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What's More Important 707 Or Concorde?  
User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4585 times:

I thought of this question since this year is the 100th anniversary of the Wright brothers first flight, and sadly the last year of the Concord. I know many might say Concord, since it is so very fascinating. However I feel that the 707 was more important. The reason is, as fascinating as Concord is, very few people have been able to fly on Concorde. Plus, due to cost and many other reasons, it is not likely people will be able to fly past the speed of sound after Concorde is retired. However, when the 707 was first introduced in 1958 (I could be wrong about the year) it was the first successful jetliner that could fly passenger service. More importantly it could fly transatlantic and transpacific flights in record time. Because of that, airlines such as Pan Am, TWA, American Airlines, BOAC (I think), and many others were able to introduce airline travel to people who either did not have the time for longer flights on propeller planes, or could not afford the airfare. By the way I know the British actually came out with a jet plane before the 707, however for safety reasons it was not successful.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff

[Edited 2003-09-23 00:49:11]


God bless through Jesus, Jeff
71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBrons2 From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 3017 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4543 times:

The DC-3 was more important.

It was the first plane that ever made any airline ANY money flying passengers.



Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4545 times:

Anyhow, that is just my opinion. I would love to read other's opinions.


God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineFlyf15 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4530 times:

The 707. All the Concorde really did for the future of aviation was something to look pretty for history books.

User currently offlineRickb From United Kingdom, joined May 2003, 243 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4515 times:

Concorde - the 707 was not the first jetliner and had many compatriots at the time including the convairs and DC8 not forgetting the Comet, VC10, etc. The 707 was a very good aircraft but it did not redefine air travel (as did the Comet and the 747).

Concorde was groundbreaking at a number of levels and set performance standards that even today military aircraft can't match.

RickB


User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 4512 times:

http://www.avroland.ca/al-c102.shtml

The Avro Jetliner was before the 707 as well, and a slight bit less than two weeks behind the Comet.

As for importance.... I'd say that the 707 ushered in the "modern" jet age, as well as a new design philosophy for airliners. But in terms of importance? If you're going to stick to commercial aviation, I'd agree that the most important aircraft would be the DC-3; it was one of the first "true" airliners, and the airframe also has the distinction outside the commercial sector, of being insturmental in helping to win the Second World War. No other airframe has lasted longer in service, civil or military, and its usefulness still is shown today.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4504 times:

Thank you Goose and Brons2,

I did not even think of the DC-3.



God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineIslandHopper From United States of America, joined Feb 2003, 327 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4491 times:

The Concorde was a fuzzy reach into the edge of science, much as our space shuttles are. Both cost their respective governments billions of their citizens money. If you are a scientist or engineer, they were amazing achievements and a triumph of the human mind and worth every penny.

If you are Joe Average, Concorde was just pie in the sky and an example of how governments waste our money.

The 707 brought fast air transport to the masses, and thus is the more important achievement. Don't get me wrong, I love Concorde and am amazed by it, but was it a good use of British & French taxpayer's money? NO WAY!!!

God bless you too, Jeff.


User currently offlineElwood64151 From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 2477 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4463 times:

Rickb:

I have to disagree with you. Like the DC-3 in 1935, the 707 was the first large, long-range, highly profitable aircraft of its kind. The Comet was a fairly low-capactiy aircraft, and the VC-10 and others were not as profitable for the airlines that flew them or for the manufacturers.

The 707 was the first modern jetliner. It was the beginning of a line of commercial aircraft that have collectively changed the course of aviation history and the way the business of air travel is done in general.

Concorde has been an interesting experiment, but it's hardly revolutionary. If it had made money, maybe. Really, the only significant impact the Concorde has had was to ensure that no US-produced SSTs would ever be produced, cue to the massive but unfounded outcry against sonic booms.

707 by far.



Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
User currently offlinePsa53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3095 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4457 times:

Hands down! 707
Made the planet smaller and faster to access!
We also learned the bad with noise, pollution, airport
operations and traffic. But was the first of mass
expansion of all aspects of live.

Thanks Pan Am!



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineRickb From United Kingdom, joined May 2003, 243 posts, RR: 9
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4459 times:

Islandhopper,

The problem with the 707 is that it was in no way groundbreaking - it did exactly what it said in the tin - nothing more. Was it a successful aircraft - most definately - but was it important - not really - if Boeing hadn't of made it there where other aircraft that would of taken its place (those listed earlier) however Concorde is important - it was the forebear for Airbus - it proved that multi-nation projects could work, it introduced a number of technologies which have filtered down (carbon brake disks, anti lock, fly by wire, etc) it was also unique since the Tu144 never actually worked correctly.

RickB



User currently offlineTavong From Colombia, joined Jul 2001, 836 posts, RR: 4
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4404 times:

BEFORE YOU READ DON'T TAKE THIS LIKE PRO-BOEING OR ANTI-AIRBUS PROPAGANDA IN ORDER TO DON'T MAKE THIS ANOTHER A vs B THEREAD  Smile


Well if you put me to select from 707 or Concorde and it's role in aviation industry i choose 707; Concorde was an ecellent plane in terms of tchnological achievement but also was an example of the misinterpretation of the economy and the markets, B707 was there and used the technology properly, it may not be the first jetliner (Comet was) but it learned from Comet failures and was the first succesfull jetliner, in fact i helped a lot on changing the way the fligths where made, even the Comet was at the times where only richest people where able to fly (and well in sort of terms Concorde was at the same thread) and 707 helped to change that into we see at this times followed and stregthen by the 747, and Douglas used the B707 mistakes to made DC-8 another wonderfull plane unfortunately B707 also helped to bury out other planes like Comet-IV, and VC-10 (what a plane!!!!) but anyway B707 helped airline JET industry to grow and became what they are at this time.

Anyway if you see further back in history there are a lot planes that helped airline industry to grow, how forget the old Junkers, Dornier Wal,Vega, Ford Trimotor, Martins, DC-3, B-247, DC-4, DC-6,B377, Lokheed electra, Hawkers, Fokkers and only God knows how many developers and planes i forgot in this list but all of them helped equally in making this indistry like it's now? In fact it's not who made more and what every indostry helped and all these planes and industries taugth us several lessons that shouldn't be forgotten and that helped to grow Boeing and Airbus and all the others no matter what's your favorite and at this time every industry is learning and learing from themselves and from others no matter if Boeing or Airbus and this thread will continue has long has the planes exists but anyway and keeping this thread and has i stated up here my vote goes for B707 Big grin



Colombian coffee, the best...take a cup and you will see how delicious it is.
User currently offlineUSAir330 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 830 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4380 times:

I'd say the 707! What other jetliner did a barrow roll that didn't end up an accident?

User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2478 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4360 times:

Rickb, the 707 most certainly WAS groundbreaking-maybe it wasn't the first jetliner but it drove the revolution to jet travel at a pace unmatched by the other early models listed. Comet was the first but the crashes of its' early models relegated it to a far less significant place in history. The VC-10 also didn't sell in numbers anywhere near the 707. The DC-8 was on the drawing board but it took Boeing's committment to kick Douglas-comfortable with piston-engine airliners-in the pants and get moving with it. Convair was VERY late to the jetliner party and paid the price in truncated production of both the CV880 and CV990. The 707's KC-135 military version revolutionized aerial refueling, bringing tankers as fast as jet bombers to the skies. The 707 begat a number of derivative jetliners which to some extent (737NG and 757), continue in production today. I don't dispute that Concorde was far more revolutionary in terms of performance and due to the international partnership that paved the way for Airbus as you said, however the SST does not rival the 707 in significance for what it did for commercial aviation. In addition to being the aircraft mainly responsible for ushering in the jet age, the 707 also paved the way for the even more significant 747 which wouldn't have happened but for the 707's success. As magnificent as Concorde is-and now having flown it I can say that with true conviction-it was still an evolutionary deadend due to a number of unfortunate realities and didn't transform the industry to the extent that the 707 did, sad as it may be to say that. I think almost any aviation historian would agree with me on this.

User currently offlineUal777contrail From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4333 times:

The 707 was by far more important than the novelty Concorde.
The 707 brought us mass transit in the sky's and at a very low price compared to the Concorde.

the 707 was a work horse, the Concorde was a shiny new toy out of reach for millions of people.


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UAL 720 CONTRAIL


User currently offlineBd1959 From Australia, joined Oct 2002, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4311 times:

Sorry folks, but as an (ex) European my slant on this is totally different. As a "Joe Average" (as our Amercan bretheren seem to call us working-class folks) the 707 was about as accessible as the Concorde. Different eras, but people like myself just could not afford to travel trans-continental which the 707 only flew.

Things changed in the 70s with the impact felt both with the 747 (for long haul scheduled) and the 737 (short haul charters) - the 727 had led the way with charter companies such as Dan Air, but it was really only the 74 and 73 families which had such an "important" impact on people such as me.

Was it so very different in the US? Did the 707 fly trans-US or trunk US routes to such an extent that capacity brought fares within the reach of average Americans? - Because it was the (over) capacity brought by the 747 and 737 which really allowed fares to come down into my sort of budget.

BD1959



User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4283 times:

BD1959,

I am not sure about the 60's, but when I first started to fly in the 70's I flew from Washington D.C. to Phoenix on both TWA and American Airlines. On that route both airlines at that time flew 707's almost exclusively. I am not sure what other routes both airlines used the 707 from Washington for, but IAD had a lot of 707's in the 1970's.

Thank you IslandHopper

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff



God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineBd1959 From Australia, joined Oct 2002, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4261 times:

Thanks Jeff,

That was a sincere question - and I was pretty sure that 707s must have been used in the US for trunk routes in the 60s - one question though, how would the fares have stacked up against train/greyhound travel? Would fares have been within reach of "ordinary folks" - as I said before, it was only the intro of the 74s and 73s ex UK which brought down fares enough to enable people like me to fly.

Thanks,

BD1959


User currently offlineOkie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3190 posts, RR: 3
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 4252 times:

Bd1959 the airlines in the US were regulated in the early years and pretty much guaranteed a profit no matter what aircraft they had on protected route. After deregulation that a lot of airlines went down the tube so to speak due to competition.
The DC-3 was the first airliner to actually make airlines a profit, the 707 was the first jet airliner to do so. The maintenance costs on recip engines was horrendous, I read some where that the average major airline was changing up to 150 engines per month on the recips, that sounded like an astronomical figure but apparently the norm for the time. So the 707 most likely the most important due to the low operating costs.
The first 20 years or so of the jet age in the US were really exciting. The airlines were putting on the latest and greatest aircraft and not having to worry about competition and the industry was growing at double digit rates every year advertising that you need to be on the latest aircraft to hit the tarmac. Most airlines were buying about anything whether they needed them or not example BN having 2 747's would make about as much sense as WN having a 380 in these times.
You could go to any major airport at the time and see anything from a DC-3, to a 747 and everything in between


User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4189 times:

Well BD1959,

Like Okie said routes in the US at that time were regulated. I am not sure how the fares would have compared against Greyhound since I was only a child at that time (1970's). However I do remember that the flights were pretty much always full. We were not super rich, and my mother is always the type to search out a bargin, so I am going to have to say that yes the fares were within reach of regular people.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff



God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineBd1959 From Australia, joined Oct 2002, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4178 times:

Thanks Jeff,

Do you think the 707 was so important then - given that you're talking of a time 15 years after it's introduction - and at a time when the 747 would have taken on alot of the "tradtional" role of the 707 (eg trans Atlantic traffic).

Mark (BD1959)


User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4158 times:

Mark,

At that time I feel that the 707 was still very important, but like you said it was transforming from international use to mainly domestic use. Plus, as far as the 747 is concerned I have to wonder if it would have ever been produced if the 707 was not successful. Also, one other area where I believe the 707 helped create a transformation was in cruise ships. I saw a show on the History Channel in the US where they said that before the 707 ships were not just used for vacations but for transportation, but that is a different thread. Also, I believe the 707 has showed it's importance for airliners today by being the inspiration, I do believe, for the 757. I hope I have answered your question Mark.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff



God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1712 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4145 times:

The 707 was the first swept wing commercial airplane with podded engines under the wing, and the one in which every other large airplane model that is in production today was modeled after (less the 717).

My vote goes to the 707  Smile


User currently offlineBd1959 From Australia, joined Oct 2002, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4113 times:

Jeff,

Always interested in the views of others - many thanks.

Mark



User currently offlineBd1959 From Australia, joined Oct 2002, 450 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4109 times:

Incidentally, I think this is a classic livery on a classic airliner:


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Photo © Mel Lawrence



Mark


25 RayChuang : The 707 is WAY more significant than the Concorde when it came to how it affected air travel. Remember, when the 707 became operational in the late 19
26 Okie : you also have to remember that at the time of the 707 came on line the interstate highway system was just starting to get constructed. A trip that we
27 JMChladek : I tend to think of the 707 in the same breath as the DC-8 in regards to commercial aviation specifically, since both planes were almost like blood bro
28 Post contains images Airsicknessbag : There´s one thing about Concorde which people tend to forget when assessing her role in and impact on aviation as a whole. In four words, no Concord
29 RickB : Guys, Ultimately it depends on how you define 'important'. I chose Concorde because of the technology involved which has filtered down to other aircra
30 Post contains images Senliture : I would say it like this: the Concorde is a piece of art while the 707 is a piece of cake. Concorde is just like a piece of fine art which is always i
31 Teva : Even if I recognize the Comet was the first jet, and then a laboratory, he suffered being the first. Then, for me , the most important is the Caravell
32 Stefandotde : No doubt: the 707. Much more beautiful and at least much more successful than Concorde.
33 Post contains links and images Sabenapilot : CONCORDE Only truly legendary planes go to museums after being retired iso being dumped in the desert.... View Large View MediumPhoto © Matthew C
34 Beltwaybandit : Go to any airport today and tell me how much influence the Concorde had on today's commercial aircraft market. Both 707 and Concorde were technologica
35 Post contains images IslandHopper : Good point Beltway. But the Concorde did bring about some innovations that are used on current airliners. Just glad the socialist British and French t
36 N757KW : I think that both are important in their specific time periods The 707 because it changed air travel as we know at the time. Airports were redesigned,
37 GDB : It's all about perception really. I'm generally with RickB on this. But I would not call close to 3 million pax on Concorde 'small', unless you define
38 Sabenapilot : Ask yourself this: If CONCORDE is less of an achievement, less important than the 707, simply because supersonic flight has not become the standard in
39 Jeffrey1970 : I see what you are saying Sabenapilot. However although many people have talked about having passengers on space flights, I don't ever remember that b
40 Na : It´s like answering the question: what was more important for motoring, the Ford Model T or the Rolly-Royce Silver Ghost? The Concorde is a stunning,
41 RIX : Sabenapilot, I'd put it slightly different way. Concorde is the same to subsonic jets as moon landings to "regular" orbital flights. Nothing followed
42 BLuewave 707 : Undoubtedly the 707! The legacy that the 707 has been indelible in the air transport industry. True, it was not THE 1st jetliner, but look what the 70
43 Ikarus : What's more important? A plane or a car? A TV set or a book? An apple or a pear? The internet or a telephone? No objective standard to measure things
44 RIX : "The Concorde was limited to those who could afford it, not for the masses" - absolutely. But there was nothing in aviation history that would never h
45 Rickb : Bluewave 707, How did the comet benefit from the 707 - it was in service well before the 707, it had non stop transatlantic crossings before the 707 a
46 EGGD : Concorde, What the 707 introduced was competition, rather than something new, as their were already aircraft that had the same capabilities before the
47 Shankly : OK this is the deal..you've got to the quiz final and are presented with two blank envelopes, one of which you may open to reveal your prize One conta
48 Prebennorholm : The Concorde was a groundbreaking new plane in line with the DC-3, the DH Comet and the Tu-104. The B707 on the other hand was Boeing's entry into the
49 Post contains images Rickb : Shankly, Its gone a bit quiet after that last post of yours RickB
50 Toady : Take a look at the balance books - the 707 was the 'better' aircraft. But was it the most important? I don't measure life by Pounds & Pence, or Dollar
51 BLuewave 707 : RickB, I had a brain cloud. Sorry, but you don't have to be so snippy.
52 RickB : Bluewave 707 - now I read it back it does sound snippy - that wasn't my intention sorry !! Toady, Well said mate !!! RickB
53 FLYSSC : What a funny question !!! to me it sounds like : "What's the most important : The Ford T or the Ferrari Testarossa ? The Chrysler Transporter or the P
54 Beltwaybandit : Speed : Concorde ! Look : Concorde ! Best seller : 707 ! Most ingenious : Concorde ! PAX capacity : 707 ! Range : 707 ! Revolutionnary Technology : Co
55 Toady : Important: 1. having or able to have a great effect. 2. (of a person) having high rank or great authority or influence 3. pompous They're important in
56 NORTHSEATIGER : I think that both of these aircraft are important for different reasons, yes the 707 opened up a whole new aspect to air travel making it easier and a
57 BOAC : Hang on a second are you saying that Winston Churchill slept with JFK - I suspect not but at that particular moment I bet JFK thought Marylin more imp
58 Jeffrey1970 : I do want to thank everyone for participating in this thread in a civil and intelligent manner. It has been very interesting to read everyone's indivi
59 RickB : Just to add something to this conversation - One question (a serious one !!) how do people think the industry would be different if there had been no
60 Post contains images Mirrodie : Shankly, I'll take a Concorde ticket anyday WWJF: What would Jesus fly? Considering He walked on water, I'm sure he appreciate going back in time too!
61 Jeffrey1970 : RickB, That is a good question, but an impossible one to answer because we will never really know. Mirrodie, "WWJF" ha ha ha ha. I laughed when I read
62 Post contains links GDB : Many of our Concorde maintenance guys also used to work on 707s and other airliners, so what was their favourite? The VC-10!!!!! But for job satisfact
63 Post contains links and images DC-10 Levo : This has turned into another "What's your favourite aircraft" thread, so here goes: Concorde. View Large View MediumPhoto © Sam Chui View Large V
64 Boeing757/767 : My vote's with the 707. Not only for the airframe, but the engine technology as well. The aircraft introduced the world to intercontinental jet servic
65 OO-AOG : Concorde of course! First supersonic passenger transport, the 707 wasn't even the first jet, I think the Comet flew before.
66 FLYSSC : The B707 is a nice and great plane. A great success. It's a key plane and a big step in the history of Commercial aviation, like was the Comet before,
67 Post contains images RayChuang : While everyone is arguing about the historical importance of the Boeing 707 versus the Concorde , I think an airplane unveiled in 1947 is perhaps one
68 Jeffrey1970 : GDB, That is very interesting. I did not know that there was supposed to be a Concorde B
69 Rickb : RayChuang, I dont think the B-47 can be considered that revolutionary - many of its ideas (with the exception of its size) where taken from the german
70 FLYSSC : The project of an improved model of Concorde begun in May 1976. The name project was : "Concorde B610". After 5 years of studies and tests, this "New
71 Nfield : Concorde, of course - "Toady's" superb words sum up my exact feelings (and those of thousands of others). Just ask the 100's of people who turn-up eve
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