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Qantas Blocks LA Route, Wants More European Rights  
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

Days after revelling in the fact that they convinced their own transport minister John Anderson to block Singapore Airlines' attempt of flying the Sydney to Los Angeles route, Qantas Airways is pushing for more access in the European market.

The CEO of Qantas said the "much-needed liberalisation of the regulatory framework for aviation" included the European Union to open rights to more non-European airlines. "Certainly, Qantas will be watching the first round with interest as the Australian Government is preparing for staking discussions with the EU on this very same subject."

Implying that Singapore Airlines Limited - owned 56% by Temasek Holdings - part of Singapore Inc. - is government subsidised, he said, "Given that we are a private company . . . we're not financially supported by governments. What I keep saying, and I think people don't want to listen, [is] 'We do not get the same benefits out of liberalisation as Singapore Airlines. We are not able to fly from Singapore to the United States and pick up passengers on the way. We cannot fly on to France the same way Singapore can fly into [Paris] from Australia,"

(My note: Whether or not Qantas gets the same benefits or not as Singapore Airlines Limited is irrelevant. Both airlines use their respective home-governments to negotiate bilateral (or in the case of Singapore, successfully opening up their aviation sector to American carriers through Open Skies (same can be said with the United Arab Emirates)) air rights. Maybe the French just aren't so open with the Australian negotiating team. Regardless, neither airline actually negotiates the rights for themselves. Seems some however, still want to exert non-free-market, non-free-trade ideals)

Singapore Airlines Limited South West Pacific Public Relations Manager based in Sydney Stephen Forshaw put up a staunch rebuttal. "In fact, SIA enjoys far less protection on its lucrative air routes than Qantas enjoys from Australia. Qantas can, now, compete directly against SIA for business on key routes like Singapore-London, Singapore-Paris, Singapore-Frankfurt and other routes within Asia as well."

Meanwhile, despairing after the faliure of Singaporean-Australian Open Skies, managing director for the Centre of Asia Pacific Aviation Peter Harbison announced, "Qantas getting access to the French market is nothing to do with Singapore."

More information at the Sydney Morning Herald website

Information was gathered from the above hyperlinked webpage. Information was rephrased and not copied and pasted with the exception of quotes. My personal comments embedded in the article are made clear in within emboldened parentheses and preceeded with "My note:"


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSteman From Germany, joined Aug 2000, 1319 posts, RR: 7
Reply 1, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 4872 times:

Very strange to hear that from Qantas after they have cancelled some traditional European destinations such Rome.
After 48 years of uninterrupted service they have decided to pull out of the market (where Alitalia stopped flying some years ago) and to transfer their pax to oneworld partner Cathay Pacific via Hong Kong (which has increased frequencies to 5 per week)....

Ciao

Stefano


User currently offlineJGPH1A From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4791 times:

QF clearly haven't bought enough Airbuses - come on, you know the rules. Order more A380's and you can have an extra slot at CDG

User currently offlineRupertvander82 From France, joined Dec 2002, 411 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 4735 times:

Qantas, Qantas, Qantas.

What can I say? Effectively, disgusted.


User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

Could we see other airlines start Australia-SFO routes? I mean, if only the LAX route is blocked, couldnt other airlines use SFO as their gateway. SFO is closer to SYD than LAX too.

User currently offlineMarara From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 678 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

far out, grow up, its a business not a toy! for some reasone i dont think QF gives a rats whether two little boys have their panties in a twist.

geez, u dont think SIA wouldnt have done the exact same thing if they were lucky enough to have QFs position ? oops sorry i forgot u guys live in a perfect world  Yeah sure

and ppl wonder how this board gets a bad name



I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
User currently offlineAussie747 From Australia, joined Aug 2003, 1162 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 4362 times:

QF has ordered 12 A380's scheduled for delivery between OCT2006 and 2012 (obviously subject to change) however it has optioned another 13 of them. Not such a small order. Remember when QF first ordered the 747 it was a much smaller order and now it operates 30 x 744's and 6 x 743's.

I too find it strange and intruiging as to why it has withdrawn from FCO yet wants to increase it's CDG services to 5 x weekly. Perhaps it has something to do with supply and demand as all it's LHR slots are taken and already flies daily to FRA.

I do have it rumour that it will resume services to FCO either for the 2004 Northern Summer or Winter schedule, and that the CX codeshare is just a stop gap measure.


User currently offlineWorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 4301 times:

What is Singapore Airlines ownership structure? Who is Temasek Holdings? How much does the government own?

thanks


User currently offline9V-SVE From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 2066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 8, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 4216 times:

Temasek Holdings is a government company that owns many Singaporean brands, DBS Bank is another I think.

QF is just whining because it does not have a good location, unlike SQ and CX. QF enjoys many fifth freedom rights out of SIN, while SQ has NONE out of Australia.


User currently offlineNickofatlanta From Australia, joined May 2000, 1483 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4099 times:

With the treatment QF receives from their government, they may as well be state-owned!

User currently offlineQANTASpower From Australia, joined Aug 2002, 516 posts, RR: 7
Reply 10, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4098 times:

To hear Govt owned and in decline SQ whining about the fact that QF competes with them out of Singapore on the London and Paris and Frankfurt routes makes me sick. SQ can pick up all the Europe to Australia traffic it wants. QF should be able to therefore compete on the Singapore to Europe legs.

Do people really expect the Aust Govt to grant this whinging airline the right to fly Aust to USA when QF would not in return be able to fly Singaopre to USA or for that matter go daily to Paris. Australia would have to have an open skies with the USA for the Aust Govt to even think about it.

And how pathetic for the French to continue to protect majority Govt owned Air France. Would it really hurt Air France if QF went daily to Paris.

Thankyou

QANTASpower




User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4716 posts, RR: 44
Reply 11, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

If SQ wants to hurt QF then these are the options :

1. Invest in Virgin Blue which can make it bigger and pose a larger threat to QF locally and in Pacific Blue too (used for transtasman and regional island routes from this winter)
2. Fly to NZ via AUST cities like EK
3. Fly to Fiji and other nearby islands popular with Aussies via Brisbane

SQ enjoys a great geographic location when it comes to flying from Australia to India-Europe-Middle East and Northern Africa as most of the airlines stop here or in BKK!

QF shouldnt be whining about one route which SQ wants...SQ and the SIN Govt can if it really wants to give QF the big boot from flying multiple daily flights of SIN to HKG-BKK etc in Asia + LHR-CDG-FRA etc (all B 744s) with total freedom. But SIN Govt hasnt done or said anything which shows their liberal approach at doing business.

Just look at the competition SQ has from SIN to Aust-NZ :

EK, QF, BA, GF, MAS, Garuda, ANZ...EK-BA-MAS-QF btw are MULTIPLE daily flights with 300-450 seater aircraft + 15-40 tonnes of cargo per flight!!!


User currently offlineQANTASBOY From Australia, joined May 2006, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

HEY! Whats with all the Qantas Bashing?! Everyone knows QF are resuming SYD-SIN-FCO in June 04, and with CDG being the 2nd most profitable route in the European services for QF...

By way of SQ, I myself am going to CDG tomorrow from Sydney, and being a QF Platinum (oneWord emerald) i would generally fly QF. HOWEVER, qantas' inflight service is SHIT! and SQ has them blitzed there, and the fare is cheaper..

The question is what do i do with 2000000 ff points in QF acct  Big grin

 Smile


User currently offlineSingapore 777 From Australia, joined May 1999, 1013 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

I would believe that if QF wanted to fly SIN-USA, it very well could. Of course pragmatism is another issue here but I had the impression that QF could go virtually anywhere from Singapore, without much obstruction. (And yes, without any whining from SQ because SQ itself had said it welcomed competition at its own homebase).

User currently offline9V-SVE From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 2066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 14, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3995 times:

To hear Govt owned and in decline SQ whining about the fact that QF competes with them out of Singapore on the London and Paris and Frankfurt routes makes me sick. SQ can pick up all the Europe to Australia traffic it wants. QF should be able to therefore compete on the Singapore to Europe legs.

Do people really expect the Aust Govt to grant this whinging airline the right to fly Aust to USA when QF would not in return be able to fly Singaopre to USA or for that matter go daily to Paris. Australia would have to have an open skies with the USA for the Aust Govt to even think about it.

And how pathetic for the French to continue to protect majority Govt owned Air France. Would it really hurt Air France if QF went daily to Paris.


HEY! Whats with all the Qantas Bashing?! Everyone knows QF are resuming SYD-SIN-FCO in June 04, and with CDG being the 2nd most profitable route in the European services for QF...

1. SIA is not completely owned by the government - 56%. Saying SQ is a govt airline is like saying Virgin Atlantic is an SQ airline.

2. SIA and Singapore are NOT the ones blocking the additional Paris flights. It is the French government who is to 'blame'.

3. SIA is just lucky it has a decent location. It operates SIN-CDG on sixth freedom rights, while QF operates the SIN-CDG on fifth freedom rights. Again, QF has many fifth freedom rights (LHR, CDG, FRA, HKG, CGK, BOM...) out of SIN while SIA has NONE - ZERO, out of Australia. Their flights into Australia are ALL sixth freedom flights. QF's flights into SIN are about HALF sixth freedom and HALF fifth freedom (?). So why is QF complaining? Sixth freedom rights can be 'taken for granted' while fifth freedom rights 'you should be grateful with what you have'.

4. Actually CDG is the least profitable of QF's European network with only 3x weekly service while LHR and FRA have 21x and 7x respectively.



User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 15, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3983 times:

"Do people really expect the Aust Govt to grant this whinging airline the right to fly Aust to USA when QF would not in return be able to fly Singaopre to USA or for that matter go daily to Paris"

Ahh fantastic! They might not because of problems with the third party government! Singapore is very liberal and would accept anything. Australia would not stop Qantas flying to anywhere. As I said, it's the other government that's the bone-breaker. Unfortunate that seems to be associated with Singapore though  Insane

"1. Invest in Virgin Blue which can make it bigger and pose a larger threat to QF locally and in Pacific Blue too (used for transtasman and regional island routes from this winter)"

Hmm. Maybe. Virgin Blue is still small though but growing rapidly. More importantly, it's low-cost so not really good to associate with it.

2. Fly to NZ via AUST cities like EK

SIA has rights to fly that. Don't know why they don't.

3. Fly to Fiji and other nearby islands popular with Aussies via Brisbane

Probably not much of a market. There probably is, but SIA won't be bothered.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineMunich From Germany, joined Mar 2002, 155 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3977 times:

QF go to Munich! You a very welcome here! The same applies to SQ!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Regards! Robert alias munich
User currently offline9V-SVE From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 2066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3975 times:

QF go to Munich! You a very welcome here! The same applies to SQ!

Doesn't Munich already have SQ 744Fs?  Big grin Don't think SQ wants to snap away some of LH's profits though...SQ has a very good brand name  Smile

Hmm. Maybe. Virgin Blue is still small though but growing rapidly. More importantly, it's low-cost so not really good to associate with it.

Whats so bad about lowcost?

3. Fly to Fiji and other nearby islands popular with Aussies via Brisbane

Probably the yield is too little to extend the BNE flights to the South Pacific


User currently offlineMarara From Australia, joined Oct 2001, 678 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3930 times:

Even if QF did get the boot from SIN (which wont happen), it would be SIN who would suffer and QF would probably benefit.

Who is the second biggest operator into SIN ? Apparently its SQ. If QF were to be booted Changi would suffer - landing fees, tourism, duty free sales etc. Don't think that if QF's freedoms were cancelled Many of SQs SIN-Aust rights would be cancelled - how do u think SQ got access to the Australian market ? through negotiating these freedoms, SQ has little home market so there for little to bargain with since there are other airports in the region that could become QF/BAs hub - Hell two of them already have the infrastructure - QF/BA F/J lounges etc.

With QFs largest competitor off the SIN - Aust route who would benefit ? hmmm

Im sorry but is anyone else getting sick of reading all this 'poor bugger me/SIA' ? If SIN were really pissed about this they could do exactly what someone said above, they haven't so they must be okay about the agreement.

RE: flying to NZ via Aussie, the reason SQ doesn't is because there is little money in the routes, EK does it to add NZ to its network, SQ already has direct flights.

[Edited 2003-09-27 09:21:33]

[Edited 2003-09-27 09:25:42]


I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome
User currently offlineB6FA4ever From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 816 posts, RR: 11
Reply 19, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

i know this is off subject...but it would be nice to see American Airlines start a US/Aussie flight. i wouldn't see why they couldn't though...(besides gov't authority). they have a pretty hefty presence in LAX, i'm sure they could drive some passengers away from United and Qantas! Just my "away from topic" thoughts...

B6FA4ever


User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 20, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3907 times:

"Whats so bad about lowcost?"

You fly a best, top quality airline and then you get Virgin Blue - where the service may be great but then again, you don't get the feel.

"If SIN were really pissed about this they could do exactly what someone said above, they havent so they must be okay about the agreement"

You fail to draw the point that Singapore Airlines may be internally "pissed" about this, but the government is all for full-frontal liberalisation.

"Dont think that if QF's freedoms were cancelled Many of SQs SIN-Aust rights would be cancelled - how do u think SQ got access to the australian market?"

QF can do anything in Singapore. I'd like to hear of one instane when SinGov / CAAS actually stopped any attempted QF expansion in Singapore.

Anyway, we are slightly missing the point about blocking one route while trying for another continent to open up.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13735 posts, RR: 19
Reply 21, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 3897 times:

" the reason SQ doesn't is because there is little money in the routes, EK does it to add NZ to its network"

One of my sources in an Australian airline says that after a CBA of some sort, they figured that EK would generate less of a loss by keeping the planes where they are rather than flying to NZ.



Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
User currently offlineMunich From Germany, joined Mar 2002, 155 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3833 times:

@ 9V-SVE

The SQ flight tu Munic is only a Cargoflight. Since 9-11-02 LH doesn't serve SIN. Bevore 9-11 there where plans from SQ to serve ORD with a stop in MUC. But MUC is a LH-Hub. LH and UA don't want a rival on its US-Destinations. In this way LH inaugerates a flight 3 times a week to SIN.



Regards! Robert alias munich
User currently offlineQANTAS747 From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 219 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3816 times:

I have a point to add, even though I am fairly young and nieve. ... In the recent ASA between SIN and AUS, it was negotiated that SQ would have effectively unlimited acces to All Australian INT airports(incl. CBR, OOL, and others) and QF would be able to operate as much 5th freedoms as it likes. To say QF gets 5th freedoms and SQ doesn't therefore it isn't fair is totally out of whack. The Austrralian Government doesn't have to give out their rights to just anybody.

Also with them trying to compete on the AUS-US market, they reason (in my view) that they want to fly it, is not because of another option for its singaporean passengers, but to cut into the "lucrative" market. In a previous post I said that the route wouldn't be so lucrative, if another airline entered it, look at the fall of all the other airlines that have operated SYD-LAX (NZ being the most recent) at the moment it cannot support that many airlines no matter what the tourism people say. And if SQ got those rights, QF would need similar rights eg. SIN-USA, whioch is totally not viable, as there is no direct flights, and the connecting port it would go through have other airlines as well, overcrowding that route as well.
The only option for QF in that instance is to take them on in their own turf, operating intra-asian flights from SIN for connects by the smaller ports of AUS which cannot support direct flights, and also take market share off SQ.

And as for it being hypocritical on QF's part (which seems to be the view portrayed by Singapore_Air) European rights have nothing to do with what happens with SQ's future business plan whatever it may be. QF needs somewhere to stopover in SE Asia on their flights to Europe, and choosing SIN as the hub, is because it is their historic hub, and it is in the Top 3 World airports, and they can also pick up 5th freedom traffic to help boost their yields.

To say SQ gets nothing from the 5th freedom rights QF gets is ludicrous as SQ gets a fair amount of AUS-Europe/Asia/middle east customers. As it is SQ is the 2nd biggest airline operating into AUS. I think it is SQ that is whining, not QF. And personally I think they should open their eyes a little bit, because the upcoming stuff with Emirates is going to impact them greater.

Kind regards,
QANTAS747


User currently offline9V-SVE From Singapore, joined Nov 2001, 2066 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (10 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 3797 times:

To say SQ gets nothing from the 5th freedom rights QF gets is ludicrous as SQ gets a fair amount of AUS-Europe/Asia/middle east customers. As it is SQ is the 2nd biggest airline operating into AUS. I think it is SQ that is whining, not QF. And personally I think they should open their eyes a little bit, because the upcoming stuff with Emirates is going to impact them greater.

But SQ operates all flights to Europe and Australia on SIXTH FREEDOM RIGHTS, while QF operates flights to Europe and SE Asia via SIN on FIFTH FREEDOM RIGHTS. Although yes, the impossible-to-finish-milking cow Emirates is a grave threat to SQ and other airlines as well.


25 QANTAS747 : Ok, point granted, but did Australia really have to give 6th freedom rights? Personally I think the airlines get what they need out of the ASA agreeme
26 Post contains images ZRH : Now as Swiss is member of Oneworld it would be great to see Qantas here in Zurich. They do have the traffic rights. Let's hope.
27 Stefandotde : @ZRH: AA already had codeshares with LX before LX got Oneworld-Partner. Question is if QF now is offering flights to ZRH that LX can feed them. Maybe
28 Marara : QF put their code on the LX service dont they ? I know they did b4 swissair died, after that ZRH became a BA codeshare, but im sure ive seen a release
29 Singapore_Air : "All Australian INT airports(incl. CBR, OOL, and others) and QF would be able to operate as much 5th freedoms as it likes. To say QF gets 5th freedoms
30 Docpepz : As i have said on another post, I think SIA and QF have Emirates to fear. With Emirates commencing direct services to SYD and MEL soon, they will be a
31 Airbazar : True, but Emirates caters mostly to the low yielding passenger, while SQ and QF will continue to handle the higher yield passengers. Remember, while i
32 Travel : SQ will not invest in Virgin Blue at this stage. SQ are not interested in Virgin Blue's structure and Virgin Blue have stated in the past that they ar
33 Mas777 : If Qantas wants more access into Europe then why doesn't it use KUL as an alternative hub. KUL (and indeed Malaysians/Australians travelling frequentl
34 Travel : It would also be good to see MH joining the Oneworld alliance one day.. At the same time KUL would also be a good hub for QF..I agree
35 Rupertvander82 : If Qantas wants more access into Europe then why doesn't it use KUL as an alternative hub. KUL (and indeed Malaysians/Australians travelling frequentl
36 Copaair737 : Maybe SQ could use AKL. it could go SIN-AKL-SFO, and that wouldnt hurt its partner, NZ, as NZ goes AKL-LAX only. If SQ had the 345 on that route, it c
37 QANTAS747 : SQ don't want another option of flying to the sdtaes, they are happy for their own country people to fly through Japan, Hong kong or Taipei. They only
38 Aussie747 : Already LX does codeshare on the FRA-SYD routes and QF codehsares on the SIN-ZRH flights but it would be great to see QF into ZRH on a regular basis
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