ZSSNC From Germany, joined Feb 2003, 428 posts, RR: 7 Posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4248 times:
I was just wondering. If CO and NW indeed joined Skyteam along with KL. What would DL do? I somehow cannot imagine that three carriers of that size from the same country would want to stay in one alliance.
Airbus A340-600 - the longest temptation in the sky
AKelley728 From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2197 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 4219 times:
Uhh, Why not?
Delta, CO, and NW have all recently implemented a domestic code-share agreement. Delta is the founding member of SkyTeam. Methinks that CO/NW/DL along with AF/KL/Alitalia will all be one big happy family.
Airbus Lover From Malaysia, joined Apr 2000, 3248 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4057 times:
If only they could get one more South America, maybe Aerolineas Argentinas?, to further enhance their presence along with Aeromexico, then perhaps a Chinese carrier, a South East Asian (possibly wheN MH is ready to join one), and an African (SAA? or Kenyan). This way I feel that they will be the truly premium and number 1 alliance.
Lfutia From Netherlands, joined Dec 2002, 3407 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3882 times:
For that Asian airline i think that it should be Jet Airways because they already have establishments with NW and KL and a few others. You can earn miles on NW or KL's FFP's and spend miles if you fly Jet Airways.
Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
Ladevale From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3784 times:
One happy family? Are you sure?
In a post on another thread, I just hinted at some of the dramatic effects this will have to traffic patterns in the transatlantic market.
It is interesting to see that I was not the only one thinking about this. This is a quote from an article in today's Crains Detroit Business: “If you start to see (passenger) levels change between Paris and say, Chicago,” Pincavage said, “and those are passengers that normally would have flown to Detroit or Minneapolis, then that’s how they’re going to determine if there’s a problem. That may take until next summer before they know it.” Pincavage is John Pincavage, president of Pincavage & Associates L.L.C., an aviation consulting firm in Westport, Conn.
In short, Northwest stands to lose significant amounts of transatlantic traffic that connects at its hubs if due in part to the influence of shared frequent flyer programs the customer who used to connect at Detroit or Minneapolis to get to Paris now takes advantage of Air France's more convenient service from Chicago.
Remember each of the smaller alliances, Delta with Air France and KLM with Northwest, already have established their traffic flows, flows which definitely favor their own hubs. Air France's presence, however, at major US gateways (e.g., JFK, Chicago, LAX, DFW, Miami, etc.) that are not hubs of its potential new partners (i.e., Northwest and Continental) suddenly threatens those established traffic flows, specifically the flow from connecting traffic that could just as easily avail itself of direct service on Air France.
Air France may have made concessions to KLM and the Dutch government to preserve the AMS hub, but no such assurances might be forthcoming to its new US partners. To be sure, Northwest will try to maintain its own traffic patterns by continuing to favor AMS over Paris as a connecting hub for its own customers. At least for the next three years, or as long as the convenants exist between the Dutch government and Air France, KLM will try to reciprocate. Problem is that the premium passenger who makes all of this alliance formation worth doing is driven primarily by the ability to earn frequent flyer points. If he can do so on Air France more conveniently, without having to connect at Detroit, Minneapolis, Houston, or even Atlanta for his transatlantic segment, and still earn the same FF points, what is going to keep him on Northwest, KLM, Continental or Delta. Their superior inflight product? You've got to be kidding.
There was a reason why AA and BA agreed between themselves never to award miles on transatlantic segments unless they were granted full anti-trust immunity to operate as one airline across the Atlantic. AA rightly feared that BA's better product and its larger roster of routes to LHR would cut into AA's yields. On the other hand, BA feared that AA's more generous FF program would drain its own ranks. If Northwest and Continental do nothing to protect themselves like AA and BA did, they just might discover sooner rather than later how Air France has a way of turning ever partnership to their exclusive advantage. By next summer, however, it may be too late.
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3711 times:
There was a reason why AA and BA agreed between themselves never to award miles on transatlantic segments
Somehow, I get the feeling that it's more than just some brotherly decision they both elected to come to... particularly considering that they do allow opposing transatlantic mileage accrual in every N.American market that they're allowed to
From AA.com: Effective July 1, 2003, AAdvantage members may earn and use miles on British Airways transatlantic flights to/from Canada, Latin America and the Caribbean
WorldTraveler From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3572 times:
somehow you think that AF-KL is going to push the US carriers over the hill. NW is perfectly capable of shifting their planes from AMS to CDG if it appears their fortunes are best served by going there. Also, keep in mind that the reason why Euro carriers want a US partner is to serve all of those cities that the Euro carrier doesn't serve. The value of a partnership is that both carriers need each other - each for their beyond transatlantic trunk destinations.
Also, you may not be aware but several transatlantic partnerships including those at DL and KL are built on revenue sharing, making sure that both carriers share in the wealth from transatlantic flights. The US carrier gets the revenue from N. American flights while the Euro carrier gets the revenue for intra-Europe and beyond.
US carriers are going to be helped, not hurt, but consolidation in Europe although their advantage will be improved by pooling their own resources by consolidation.
Dtwintlflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 301 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 3456 times:
look....if NWCOKLM join SkyTeam, which the road to that decision has been paved for some time, but not yet finalized, it won't mean major changes to the extent you guys are talking about. The airlines are not going to purposely hurt each other as far as capacity. NW will still fly the same flights to CDG LGW FRA and eventually CO / LIRF), Italy">FCO again along with hopefully MAD and MXP. Yes you will probably see an AF flight daily to MSP along with hopefully an Alitalia to CO / LIRF), Italy">FCO. You will not see any reduction in service to cities currently served (NW will still serve all of Europe that it already does along with DL CO and KLM). Really the biggest impact for all pax will be from
NW (Asia routes)
CO (UK South America, Mexico)
DL (Europe, South America, Central America)
Alitalia and AF (Europe Middle East)
KE (China routes and Asia)
Obviously as mentioned a million times, SkyTeam will certainly be the predominant alliance far outpacing OneWorld and Star. Star may have led the way in the early days for certain things, but NWKLM alliance really was the first true "partnership" where revenue was split.
Don't forget, you will probably see China Southern come into the SkyTeam alliance.. Nothing like a hub down in Guangzhou to connect millions of pax throughout China. they are already close partners with KLM and CO.
Peachair From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 369 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (12 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3308 times:
To put this issue to bed - here are Leo's comments from yesterday:
Delta Chairman and CEO Leo Mullin talked about the future of SkyTeam at the 2003 Delta International Public Relations Conference in Atlanta Sept. 30. The address followed the news of a project announced by Air France and KLM to create a new, leading European airline group. The announcement was also made that KLM had applied for SkyTeam membership.
"This is an exciting development with many implications for airline and alliance structures in Europe, the U.S., and perhaps other parts of the world," Mullin said. "Certainly one of the most important implications for us at Delta and all of you here today is that this agreement opens the door to KLM's membership in SkyTeam, and paves the way for Delta domestic codeshare partners Northwest and Continental to also join."
Mullin talked about SkyTeam's growth, the advantages it offers customers and the potential that KLM's decision brings to the partnership, along with Continental and Northwest. He also talked about the strong "armada" of air service products to support Delta in becoming the most respected and successful airline in the world, despite continuing industry and economic pressures.