Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Posted (9 years 8 months 12 hours ago) and read 2809 times:
Jan Peter Balkenende, the Dutch prime minister, is on Thursday expected to give government backing to the planned alliance of KLM and Air France, in a development that brings closer a collaboration between the two airlines, according to a person close to the matter.
The move follows intense negotiations to satisfy the concerns of the Dutch government, notably over the future status of Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, the person said.
A high-level government meeting due on Thursday will mark a significant milestone in the protracted process, the person said.
Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 1, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 2780 times:
So, this will mean that AMS will keep its 'Mainport' function and that KL will keep its own identity.... I'm a bit less worried now, but still not convinced..
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
VCE From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 2, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 2759 times:
So, this will mean that AMS will keep its 'Mainport' function and that KL will keep its own identity.... I'm a bit less worried now, but still not convinced..
I agree with You. Anyway it was something that Berlusconi said to Chirac: All the 3 airlines must keep their own identity and they must be on the same level. Balkanende and Berlusconi (that are good friends even inside the European People's Party) are expected to have a phone call tomorrow regarding this decision, according to some sourches. Let's see..
FLYSSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7312 posts, RR: 61 Reply 3, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 2757 times:
It has NEVER been suggested that KLM would loose its identity to become something like "Air France Netherlands" or whatever...
I am not convinced either of the interest and the success of this merging... moreover, the big problem in this agreement is still the exorbitant and unreasonable power claimed by the present Board of Direction of KLM, according to the value of KLM compared to AF and its value in the future "combined" airline.
Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 4, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 2749 times:
FLYSSC,
AF wouldn't be so big without all the government aid in the last 10 years. ( 5 Billion euros ) KL has a very positive cash balance and never needs or will get government aid.
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 6, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 2733 times:
Varig md-11,
Don't forget KL has 80% of the flights at AMS. As I said before I'm not convinced of a positive future for AMS and KL if the merger after a few years turn out to become a fullscale merger. AMS without KL is nothing.....
[Edited 2003-09-25 13:10:28]
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
FLYSSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7312 posts, RR: 61 Reply 7, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 2714 times:
KL911, "ALL" the government aid to AF was the recapitalization in 1993, before the complete reorganization of the airline.That's it.
Since then, the success of AF and its growth is due to its employees and the sacrifices they accepted, the good decisions taken by Mr. Spinetta in terms of fleet, saving plans, commercial strategy and alliances witch led Air France to be profitable in the last years AND TO REMAIN one of the very few airlines in the world profitable even after 9/11 and war in Iraq, while all the other European majors are suffering ; All this without receiving 1 single Euro from the government.
Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 8, posted (9 years 8 months 11 hours ago) and read 2698 times:
FLYSSC,
and 1994?
''The European Court on Wednesday threw out a 1994 decision by the European Commission that authorized the French government to pay 20 billion francs ($3.09 billion) to bail out the state-owned airline Air France SA over a three-year period.
Competitors of Air France that had challenged the decision and taken the case to court welcomed the ruling and said they were studying its implications.
The ruling ''sends a clear message to every state airline in Europe that the future lies in private hands and not in the pocket of the taxpayer,'' said British Airways PLC, one of the seven airlines that were plaintiffs, including KLM Royal Dutch Airlines NV and Scandinavian Airlines System.''
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
FLYSSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7312 posts, RR: 61 Reply 9, posted (9 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 2675 times:
But KL911, THAT is precisely the one and only 20 billion FFrancs recapitalization decided at the end of 1993.
The European commission finally accepted the deal. In exchange, AF had to open its domestic market to new competitors (that's when and why all theses airlines like Air Liberté, AOM, etc... were created or became regular operators ) and AF could not also use this money to by new aircrafts during 3 years (or 5 years, I don't remember ) or to practice dumping on fares.
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (9 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 2663 times:
"power claimed by the present Board of Direction of KLM"
KLM is about 55% the size of AF.
It has a strong cash position, North Atlantic JV and efficient hub.
The AF state support direct & indirect is hugh, also after 9-11 (guarantees) and subsidizing Airbus orders (Hey, didn't french Government have a stake in that to ?)
Keeping out Low Cost carriers & allowing AF to gain nearly 100% domestic share helped to.
A fully privatized AF, that can show it's real strenght in a few yrs.
Why wait again ?
Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 11, posted (9 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 2654 times:
FLYSSC,
Don't get me wrong, I'm not against AF, but since I live in France, my ecperience with this government is really ehh, slow, bureaucratic and not focused on the economy. In this business you need to be fast and flexible and the power of the unions in france worries me also. Everytime a company is in trouble and needs to fire a view people, everybody goes on strike, which is even worse for that company. I admit the Dutch government has many negative sides as well, but they are at least focused on the economy.
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
FLYSSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7312 posts, RR: 61 Reply 12, posted (9 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 2618 times:
Hey, didn't KLM, LH, BA, AZ, IB, SAS etc... received guarantees from their government, even the private ones, after 9/11 ??????
KLM may be 55 % of the SIZE of AF but that 's not what is important in a merging process... the lasts results of KL and its financial situation make it worth 15 % of AF...evaluation made by financial specialists. (wouldn't the KL shareholders receive 15% of AF in exchange of their KLM shares ? )
How could AF keep out the LCC from the domestic market with the European Laws ? All the airlines operating on the French domestic market are loosing money, including AF, because there is in France the strongest competitor for any airline that doesn't exist anywhere else : the TGV...
You must explain me the thing with Airbus... !!! Does LH, BA, IB have the same "advantages" when they order an Airbus, just because Germany, UK, and Spain also hold parts in the Consortium ?
In that case, why do they order so many Boeings, including AF ?
Actually, it is completely the opposite... AF in the past was kind of forced to buy at the full price some Airbus we didn't really need...: the A300, then the A340, the A330 for Air Inter... )
Keesje From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 13, posted (9 years 8 months 10 hours ago) and read 2595 times:
The high value of Air France shares is based on the 55% state owned shares.
History has proven the Paris jumps in to the rescue when the going gets though. AF stock is a safe investment therefor.
Thats why only after privatization a balance can be made up.
It's like a small boy challenging others on the street and calling his big brother in when anybody dares to react. Not heroic.
"You must explain me the thing with Airbus" Goverment money was used to "streamline" or "rationalize" the fleet and make it more "envirmental friendly" and other BS justifying the bills being paid by the wrong people.
"How could AF keep out the LCC from the domestic market with the European Laws ?" Ask Ryan Air & Easyjet, bending the rules in Brussel by civil servants all reporting to the same Paris.
"Hey, didn't KLM, LH, BA, AZ, IB, SAS etc... received guarantees from their government, even the private ones, after 9/11 " Yes, but the AF didn't stop ..
FLYSSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7312 posts, RR: 61 Reply 14, posted (9 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 2558 times:
OK. I think it's better to stop this discussion with you both as you are really not objective on the subject. You just throw unrealistic accusations and statements without any proof .
How could AF could continue to receive guarantees while the other ones couldn't ??? this is ridiculous ! we actually received much less than other airlines in Europe and in the US.
For your information, EasyJet received traffic rights and slots from Orly, as well as Virgin Express after AirLib bankrupt. Virgin express finally decided not to use them, and Easyjet preferred to open new destinations in Europe such as BCN and used them only to NCE, on the domestic market.
Now I don't want to argue anymore. Let's just wait and see.
Tripple7 From Netherlands, joined Aug 1999, 538 posts, RR: 0 Reply 15, posted (9 years 8 months 9 hours ago) and read 2530 times:
@ FLYSSC,
Too bad, you want to end the discussion. I think it is wise to stop with this endless bashing you are doing with Keesje and KL911 and vice versa. You are not really objective too. Ya'll have very good points, whether you like it or not. So maybe it is better to FOCUS on what is going to happen. Although if you want to discuss about the future you will have to take the past into consideration. Fact is that this all has occured in the past and that we have to look ahead.
Anyway, today it was on the news (RTL-Z) that KLM expects that the "merger/alliance" with AF will result in more jobs at KLM and AMS. This was said by Leo van Wyk, however he could not explain why.
I think when the merger of AF and KLM goes on, many people at KLM and AMS will loose their jobs. I think the new parent company that will be created, which will be 80% owned by AF, will try to get as much business as possible to Paris. Many flights will disappear from AMS and this will result in lower employment at AMS by KLM. Since AMS is so heavily dependant on KLM this will result in a lot of job losses among companies that do business with KLM at or near AMS.
FLYSSC From France, joined Aug 2003, 7312 posts, RR: 61 Reply 17, posted (9 years 8 months 8 hours ago) and read 2486 times:
If Leo Van Wyk said that, he's really even more stupid to think we are going to believe this !
A lot of jobs were to be cut at KLM anyway, due to drastic reorganization plan.
It is obvious that jobs will be cut BOTH in AMS and CDG. This kind of operation is made to save money and rationalize operations, on both sides.
I don't believe and don't understand this insistence in keeping "the identity " of each company. Why ? this is bullshit ! National pride has nothing to do there anymore. We are in the 21st century ! OK, KLM and AF are two great old airline names, but as you rightly said, Tripple7, we must look in forward. Keeping separate identity will bring up more problems than it will solve them, and each airline will do its best to stay on its own position and to keep everything possible " at home", instead of being pragmatic and maximize the best in the two airlines.
Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 4977 posts, RR: 14 Reply 19, posted (9 years 8 months 6 hours ago) and read 2390 times:
Good point Keesje,
The last months before the summer we saw a lot of strikes here in France because of jobcuts, they even destroyed company property and offices! Unions here have more power then the government, it's time they do something about that. I know in Holland a court often forbid a strike if it will cost the company a lot of money. The funny thing is here that they even strike when a company is bankrupt! What is the point? They better start looking for a new job.. We will never allow that to happen to KL...
" The European consumer would crawl naked over broken glass to get low fares." Michael O'Leary
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 21 Reply 20, posted (9 years 8 months 5 hours ago) and read 2324 times:
So, this will mean that AMS will keep its 'Mainport' function and that KL will keep its own identity.... I'm a bit less worried now, but still not convinced..
Same promise as DASA made about the continued existence of Fokker, and Thomson CSF about Hollandse Signaal.
In other worse: Worthless
It has NEVER been suggested that KLM would loose its identity to become something like "Air France Netherlands" or whatever...
No, just like with Regional Airlines, Air Aurigny, and all the other Air France daughters.
AF wants to reduce capacity after the "merger, new company to be called Air France" by about the size of the current KLM...
Cooperation between French and Dutch companies in most if not all cases ends in the destruction of the Dutch company or their takeover by the French company, and Air France is a lot more agressive than most.
I expect Schiphol to be reduced to a regional airport like Rotterdam is now by 2010 if this "merger" goes into effect next year, with NO KLM and only a few AF flights to Paris.
No more intercontinental flights at all, a few regionals to other European cities and that's it.
DoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 21, posted (9 years 8 months 4 hours ago) and read 2290 times:
Keesje, don't forget KLM unions have warned Mr.KLM boss (Leo something-or-other) that they will strike if this merger leads to job losses...apparently KLM management had made a deal with the KLM pilot's union not to cut any jobs....so although France is well-known for its strikes, it is hardly alone in the EU!
These things happen in any country - losing a job is considered a bad thing, whichever country you visit.
The lack of objectivity simply parallels the little fights between the Swiss & Germans on the LH/LX thread we had.....it's not my place to criticise, but it's quite interesting to see how some of us are obviously proud & defend our national airlines, whilst others are more "international" (or maybe pragmatic?) in their approach.
Varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1572 posts, RR: 9 Reply 22, posted (9 years 8 months 2 hours ago) and read 2241 times:
geachte Jwenting
here is you pre-recorded template again: "Cooperation between French and Dutch companies in most if not all cases ends in the destruction of the Dutch company or their takeover by the French company, and Air France is a lot more agressive than most."
why don't you dutch guys admit it to the face of the world once and for all: it makes you sick that AF from under-developped-pro-communist-irrational-anti-business Frankrijk takes over your air jewel
A.U.B. stop your circumvolutions and spit it out!!!!!!!!!!!
one dutch colleague came to my desk where I have 2 airplanes on display: AZ md-11 and AF 747.
he said angrily: you should replace AZ airplane by a KL plane!
I asked why? he said, quote, "because KL is going to BUY bankrupt AF"
I explained it was the contrary and that it was out of the question I replaced the green plane by a blue one.
he didn't understand why I said that....to you guys your KL is so perfect
nota bene: if it was me, I would NEVER marry AF to KL...you have such a superiority complex that I would forecast a divorce already
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
There is no go ahead. There is progress in the negotiations but there is still no deal. These sources are not correct," the transport ministry's spokesman said.
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!!! Does LH, BA, IB have the same "advantages" when they order an Airbus, just because Germany, UK, and Spain also hold parts in the Consortium ?
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