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BA Buys Heathrow Slots From UA  
User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7397 times:

I read on Yahoo! Airlines/Aviation News that British Airways paid $15-$20 million to purchase four takeoff slots from United Airlines, all of which are UA slots to New York. Does this mean that United is pulling out of the NYC area market to London? Right now, United has two flights a day in the market, both of which operate out of JFK (UA 956 and UA 904). The Newark-Heathrow flight (UA 906) has been suspended or will be suspended shortly, and the day light service from JFK (UA 976) has not operated since 09/11.

There is no question that United is an also-ran in the busy but competitive London-New York market, one of the most prestigious and lucrative in the world. But United must depend heavily on O&D on both sides of the pond to fill one 777 and one 767-300 flying the route daily since it has virtually no major operation at JFK (with NRT, SFO, and LAX being the only other flights, and a couple of Express flights to IAD).

Can United really be exiting the market?

ContinentalEWR

54 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineSegmentKing From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7317 times:

BA told another reporter they don't plan on adding any additional NY - London flights... so I don't think UA is giving up the JFK slots... I think it is more than likely the 2 EWR & 2 BOS flights..

-n


User currently offlineContinentalEWR From United States of America, joined May 2000, 3762 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 7285 times:

The article specifically mentioned the slots as being NY slots, but you are right, in another Press Release about enhanced Club World service to NYC, BA said it is not adding more flights to NYC.

UA has dormant slots to Boston, Seattle, JFK, and Newark, so my guess is that these are the slots they are selling. United hasn't operated nonstop SEA-LHR flights since 1993, the Boston flight was axed last year, and JFK and EWR have been severly reduced by 50% from four daily to 2 daily.

ContinentalEWR


User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7370 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 7043 times:
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Slots at the UK airports are not tied to destinations; if it were, bmi would have 5 daily to LPL and 2 or 3 daily to both BHX + EMA. Instead bmi cut these services to provide slots for their European routes.

Therefore, knowing BA, I wouldn't be surprised if one or two more of BA's LGW services got transferred to LHR.

David


User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6542 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6981 times:

UA used to fly four daily flights JFK-LHR so UA is probably selling some of the dormant rights that they don't use.

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineAA717driver From United States of America, joined Feb 2002, 1566 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 6858 times:

This is not good for UA. I give you TWA and PAA as examples. When TWA began selling routes it destroyed the morale. Sorry UA'ers I hope it stops here.TC


FL450, M.85
User currently offlineStevenUhl777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6760 times:

Cash for assets that UA doesn't even use or can't make a profit on...makes perfect sense to me. Many companies who have assets that have only a minimal impact on profits in tough times (and actually have a drag because there maybe operating costs associated with them) will seek to sell them. In fact, my company is doing the same basic practice, and we have nothing to do with the airline business!

If it's true it's BOS and SEA and EWR, those routes will probably never be restarted by UA again, anyways It makes further sense for them to focus on flghts that can be profitable out of hubs/markets that are less competitive for them, such as IAD. Hasn't UA already moved some of their South American routes out of JFK to IAD as well?

Can't say I agree with AA717driver's conclusion. Employees already know those routes have been suspened anyway, so that wouldn't lower morale. If UA were to start selling active routes, now that's a different story entirely, but I don't see that happening in this case.


User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16854 posts, RR: 51
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6709 times:

I think it's outrageous that UAL is selling Heathrow slots to BA, if they need the money sell all of the routes to either DL or CO.

Or sell some of the slots to either CO or DL (or both) , which I think is fine so long as they do not actually fly the routes untill a new treaty could be signed.

Again this is outrageous.

Going back through all the time tables I have the most daily flights between the US and LHR that I could find UAL flying was 16 daily flights.

I think UAL is going to stick with JFK, 1 daily in the Winter and 2 daily in Summer.



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6676 times:

The comment above that states slots are not tied to destinations is correct......UA is simply selling 4 slots to BA if the news release is accurate - thus UA will lose 2 landings and 2 departures per day. UA has cut back in service at LHR in the past years and, for some time, Star Alliance partners have used a some of the UA slots on a temporary basis (babysitting as it is called) so that UA would not lose them. Now, with the EWR service cut, and JFK-LHR operating with only 2 flights per day (there were 3 and at one time 4 flights per day on that route) it is selling the slots that we associate with two New York flights (one to EWR, one to JFK).

While UA has not operated SEA-LHR for years, I believe that the slot for that flight (and some others) have been transferred for use on the Chicago-Heathrow flights.....remember, UA only gained the right to fly ORD-LHR under a special exception to Bermuda 2 (Pan Am did not fly that route and UA's authority into Heathrow was purchased from Pan Am) and UA started ORD-LHR with only one flight per day (a 763)....there are now several flights per day on the route.

A sidenote, with both UA and AA cutting their EWR-LHR services, BA has the Newark to Heathrow route to itself.......and CO, due to Bermuda 2, is stuck at Gatwick. Not really equitable in my opinion; its a shame that CO could not have grabbed the 4 subject LHR slots to open up EWR-LHR service! Situations like this will arrise unless and until Bermuda 2 can be reworked or thrown out - maybe the US and UK authorities will be able to resolve their bilateral by the year 3000?


User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6642 times:

I don't agree that this is outrageous...UA probably sold to the highest bidder...that's how an auction works, and both parties involved are private companies, not state ones therefore air service agreements between the UK and US govts are irrelevant. Besides, the UK has washed its hands clean of dealing directly with the US...that's what the EU is for.

$15-20 million is nothing to smirk at, I'm sure UA greatly appreciated the charity...

Back to BA.

With the retirement of Concorde from the fleet this month, one wonders whether the airline might trial all-premium class flights through a partnership with PrivatAir using BBJs/ACJs, as Lufthansa is doing now.

rgds



User currently offlineConair From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 196 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6611 times:

Dutchjet,
Do not Virgin also fly the LHR-EWR route?

Regards
Conair


User currently offlineFlyboyaz From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6598 times:

Yep they sure do and CO codeshares on that flight.

User currently offlineDutchjet From Netherlands, joined Oct 2000, 7864 posts, RR: 57
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6575 times:

I think you are right about Virgin on the EWR-Heathrow route, forgot about that, good catch!

However, I think that you understand my point.


User currently offlineTLHFLA From United States of America, joined May 2003, 593 posts, RR: 1
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6520 times:

If the Heathrow slots could be used to fly to any city, I could see BA transferring LGW-ATL to LHR-ATL. They would have the edge on Delta as far as O&D is concerned for that route. I can remember hearing that Delta is very interested in trying to obtain LHR slots.


Bill in ATL
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16854 posts, RR: 51
Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6523 times:

BA has added a third daily EWR-LHR flight, and VS operates two daily EWR-LHR flights.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineThrust From United States of America, joined Sep 2003, 2688 posts, RR: 10
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 6506 times:

Anyone recognize the situation UA is in? I'll give you a clue (It involved LHR route-swaps between two U.S. airlines which are now one). United is in the same situation TWA was in during the Carl Icahn era, which many of you know about. I'm not going to give a huge lecture. All I can say is that United, like TWA and Pan Am before it, is an airline whose routes extend over the globe. And now, United is being forced to suspend many of these routes, such as flights to New Zealand and, like everyone mentioned, LHR-EWR, and possibly BOS-LHR. My guess is that United will continue to cut even more flights to gain breathing space, because that is what TWA and Pan Am had to do. I would expect to see United slash more international routes in the future, but if that is not going to happen, please tell me. If anyone responds, thanks.


Fly one thing; Fly it well
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16854 posts, RR: 51
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6474 times:

"and possibly BOS-LHR."

BOS-LHR has been gone for a couple years..



Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
User currently offlineDispatch From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6439 times:

STT757,
what makes you think DL or CO even WANT these slots. They both have their operations at LGW. Setting up at Heathrow for just two r/t's a day would cost them a lot.
Besides, CO has numerous code shares to LHR daily with VS. DL is (probably) anticipating more flights to AMS and CDG in the SkyTeam alliance.

Peter


User currently offlineCedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8079 posts, RR: 54
Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 6409 times:

Take it from me, Delta and Continental want Heathrow. They want it BAAAAD.

And it would make sense, both have big hubs in the NY area. Delta are the biggest airline across the pond (certainly the biggest US carrier, BA may carry more pax) and a lot of it is from JFK. Continental completely own Newark and have loads of European destinations. Heathrow is the missing jewel in the crown for both airlines.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineCopaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 6211 times:

I have heard that BA may upgrade SFO and LAX to 3 dailies in the summer, anyone else hear this?

User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6057 times:

LAX maybe but SFO would surprise me.

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks ago) and read 6041 times:

what makes you think DL or CO even WANT these slots.

um, the innumerable attempts they've made/lobbied for in order to gain access maybe?  Laugh out loud




Delta are the biggest airline across the pond (certainly the biggest US carrier, BA may carry more pax)

BA is significantly larger than DL over the Atlantic in terms of pax numbers and ASMs

DL is the largest of the USA carriers.

Interestingly enough, despite its highly limited number of markets, NW is larger over the Atlantic (ASMs) than CO, who serves three times as many destinations nonstop


User currently offlineSpeedport From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 284 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5870 times:

When TWA began selling routes it destroyed the morale.

The parallels are undeniable; although I am sure some dyed-in-the-wool cult members will try.

I'm sure many TWA employees said 'we will survive,' and for awhile they did, but only for awhile.

Airlines which have a future business plan hold on to their routes, even ones they are not using today. Airlines which are holding on by a thin thread toss the future out with the bathwater.

Remember, Pan Am went through the same downsizing and look at what happened to them. UAL has been dropping international destinations steadily, even before 9/11. Now their plan revolves around an LCO. Sound familiar?


User currently offlineN743AS From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 123 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

I heard BA was wanting to add another LHR flight to/from Seattle... It seems that Speedbird 48/49 are always full.

-743AS



If the airplane is one piece, don't cheat on it...ride the bastard down! -Ernest K. Ghann
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 5824 times:

As long as DL operates ATL-LGW, BA cannot operate LHR-ATL.

N


25 PVD757 : Have we forgotten about the Bermuda 2 agreement? You know, the one that says that VS, BA, AA, UA are the only US to LHR carriers? I don't think that B
26 Potomac : i think it's a bit of a stretch at this point to equate UA's selling of LHR slots to the beginnings of the ends for TWA and PanAm. these are 2 takeoff
27 Airbazar : PVD757, I'm not familiar with the details of Bermuda2, but I'm almost certain that VS, BA, AA, and UA are not the only airlines currently flying US to
28 AA777MIA : I believe PVD 757 is correct, I believe only AA, UA, VS and BA can serve the US LHR market. Air India may fly to the US from LHR, but isn't it a thru
29 CODC10 : NW has the higher ASM over CO due to the higher capacity of the DC-10s and 747s, now A330s as well. However, CO traditionally has higher transatlantic
30 Gigneil : AA, UA, VS, and BA are the only American/British airlines that serve the US from LHR. There are several other examples from other countries that opera
31 WorldTraveler : This just shows what a poor steward United has been of its valuable route authorities to LHR. It doesn't really matter where UA is getting them from,
32 United1 : I'm not sure if this interests anyone here but here's a breakdown of where the United slots are currently used for. Out of the original 40 4 were just
33 Post contains images Mariner : "Its much like the gates at Denver..." It is exactly like the gates at Denver. United has them and can do what they like with them. But I would have t
34 Post contains images AA717driver : StevenUhl and Potomac--I can assure you that when you are in bankruptcy ANY sale of ANY asset(and I disagree that these slots are not significant beca
35 Speedport : What this move would suggest is that United has put a price on it's assets The implication of this move cannot be understated. UA now doesn't have tho
36 Potomac : first of all, whats wrong with putting a price on your assets? in bankruptcy, i would think that is standard practice when you look at what you can ke
37 Mariner : Potomac: There's nothing wrong with putting a price on your assets. Most companies do it all the time, and I'm all in favor of UAL realizing what cash
38 Potomac : Well, if we compare the DEN A gates to the currently unused LHR slots, I do see the gates as assets for future growth. They are now likely to be used
39 Mariner : Potomac: Actually, I'm just jesting about the A gates at Denver. Like you, I assume they will be used by Starfish, and I don't think UAL would let the
40 Potomac : mariner - no doubt about the value of the heathrow slots, though UA's latest push to help get UA healthy again is Starfish and not Atlantic expansion,
41 N839MH : I wonder if the Pacific routes (UA) could fetch a healthy price? UA selling the Pacific routes for, lets say what they paid PA $400 million, that mone
42 Mariner : Potomac: You're switching horses on me. Either Starfish is going to operate out of A or it isn't. The great virtue is that it would give Starfish it's
43 Post contains images United1 : I agree Potomac...... Everyone says United must change and do things differently but when they do everyone says that its the end of the world United n
44 FLY777UAL : Hi...not sure if anyone has brought it up yet, but would these slots be used for BA's upcoming "pajama" flights between JFK and LHR? F L Y 7 7 7 U A L
45 Bosugadl : so let me get this striaght...UA has two BOS-LHR slots, but does not use them? Doesn't BA, AA and VS have rather high loads on these flights, especiac
46 Post contains images StevenUhl777 : Bosugadl: I believe the common agreement is that UA sold 2 JFK-LHR slots, 1 EWR-LHR slot, and 1 BOS-LHR slot. These routes were only marginally profit
47 Potomac : there were 4 slots, for 2 roundtrips....i think it was for bos and ewr but i'm not certain. even so, bos is likely to be more profitable for AA than U
48 WorldTraveler : The point must also be made that UA was more interested in short-term cash than future earnings based on the fact that they SOLD the slots and not LEA
49 Potomac : well yes, but given the partnership with LH and their LHR slots, i don't think UA's future service is permanently limited to what they have now. even
50 Post contains links and images Motech722 : I understand that this "deal" was completed in a blind e-auction staged by United, but the question I keep thinking about is if the price of these slo
51 Bosugadl : Stevenuhl777- I know that there are many carries to Europe from BOS, BA, VS, Aer Lingus, LH, SWISS, AZ, Iceland and AF.... I was saying that there are
52 UAL777 : I think that you are all only semi-right. UA flies from London to BRU and unless things have changed AMS. However, they only did this because they wan
53 AA777MIA : Do you think this has anything to do with raising cash for pending pension fund payments dues??
54 AA717driver : AA777MIA--word on the street is that the PBGC has warned UA about terminating their pension plans. The PBGC allegedly would tank if that happened...TC
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