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Airbus Booming?  
User currently offlineA340pilot From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 576 posts, RR: 0
Posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Airbus Confirms 2003-2005 Delivery Outlook

Tell Me, Airliner Manufacturers... Do You Feel Lucky?
Responding to some media reports referring to future Airbus' deliveries or production schedules, Airbus has published some comments about its outlook for the next few years.

2003: As repeatedly stated during the past weeks and months, Airbus expects to deliver 300 airliners in 2003, in spite of the succession of crisis that have affected the air travel industry since the second half of 2001.
2004: For next year, Airbus is not yet in the position to provide firm figures. As recently and publicly indicated by Noel Forgeard, President and CEO, Airbus foresees for the time being a level of deliveries which would be in the same order of magnitude as in 2003.
2005: As anticipated by several industrial sources, a market recovery in terms of deliveries can be envisaged in two years from now. However, it is even more premature to predict at this stage a reliable delivery level for 2005.
Airbus notes that, "The figures reported by a few media today are based on working documents that need to be established, at the various levels of the organization, in order to monitor consistently the industry cycles and allow the Airbus teams, suppliers and other stakeholders to plan ahead. Such working documents include internal working assumptions, constantly re-adjusted, and often refer to specific phases of the industrial process rather than to actual global deliveries."

I supose it would be a secure place to work in the next few years!!  Big thumbs up

Best reguards,
a340pilot

(ps: If this thread has already been posted Please accept my appoligies and please let me know and i will suggest deletion and search for more in the archives! Thank You )


Go! Canucks Go!
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineFlykal From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2931 times:

For sure they are selling a lot of airplanes, but you need to also consider at what price they're selling. Airbus are well known for offering phenominal discounts to get their stock moving. While they may not be in the red, I'm sure this is probably effecting their yield.


One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
User currently offlineRickB From United Kingdom, joined May 2003, 243 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

Flykal,

Do you have any links to show their phenominal discounts please?

RickB


User currently offlineZak From Greenland, joined Sep 2003, 1993 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

i know 2 people who work for airbus in getafe, madrid, the former casa plant. they also say that in general their company is doing great financially and that they are quite confident with their a380 product. i dont know any figures but i know they dont have a reason to tell me wrong things or anything, so i dont know why or how but in general it seems airbus has their thing together.
one of them who has just been in seattle with boeing working in the field of the boeing/airbus joint quality assurance programme for delivering industries mentioned to me that the boeing people are a bit "depressive" right now. he also said that the 7e7 is a step in the right direction and will most likely be a great and very competetive product if boeing indeed builds it as advertised, with the only problem being boeings management section.
p.s. its not an AvB posting it is just some piece of information that i figured would be interesting to share with people since its not from a press release but from people inside the company.



10=2
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2655 times:

RickB,

I don't think anyone in the business would argue that either A or B aren't giving huge discounts today.

Don't know why you would require a link for common knowledge.

Cheers


User currently offlineRickB From United Kingdom, joined May 2003, 243 posts, RR: 9
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Shenzen,

I know both Boeing and Airbus are giving large discounts - however I just wanted to find a source for the 'phenominal' part of FlyKal's statement.

If you could define 'phenominal' as well that would be useful.

Regards,

RickB


User currently offlineRickB From United Kingdom, joined May 2003, 243 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

define 'phenominal' in terms of discount that is - I know what the word means  Wink/being sarcastic

RickB


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

RickB

Here is your link. I copied below... check definition c:

Keep this link in case you need a definition in the future  Smile

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=phenomenal

Main Entry: phe·nom·e·nal
Pronunciation: fi-'nä-m&-n&l
Function: adjective
Date: 1825
: relating to or being a phenomenon : as a : known through the senses rather than through thought or intuition b : concerned with phenomena rather than with hypotheses c : EXTRAORDINARY, REMARKABLE
synonym see MATERIAL
- phe·nom·e·nal·ly /-n&l-E/ adverb


User currently offlineFlykal From Australia, joined Sep 2003, 442 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2573 times:

RickB, as you may see from my profile, I am currently working for one of their bigger customers here in Asia. I'm not at liberty to disclose amounts, and I have only seen some figures, not all, and not figures for all aircraft types either. I will therefore let you make your own assumption as to why I used the word "phenominal" in the context of the post.

Let me just say that there was a time when Airbus was very keen to sell off A330's and hence the discounting. I can also safely say (however, with no actual posting of figures) that Airbus was and still is to most extents offering larger discounts than Boeing. Again, I can not speak for all customers, as each airline negotiates its own deal with the respective manufacturers.

Please understand the word "phenomenal" was not to mislead, merely represent information I can not explicitly state!

Hope you understand...  Smile
Phil



One doesn't discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time
User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1710 posts, RR: 2
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2523 times:

Flykal,

The last A330 sale that I was made privy of, the discount was more then 45 percent, but less then 50.

Of course, we will never have a link, and never convince anyone else.
Cheers

[Edited 2003-09-29 15:24:42]

User currently offlineLogos From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 793 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Of course both Airbus and Boeing are jealous to protect the actual selling prices of their aircraft and would never post it on the web. Similarly, airlines realize that part of the rules of doing business is never to go "public" with such data.

Having said that, it's generally known in the industry that Airbus has offered substantial discounts to get a toe-hold in markets. They did it first with the A320 (with Northwest being a primary beneficiary) and again with the A330 (again, Northwest coming out on top).

That's not to say that Boeing hasn't done some unconventional things (like taking nearly-new Airbus aircraft in trade) to make a sale, but Airbus, being directly subsidized, has had a greater ability to look at the initial discounts simply as part of the development costs. The winners are the airlines and, indirectly, the passengers.

Cheers,
Dave (now in Orlando)



Too many types flown to list
User currently offlineRickB From United Kingdom, joined May 2003, 243 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2419 times:

Shenzen,

Thanks for the link - any chance you could look up 'pedant' I would be grateful (JOKE !!!!).

Phil and Dave,

As Shenzen's link points out - using the term 'phenominal' implies the discounts where remarkable or extraordinary - however in the current climate both Boeing and Airbus are giving 'phenominal' discounts so its kind of the norm these days rather than extraordinary !!

Both of them are doing it - Ryainair and Easyjet are prime examples !! Lets not get into the subsidisation issues since it ultimately involves toys being thrown out of prams on both sides !!

RickB












User currently offlineA340pilot From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

well now a days with the financial problems in the airline industry, I would have to think that in order for boeing or airbus to stay afloat they have no choice but to offer discounts to the airlines. But I dont think the "buy 2 get a 3rd half price" method will do in airbus!

also, here is a article about buying at a discount:

Airbus sells 20 A320s to China
Booming China Eastern Airlines flexes its muscle and gets a discount

SHANGHAI, China -- China Eastern Airlines Corp. plans to buy 20 A320 planes from Airbus by 2005, taking advantage of a slump in aircraft orders after the terrorist attacks Sept. 11 to pay less than the $1.1 billion listed price.

China Eastern Air signed an initial accord with Airbus yesterday to buy the A320 jetliners as it expands its fleet to 100 planes by 2005 from 68 now, said official Steel Chen.

"We are taking the opportunity to buy now when the market is weak," Chen said, declining to say how much of a discount was negotiated. The plan needs government approval.

The nation's third-largest airline had a 16 percent jump in passenger numbers to 10.4 million last year, avoiding the slump in international travel that forced many carriers to put orders on hold. Including China Eastern's plan, China has ordered 50 planes since the attacks, second only to Ireland, whose Ryanair Holdings Plc bought 100 Boeing Co. aircraft last month.

"China Eastern Air certainly increased its bargaining power at such a time to get a big discount for the order," said Chen Chen, an investment manager at state-owned Shenyin Wanguo Securities Co. in Shanghai.

Both Airbus and Boeing expect China to buy about 1,600 passenger aircraft worth $144 billion in the next 20 years. Boeing expects China to be the second-largest airplane market after North America by 2020.

China's government expects annual air-cargo volume to rise 13 percent during the next 20 years, while passenger volume is seen growing 8 percent a year.

Boeing planes now make up about 64 percent of China's fleet of 577 commercial planes, Boeing says.

The Airbus order comes less than three weeks before President Bush's second official visit to China, when he will meet Chinese President Jiang Zemin in Beijing.

China has used jetliner purchases for political gain with the United States or European countries in the past, once placing Airbus on the banned import lists because of French military sales to Taiwan.

Bush's China tour this month is unlikely to be accompanied by many new business orders as in past visits, according to officials in the U.S. Foreign Commercial Service in Beijing. The leaders' summit will focus on counterterrorism issues, they said.



Best reguards,
a340pilot



Go! Canucks Go!
User currently offlineCfalk From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2152 times:

According to Airbus, they delivered 175 aircraft in the first 8 months of the year. If they continue at this pace, the last four months should give another 80-90 aircraft, for a total of 260. 300 seems a little optimistic, unless they already have a whole bunch of "white-tails" which have suddenly found buyers.

http://www.airbus.com/doc/media/ordersndeliveries/od_aug03.xls

Charles


User currently offlineBobrayner From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2003, 2227 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2087 times:

According to Airbus, they delivered 175 aircraft in the first 8 months of the year. If they continue at this pace, the last four months should give another 80-90 aircraft, for a total of 260. 300 seems a little optimistic, unless they already have a whole bunch of "white-tails" which have suddenly found buyers.

Airbus press release on 26/10/03:

· As repeatedly stated during the past weeks and months, Airbus expects to deliver 300 airliners in 2003, in spite of the succession of crisis that have affected the air travel industry since the second half of 2001.

This was a response to a German paper publishing internal reports that anticipated 306, 313, and 385 in 2003-2005 respectively. I don't think their arithmetic is too bad... and they're unlikely to be deceiving themselves much in a short-term internal planning document.

Although you could question the wisdom of keeping production going at full speed, when there are so many airliners parked in the desert  Wink/being sarcastic

[Edited 2003-09-29 20:25:31]


Cunning linguist
User currently offlineTomcat From Belgium, joined Sep 2000, 161 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 1959 times:

@ Bobrayner

About the anticipated deliveries, isn't it 388 in 2005? Sounds more logical in my view : 306, 313,... doesn't those figures tell you really nothing?? Maybe a more carefull figure for 2005 is 332...

Nicolas


User currently offlineA340pilot From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1814 times:

Well in any regards, its nice to see a boom in the airline industry especially with all the airlines going under!  Big thumbs up


Best regards,
a340pilot



Go! Canucks Go!
User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (10 years 10 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1792 times:

A and B will be delivering about the same number of planes for the next few years. The larger issue is that the value of the Airbus aircraft is considerably higher than those of Boeing. Most of this is simply because they are delivering larger aircraft--and hopefully, a larger margin for profit.

Boeings hopes does rest with the 7e7--which, if designed and marketed successfully, could readily rectifly the revenue situation--but it will take a few years....

In the long term, I think both will do just fine....


User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1583 times:

Discounts on aircraft are currently at these levels:

(Orders of 25 or more copies)

Boeing - 17-27%
Airbus - 20-29%
Embraer - 10-17%
Bombardier - 9-13%

Very Large Orders - 100+ copies

Boeing 30-35%
Airbus 30-37%
Embraer 13-28%
Bombardier 12-26%

An example: CRJ-200 is listed at $21M and selling at $17.3M (All Options)


User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1534 times:


BoingGoingGone,

What is the source of your figures? Another thing to consider when comparing discount percentages, is that they integrally depend on where the manufacturer has set their original list prices. If they have larger margins to begin with, they can offer more discount to offer before eating them up.

IIRC BCAG and Airbus presently have roughly equal operating margins, which implies they offer approximately similar discounts, taking the above into consideration.

If Airbus consistently offered better deals than Boeing, no airline in their right mind would ever buyfrom Boeing.


User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1518 times:

I have multiple sources, and I don't need a lecture on pricing thank you.

User currently offlineJoni From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1417 times:


Multiple sources, and sources that cannot be named... This all reminds me of how UFO enthusiasts behave on talk shows.

I refer to my earlier post, #19.



User currently offlineA340pilot From Canada, joined Sep 2003, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Come on now people, it would seem we are going off track here, (insult for insult) the reason for this thread is your personal opinions on the airbus boom! No one is right or wrong, everyone can state there own opinion, and if the opinion is that sources were heard, then so be it, and if no sources were posted that's not what is being said here. Sorry, but lets just try to be civil and stay on track. Thank You  Smile

best regards,
a340pilot

PS- I am non biased in this situation IM not "taking sides" to either!



Go! Canucks Go!
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