfort compared with the other Business Class seating. Sorry, should have done this before posting the above message.
Cheers
Bill



"...every aircraft is subtly different.."
User currently offlineKilavoud From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 13390 times:

The wall without windows on the left is itensifying the impression of narrowness, same the colour of the seats. It looks strange, an impression that something is missing or has been cut. I would feel unhappy seating near this white and severe wall without anything on it. LH, I love you more, your business class is great.

User currently offlineCodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 13371 times:

This cabin layout is simply bad. However, it's probably more comfortable for the F/As.

I wouldn't like to have a seat next to the wall.



How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
User currently offlineA330341 From Australia, joined Jul 2003, 48 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 13052 times:

Garuda also has the same business class cabin layout with KLM in their 744 if I'm not mistaken, they have the long galley (kitchen) between the R1 and R2 door and they also deleted the windows along this side of the cabin.

User currently offlineMeechy36 From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 312 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12959 times:

That is called a Longitudinal(sp?) Galley. It came to be on the 747SP. I have an old Pan Am SP floor plan and it went from the first to second doors on aircraft right. It served both First and Clipper Class. As a flight attendant it looks like it would be nice to work in but it seems to take up an awful lot of space.

Mike-BOS


User currently offlineSpk From Thailand, joined Jun 2001, 458 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12875 times:

Flew on THAI's 747 in business class. The seating comfort is not affected by this galley layout at all. The aisle is extra-wide, too. The seat arrangement is 2-2 which beats the usual 2-3-3 hands down.

THAI F/A's love the big galley.


User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 12818 times:

This galley arrangement is not all that unusual in the 747, several airlines, including KLM as mentioned above, use it (or different varaiations on the theme, I think some QF 747s had an "L" shaped galley) and the flight attendants, according to rumor, like it. The large galley provides a good amount of space to work in, which is important on long-haul flights where F and J class meals can be a bit complicated, its easy to set up carts for serving in the larger galley, provides lots of storage, and I guess is also a good place for F/A s to hang out (hide) during long flights. This arrangement does not take up very much more space, since the galley between cabin 2 and 3 on the 747 (which ususally serves J class and sometimes a portion of Y class) can be reduced in size.

The passenger cabin "on the other side of the galley" works better than it looks - on KLM flights its one of the quietest places on the aircraft with little aisle traffic and due to its reduced width, it somehow "feels like" the upper deck on the 747. Being next to the wall is not a big deal, on most very long haul flights, part of the flight is at night and during the day, passengers close the shades to get a look at the IFE.

Interesting note, on some flights, where there are not many J class passengers and Y is full or oversold, KLM will use this cabin for Y class passengers.....they attempt to put Economy Class Frequent Flyers into this cabin (I have lucked out a couple of times) but some passengers are just assigned into these seats by luck.


User currently offlineETA Unknown From Comoros, joined Jun 2001, 2073 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12660 times:

I got lucky flying LAX-HNL on a NZ 747 leased from TG a few years ago.
"Zone B" business class seats were sold as economy and I can confirm, in reality, that area is much more comfortable than the above photo suggests- the wall doesn't bother you.
<
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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Carrizo

>

[Edited 2003-09-13 21:36:46]

User currently offlineUN_B732 From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 4289 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 12570 times:

The 743 has 3x3 economy in that section.
-UN



What now?
User currently offlineMarco_polo From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 324 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 12450 times:

I don't see anything unsual about this type of arrangement. J-Class is quite comfortable and private in this type of configuration. KL has this type of configuration since the first B74 delivery and so as Thai and many others that was already mentioned. This type of gallery layout is very effective in servicing both forward Economy, Business, and First Class.

Cheers - Jay


User currently offlineHkg_clk From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 999 posts, RR: 2
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 12299 times:

I've been seated in that cabin on TG once before, and it did look strange. The aisle was very wide, but it still felt dark and a bit claustrophobic. Thai's very basic business class seat doesn't help either.

hkg_clk
www.hkplanes.com


[Edited 2003-09-14 03:31:07]


See my homepage for a comprehensive guide to spotting and photography at HKG
User currently offline9V-SPK From Hong Kong, joined Aug 2001, 1646 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 12130 times:

SQ used to have rows 6 and 7 for the F class on their Big Tops, where seats were behind the 1st door on the right hand side of the plane, 2 seats in each row. The Raffles Class seats were on the left hand of the plane, but there were only 2 seats in each row too, , which doesn't affect much. The gallery is between the 2 cabins, and I'd have to say that this configuration is better, since no seats facing the wall, and that passengers get more privacy too (Especially in Business Class). Although the seats in F were wider, but the aisle was actually wider than the one in Business Class!

Best Regards




User currently offlineTravellin'man From United States of America, joined May 2001, 530 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 12056 times:

I flew once in economy in such a seating plan on KLM from LAX to AMS about 7-8 years ago (maybe it was a 743 combi?). I was smushed up against the wall, pinned in by an old guy who had had a stroke and couldn't get out of his seat for me to get up and use the facilities without a flight attendant (and me) helping hoist the poor guy. It was one of my worst flights, and one of the reasons I started flying UA/LH instead for transatlantic. As Hkg_clk points out, it is the most claustrophobic experience ever.


It is not enough to be rude; one must also be incorrect.
User currently offlineHkg_clk From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 999 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 11986 times:

Yes, I actually noticed that funny cabin in an SQ 743 once! I was in economy, but when I walked passed the biz/first section during boarding/disembarking, it was really confusing as there were so many partitiona. It didn't look nice at all.


See my homepage for a comprehensive guide to spotting and photography at HKG
User currently offlineKeesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 11818 times:

People who have really flown in this cabin know ..

that seat pitch is very royal in here 60 inch or more, so no reason to be claustrofobic ...

and the seat is not placed against the wall but there is about 7-10 inch which is very convinient to place a bag with your stuff during the flight ...no complains from me (and other experiences travelers) here.

Always a pleasure to fly the (relative to AF, BA, LH & SAS) roomey KLM World Business Class ..

Lately saw economy class seats in 744´s in this zone, does it still exist here ?

Curious to know how the new B777 WBC will look...


User currently onlineB747-4U3 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2002, 990 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 11726 times:

My mum used to fly on BCal who used this arrangment on their 747s to Tokyo and New York.

From what I hear, it was not favourable with the crew as the crew rest seats were located at the end of the galley, and thus, they were not able to get some good rest.


User currently offlineTriple Seven From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 530 posts, RR: 1
Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11614 times:

I flew on PH-BFI (City of Jakarta) from AMS-KUL in the World Business Class in 2001. The photo do give the impression of congestion, however, the reverse is true. Even with the wall on my right (I sat next to the wall) it didn't bother me one bit. Being there in person, it actually looks and feel a lot bigger than what the photo potrayed.



User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 11578 times:

The wall without windows on the left is itensifying the impression of narrowness

Agreed. While a middle aisle seat is sometimes tolerable... having a blank wall next to me for XX hours would be completely unacceptable.


User currently offlineVermeer From United States of America, joined May 2000, 447 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 11496 times:

I flew the same configuration on SAA 743's both from FRA and CDG.
The area is really quiet and comfortable, and as stated in the previous posts, there is a lot of room between the seat and the wall.
Furthermore, those flights were at night and it's not disturbing at all not to have windows because people do sleep.
On the other hand it is fun to spend some time in the starboard where the galleys are sooooo long and full of yummy goodies all along the flight!


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 11341 times:

SA used the same config on their 74L's too - at one point they had a very odd config - Blue Diamond up in the nose, then Silver (Economy) in the bit next to the galley 3 x 3, then Gold Class (Business) in the Upper Deck, and 4 or five rows 2 x 4 x 2 on the lower deck, then more Silver class. I don't know how long that lasted, but it was changed to that Gold Class was on the upper deck and in the area by the galley.

User currently offlineLy334 From Israel, joined Apr 2002, 292 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 11177 times:

I already flew in this cabin together with my wife on a AMS-LAX flight for 11.15hrs.
We sat on the 2seats newr the wall, it was a great flight and I didnt feel anything clostrophobic.


ly334



All my toughts are in aviation!!!
User currently offlineCaribb From Canada, joined Nov 1999, 1637 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 11101 times:

I flew YUL-AMS (747-300) in economy with this narrowed configuration. I was next to the window and remarked the smaller space actually made the flight more enjoyable.. It became an intimate space amongst a large crpwded aircraft.. kinda neat actually.

User currently offlineJafa From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 782 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 10979 times:

I think KLM chose this configuration becasue some of its aircraft are combi aricraft. That is the passenger cabin takes up half of the main deck with the other half carrying cargo. The galley was placed up front, becaause the main galley is at door four on most 747's. That space is taken up by cargo on combi aircraft. To keep things consistent in the fleet that arrangment is used on all 747's.

25 Vimanav : I've had the experience of flying in that section on a TG B747. It was not exactly uncomfortable but it definitely felt weird to have a wall next to y
26 Spk : I did not have any problem with the wall when flying on TG 744 because most of their long-haul flights are night flights anyway. It's the old cramped
27 Jrebel : "Lately saw economy class seats in 744´s in this zone, does it still exist here ?. No, it doesn't. The C class cabin as shown in the picture no longe
28 Post contains images Cedarjet : Garuda do the same thing. See how zone B is completely blanked out on the starboard side?
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