Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 1, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2931 times:
I've read the conditions. 84% AF, 16% KLM, call option for AF to buy these 16%, so it's basically a full-scale takeover. Furthermore the process of privatising AF has been completely separated from the merger talks. Subsequently it is possible for the French government to control KLM.
I have to say, acquisitions camouflaged as mergers are nowadays business as usual, but seldon has the camouflage been so thin. It's a takeover, period!
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 3, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2909 times:
That I don't know, really. Possibly management saw a chance to get KLM into a big entity, that might ensure economic survival inthe long run, right now when there is a significant value to KLM shares. It gives/gave them the chance to negotiate the preserving of the brand name and AMS as a hub. When you're down on your knees, you can't do that. Otherwise beats me, but I'm interested in this, too!
Going64 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 329 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2901 times:
Wheel of Fortune : What is name of the Dutch national airline? : Air France ..... Ohhh that was an easy one
Thanks to the KLM management for giving away our own identity. Guess they will get some new shares as well which will be cashed next year after which move they will probably take the last KLM flight to a sunny place.
Two years from now we will see at Schiphol gate D14 a Cessna, D16 a Cessna, D18 ......
Wgw2707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1197 posts, RR: 37 Reply 7, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2853 times:
Well, your government is basically for the concept of a United Europe (which I am against) and would not mind one bit if one of the Netherland's most famous companies passed into the hands of a foreign entity.
If AF and KL do merge into one airline, I expect they will abolish the national identity completely and change their name to something like EU Air or somesuch, something to give pleasure to the powerful Eurocrats in Brussels, Luxembourg, and Strasbourg, who it looks like will soon rule all of Western Europe.
Eham From Netherlands, joined Sep 2003, 448 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2850 times:
I'm not a very pessimistic person but when I hear this I'm afraid the KLM brand will be vanished within a few years. But the main problem is (in my opinion) the position of Schiphol. I don' t believe AF is very interested in the airport, CDG has still some space to grow and there is a nice airport near Paris that can be developed into a major one, Paris Beauvais. Why introduce more traffic at AMS when you can move some routes to an airport in your own country.
I'm really scared the mainport status for Amsterdam is over
I REALLY REALLY hope I'm WRONG, time will tell.....
JGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 2821 times:
wgw2707 - I wasn't aware that a secret Luxembourgois cabal ran Europe ! Possibly from inside a secret offshore bank vault. Brussels yes, Strasbourg yes (although what actual power the European Parliament actually has has yet to be demonstrated !).
Whether you're pro or anti a United Europe (although as an American I'm not sure how it impacts you), airline consolidation is inevitable - Europe cannot support 12 or 15 national carriers in a market that is the same size as the US which only supports 5 or 6 major carriers. AF is a biggie, and is going (in the absence of national veto) swallow up carriers whose home market cannot support a large global presence. BA will do the same (IB already, keep an eye on EI), as will LH (they already got the OS group and a significant stake in BD). AZ will have to find a partner (it will be AF I guess), leaving littlies like OA, SR, SN, LG, TP, NI out in the cold.
As an enthusiastic European who benefits enormously from the single market and unrestricted travel/residence, I'm all for it.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 11, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2786 times:
Interesting discussion you guys are leading, but what does that have to do with the KLM takeover? That's not a EU problem, that's between AF and KLM and, of course, their respective governments, who are in both cases main shareholders (I know Dutch government owns only 14% or so, but they own the golden vote, that gives the right to veto all decisisons of the management). In this case EU is completely outside, except of course granting approval to the takeover, but if I remember the statements of Palacio-Loyola just 1 year ago, there should be no real problem, there is BA and LH, so there will be no competition problems for AF.
Varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1578 posts, RR: 8 Reply 12, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2751 times:
I really don't see why the dutch are so concerned...
since your country is sooooooo business oriented and hard-working (hahahaha,give me a break) it shouldn't be a problem KL is taken over by AF as long as it's for the sake of business....of niet??
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
Varig md-11 From France, joined Jul 2000, 1578 posts, RR: 8 Reply 16, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2691 times:
yeah....after all Fokkers are dutch: let them go back to their country, I guess our dutch fellows will be so proud to fly on dutch planes
no matter what with our Thalys connecting CDG to AMS at real high speed from beginning of next year, who would want to fly from AMS anymore?
now I see why AF bought these A380....where are the "the A380 is a waste of money and will never work" smart asses nowadays?
AF TW AA NW BA U2 TP UX LH SK AZ MP KL SN VY HV LS SS TK SQ RG
Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5065 posts, RR: 13 Reply 17, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2672 times:
Don't worry, as soon AF is privatized it will take a few years before they're bankrupt. Do you know one Frenchman who knows how to do business without state-aid? Besides that they are really famous for fraude at high levels. In this case it will mean the end of KL/AF and AZ.
Going64 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 329 posts, RR: 0 Reply 18, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
If you read my posting you will see that IMO there will not be a KLM (L=Luchtvaart!) anymore. Therefore I pointed out that all the gates at Schiphol can be used for small (private) aircrafts like cessna's or maybe even gliders which now fly into small landing strips (e.g. Lelystad).
All I read, firm raping associates needs careful elimination. Oooops looks like an acronym of Air France
DoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 20, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2544 times:
I am continually amazed by the anti- comments I am reading here: Germans against Swiss, Dutch against French, everyone against the English..
Honestly, it's very interesting to see how emotionally attached people are to their "national" airlines...they seem to be regarded as an important symbol of identity amongst some of us (and not just here in this forum).
I hope there is a book on this issue! But are all these insults realy necessary? Even with the EU, it seems this latent animosity between people living on opposite sides of the border continues to exist. Probably the old insults are rehearsed during quiet times when everyone gets on with each other...
Going64 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 329 posts, RR: 0 Reply 21, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2521 times:
Doors to manual
My opinions are mostly based facts and in this case on several economy related studies about possible scenarios after the merger/cooperation/take-over (whatever is applicable). These reports have my interest as it is the area where I have my job.
I don't hate the French, I travel approx. twice a month to Paris and (at least) my skiing holidays are in the French Alpes.
Conclusion: I want to see a stable Dutch economy in the future (read job) and IMO this KLM/AF act is a threat for this.
Andreas From Germany, joined Oct 2001, 6104 posts, RR: 33 Reply 22, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 2514 times:
...everyone against the Brits... Yes correct, as far as football is concerned and there they deserve it, too!
But seriously: Aviation is just part of the story. I remember when BMW took over Rover, there was an outcry in England, it sounded like a declaration of war on Germany. The same was to be seen and heard when Lafarge made a hostile takeover bid for BlueCircle. It doesn't really matter which industry we are talking about, takeover offers from foreign companies is for many people a strict no-no, and the yellow-press thrives on it.
But there is one thing I learned during the last 10 years in this strange business: Whenever emotions like patriotism take over, you can just as well close down the brain (and often enough the deal as well).
In this case, I do wonder though, because I always heard, that both companies will carry on business and just try to get synergies by streamlining their admins, routings etc....But when I read this morning (for the first time) the main parts of the deal, I was actually beginning to wonder how to sell this deal in the Netherlands.
Kl911 From Ireland, joined Jul 2003, 5065 posts, RR: 13 Reply 23, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2389 times:
That's the whole thing! You cannot sell this in Holland. They promised us a merger where each side would have veto rights, keep their own identity and hub. And now? look at the news! It reminds me of the sad ending of fokker. A German company buys Fokker, breaks it up and sell all the parts...
And you want me to be happy! You all will miss those beautiful blue planes and in return you'll get those boring , dirty white ones....., plus, hospitality is a word that doesn't excist in France. And I live there....
Lj From Netherlands, joined Nov 1999, 4327 posts, RR: 0 Reply 24, posted (10 years 2 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2276 times:
The main problem is that the French unions will do their best to prevent job cuts in France. Given their loud voice they'll make sure that in the end KLM will pay the bills. Moreover there is a lack of trust which is justified (under the current situation) as the French unions have done their best to fuel this distrust.
We currently have an situation in The Netherlands with an anglo-dutch company named Corus (which resulted from a merger between the Dutch company Hoogovens and British Steel). Both the Dutch as the British suppose to be equal (promises like KLM gets now from Air France), however the british have gradually taken over the board (and thus the company). The current situation is that the Dutch part of the company makes all the money but doesn't have anything to say.
You don't have to be clever that the Dutch unions fear the same situation at AF/KL as the current situation at Corus.
volgende keer dat ik naar nederland vlieg zal het wel via CDG. =(
Probably the only benefit from this merger is that my choice of airlines will be much easier (Lufthansa here I come!!!!)
25 Kl911: I think at the end Lufthansa will be the big winner, which I think is not so bad. I like the Star-alliance and United especially trans-atlantic and ho
26 AOMlover: Oh, stop whining for God's sake !!! I'd be very sad to see KLM disappear but now I'm fed up to read all those comments about AF and the French ppl bei
27 Kl911: AOMlover, Sorry, but it's just not my day today. When i'm pissed off I write that way as well I guess. Ofcourse France is great, my wife is french! he
28 Lj: I'd be very sad to see KLM disappear but now I'm fed up to read all those comments about AF and the French ppl being so bad, arrogant, etc...! You're
29 Plane Holland: I heard Air France say it will me a merger like Peugeot/Citroen, which is not bad as it leaves both company's in tact. (own market/customers) sorta li
30 Ams: In my opinion there are some people with a lack of brains working in the KLM management. I have seen soo many stange business decisions taken by KLM m
31 Plane Holland: It only takes a few strong carriers to completely rule out KLM (or any other big carrier), look at what a simple lowcost can do, they just prove they