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Should LOT Consider The 767-400?  
User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7999 times:

now, we all know that LOT flights in the peak seasons are completely filled to capacity. would the -400 be an economical option to use at those times? they could continue to operate the same routes, and carry more pax. personally , i would love to see the -400 in the LOT colours.


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineJaws707 From United States of America, joined Aug 2001, 708 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7851 times:

That sounds like it would be a good idea to capitalize on the seasonal demand, but the other side to that argument is during the winter their airplanes fly very empty, so the benefit of the 400 series would only be realized during those few months, and I am not sure that is enough to justify the purchase of new aircraft. Eventually they will need to replace the 767's and personally I believe it will be with the 7E7.

User currently offlineBAJMowiec From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7823 times:

Hi!

In off-peak seasons, they can fly WAW-JFK-ORD-WAW,all together, on a 764. That could work. Also, how about a return to the Far East ? Bangkok, Tokyo, Beijing, Singapore and Sydney, along with Melbourne (Sydney and Melbourne considering that many Poles left for Australia in early 80's, and settled massively in these 2 cities). So, a -400 could be ''worked'' in. Another possible replacement is the A332, which seems quite possible, considering factors such as the EU integration and the possible pressure from other European airlines to support Airbus, I mean that's just my thought, but it does seem logical.

Piotrek


User currently offline9V-SVC From Singapore, joined Oct 2001, 1797 posts, RR: 10
Reply 3, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7809 times:

Nope , they should consider the A330-200 instead. I feel that the A330 is a great horse to any fleet and will do a prefect job for LOT . The range and capacity is definately what LOT requires .


Airliners is the wings of my life.
User currently offlineBAJMowiec From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 99 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7787 times:

9V-SVC, I agree, the A332 would be great for far East Routes .. yes, I know I am getting on that case again, but I need to win some support  Smile/happy/getting dizzy back in 1990's LOT did Beijing, Bankgkok, Singapore and Delhi, now we don't go further than Moscow ! Come on, let's make a petition to LOT !!!!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Piotrek


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 7785 times:

I think A332 is the best choice and the most probable choice as 7E7 will not be ready at the time when LOT plans to replace current 767. The reliability of current 767 is not the best and I don't think they will go for new 767.

Considering strong partnership with Lufthansa A332 becomes even more probable.


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Isn't that beaty?  Big grin

Daniel


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 6, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 7668 times:

i'm down for the petition to LOT! Big grin

LOT will most likely stick with boeing when it comes to ordering new aircraft. LOT has a very good relationship with both boeing and the us govt. they are already flying a large boeing fleet and are complety self sufficient in terms of mx, they even have thier own paint house. pilots are trained to fly 2 major types of boeing a/c, meaning that they would only be hurting themselves buying airbus planes now. also, the planes operated by LOT are still capable of flying, i doubt that they will be replaced any time soon.

with regards to flights to australian, the 767-400ER may be the ideal platform for those. right now i'm unsure if they would be able to operate those legs nonstop but do think that it would be a very nice addition to the route structure. i'd love to go visit my family there on a LOT flight from WAW.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy



"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 7, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7584 times:

Nobody should order any more 767-400s, ever.

They're doing what they were designed to - replace CO and DL's old trijets.

N


User currently offlineCancidas From Poland, joined Jul 2003, 4112 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7553 times:

do you not like them? theyre a really capable airplanes, and should be used to the fullest of thier capabilities. otherwise, what's the point of even using it?


"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
User currently offlineKfrg From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 7520 times:

Gigneil, do you run an airline?


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7512 times:

The reliability of current 767 is not the best

Care to corroborate this [rather inane] comment...?


User currently offlineSllevin From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 3376 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7478 times:

The 767-400 would fit perfectly for LOT by allowing them to keep 763's where the extra capacity isn't needed, and they should get better economics out of the 764 that the A332, since they won't need to tote the extra 40,000 pounds of aircraft around...

But the 7E7 may be out in time. Who knows for sure?

Steve


User currently offlineCodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 7429 times:

No I don't think so.

Maybe they have a good relationship with the US, but bear in mind that Poland is joining the EU - so Airbus could be favoured. The F-16 tender was a bit tricky, so it could be Europe's turn now.

Even the 763's are not always fully utilised, so why an even bigger plane? Maybe increasing frequency would be better, by adding additional 762/3s.

And lot is joining Star Alliance, so a lot of traffic could be handled via FRA, MUC or other Star hubs, with LOT flying mainly North American routes.

The 767s are getting old, and since LH, SK, US Airways, OS have A330s, isn't that the direction LOT should go?

Even the Kenya Airways 764 order was switched to 763s and 777s right?



How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4753 posts, RR: 43
Reply 13, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7363 times:

Instead of ordering new B 764s, why dont they buy a few Delta B 764s which are configured in a high density manner mainly due for the Hawaii routes.

Or lease them from DL for the peak season. Surely DL wont mind giving them 2-3 B 764s as its guaranteed cash for them and in the summer season HAWAII aint that popular compared to Nov-Jan period.


User currently offlineIndustrialPate From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7332 times:

DL isn't interested in giving up any of its B764.

User currently offlineCodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 15, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7321 times:

Buy the DL 764's? Yeah, right. That is nonsense.

Why should LOT support DL's financial situation? They've got enough of their own problems.



How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
User currently offlineKonrad From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 522 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7254 times:

Doesn't the 767-400 have rather short range ? What is good enough for COs EWR-BRU might not be sufficient to make WAW/KrK - ORD with strong headwinds. Also, no improvement in cargo capacity over the 763 and 762s doesn't make it especially attractive. I would hope they go for 777s one day but that's probably dreaming. The only realistic option is 330 or 7E7 later on.

User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 17, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7230 times:

theyre a really capable airplanes, and should be used to the fullest of thier capabilities.

They're NOT a really capable airplane, and that's why they haven't sold to other carriers.

The 767-400ERX was to be the actually capable airplane, and it got shelved.

The 767-400ER wouldn't really run reliably WAW-ORD year round, not.

Gigneil, do you run an airline?

I don't, do you?

N


User currently offlineIloveek From Netherlands, joined May 2002, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 7208 times:

I'd rather see LOT ordering 332's then 7E7! I think the 332 is just perfect for LOT! And they indeed should NEVER order the 764! Nobody should do that! Gigneil is right!

User currently offlineJAL From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 5083 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7203 times:

Love to see LOT order the 767-400 but I think that will wait for the 7E7 instead.


Work Hard But Play Harder
User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 20, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7183 times:

I like the 764, but I don't think it could do the range.

**And they indeed should NEVER order the 764! Nobody should do that! Gigneil is right!**

Yeah ATA should order it to replace the L1011s on routes that the 757-300 isn't big enough to.

LOT should order a couple 777s


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 21, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7162 times:

Behramjee, why should LOT buy DL 764s configured in high density layout while, as Codeshare writes, even the 763s aren't always fully utilites? Wouldn't, if at all, a 764 in a more comfortable "international" layout make much more sense for them, considering this point?

But I still don't think that 764s are really the way to go for LOT - depending on when they want the replacements in the fleet, I suspect that the 332 or 7E7 will be front-runners - since they've, as I understand it, said that they want to replace their current 767s, I don't really see too much sense in them increasing the 767 fleet now, just to replace it within a relatively short timeframe.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineSPLOBKrakow From Poland, joined Sep 2003, 105 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7153 times:

Unfortunatelly LOT will have to start replacing their 767. It's not resonable to think that they will wait for the 7E7. I think that their best choice right now would be 777. As mentioned before they do have a good relationship with Boeing, and the chances of LOT purchasing anything form Airbus seems very slim.

I think the 777 would look very nice in LOT's livery  Smile



User currently offlineIloveek From Netherlands, joined May 2002, 107 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7122 times:

*I think the 777 would look very nice in LOT's livery*

Yeah definetily, but LOT has to get a NEW livery first!


User currently offlineHlywdCatft From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (10 years 9 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 7112 times:

They should buy the 777, take out a bunch of seats and give people a lot of leg room if they are worried about not selling every seat.

25 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : They should buy the 777, take out a bunch of seats and give people a lot of leg room if they are worried about not selling every seat. ....and charge
26 Mlsrar : I see we have a number of armchair-CEOs in this thread again, coupled with a list of behind-the-screen consultants who are obviously far more informed
27 Codeshare : The 764 is not in LOT's niche. And the 777 would prove too big. Even the 332 is a bit too big, but its a wiser choice.
28 Kl911 : I think they will go for the A330-200 since the 767 has proven to be to unreliable for them. With the A330-200 they get a proven modern quality plane
29 Trvlr : I think they will do one of two things: 1) Buy A330-200s to replace the 767s. 2) If the 7E7 becomes a reality, lease some A332s until committing to a
30 Bobs89irocz : With the last couple of post makeing good points....they should either buy NEW 763. OR wait and see what they do with the star alliance/wait for the 7
31 Cancidas : the 777 definately has too much capacity for LOT. true, the 767s do fly part empty but that is only in the off seasons. cargo capacity is not really n
32 SPLOBKrakow : "Yeah definetily, but LOT has to get a NEW livery first!" I don't think there is a need for new liverly! The one they have now is going to be very har
33 Cancidas : summers are extremely difficult to find seat on LOT. but even if they did use a 777 then, they'd have it packed.
34 Danny : Only in the summer. During a winter season there's a lot of empty seats. 777 is definitely too much. I think the only choices they consider are 7E7 an
35 Gigneil : I can think of some other less-capable airframes which are also niche aircraft that haven't sold that great either...the 736 and 318 come to mind. Th
36 Boeing4ever : I think they will go for the A330-200 since the 767 has proven to be to unreliable for them. With the A330-200 they get a proven modern quality plane
37 Sllevin : The 767-400ER wouldn't really run reliably WAW-ORD year round WAW-ORD is 300 miles shorter than EWR-HNL, takes a more polar route (less headwind) and
38 Kl777jfk : The A330-300 is a great alternative! And a very comfortable one at that! The 767-400, is a very odd aircraft. I believe that the 767-400, will be abou
39 Gigneil : The A330-300 is way big IMHO. The 764 is closest to the 332 in size, and the 332 is a bit bigger. I think LOT will be well served by the 763 for some
40 SPLOBKrakow : See the only reason why I suggested the 777 is because of the new alliance with United. Since this partnership will allow then to expand their routes
41 Cancidas : will a 777 fit into the gates at warszawa and krakow? one other thing to consider. type rating for aircraft are large expenses. take that 10K bill and
42 Post contains links and images SPLOBKrakow : I think they will fit into the gate @ Warsaw View Large View MediumPhoto © Krzysztof Skowronski [epwa_spotters] not too sure about Krakow, howeve
43 HlywdCatft : **I think they will go for the A330-200 since the 767 has proven to be to unreliable for them. With the A330-200 they get a proven modern quality plan
44 Codeshare : I've seen it a few times there and it was parked at stands without the gates. Two gates can accomodate 747-400s and the rest 767-300s. So the 744s can
45 LOT767-300ER : "not too sure about Krakow, however there is no way that LOT would fly a 777 into Krakow. They don't even fly their 767 there on a regular basis." Wha
46 Post contains links and images Iloveek : *I don't think there is a need for new liverly! The one they have now is going to be very hard to beat.* Hard to beat? You must be joking! Just look:
47 Post contains links and images Gdabski : Not too sure about Krakow, however there is no way that LOT would fly a 777 into Krakow. They don't even fly their 767 there on a regular basis. What
48 SPLOBKrakow : How often do they fly KRK-ORD????? I know flights for YYZ to KRK are only available durring the summer time. As far as I know there are not regular al
49 Post contains images CPH-R : SPLOBKrakow, that picture suggests that it was being parked at a remote stand
50 Post contains links and images SPLOBKrakow : "that picture suggests that it was being parked at a remote stand " I guess I should have picked a better picture. I think if a 747 fits in the gate a
51 LOT767-300ER : Year round service....
52 Post contains images Codeshare : "Physically" it can fit, but like I said it's not on the docking system, and I'm not too sure if the gate woulkd go as high as the door of a 777. BTW,
53 SPLOBKrakow : 717 does not have the range to make a trip to North America. They also have the ERJ-145, ATR-42, ATR-72 and 737 to cover the European Routes.
54 Post contains images Jarek : I am sure Codeshare did not mean 717 for the transatlantic flights 717 would be eventually the competitor for ERJ170/190. Well, it's too late anyway.
55 Danny : Good example of reliability of LOT's 767 today - flight to USA has been cancelled dur to technical problems. Passengers were sent via FRA, LHR, and CP
56 SPLOBKrakow : Lets not be silly, every airline has technical problem at one point or another. That does not mean that the planes are not reliable, stuff like that h
57 Jarek : I am really falling down seeing such silly statements like the one from Danny. How can you talk about reliability of anything bringing one example? Be
58 Danny : You should have checked better sources. Seems you don't have idea how often they have delays and sometimes cancellations due to tech problems. It is n
59 Cancidas : Airline executives should really pick the aircraft type based on looks only. are you serious? total armchair ceo comment. danny, where did LOT officia
60 SPLOBKrakow : Danny Where do you get you "accurate" information??? Can you guide us to a web site??? I would really like to read about all the delays and technical
61 Leskova : Just to finish off the point about LOT's flights to the USA being cancelled yesterday, this is what I just took out of AMADEUS: LOT FLIGHT LO001/20OCT
62 Jarek : Daniel, You are right, I have no idea about how often LOT has the delays in 767 fleet due to the technical problems. And guess what - I make no statem
63 Danny : Go to group pl.rec.lotnictwo and serach it. You'll find a lot of interesting stories about reliability. I never said though it is 66% so don't put it
64 HlywdCatft : **Airline executives should really pick the aircraft type based on looks only are you serious? total armchair ceo comment.** No I was making a sarcast
65 Jarek : Daniel, I am reading pl.rec.lotnictwo for last two years. I don't remember 767 reliability stories. However I looked into the group archive right now
66 SPLOBKrakow : pl.rec.lotnictow It will not let me subscribe to the site. Is there any other way I can read about these incidents???? thanks
67 Cancidas : danny, how about providing the info. some of us don't have the time to go searching for stuff that don't exist.
68 BN747 : It's no secret I'm a Boeing dude...I have to say that I think the A330-200 is also a better match for LOT. The 767s have done a great job in bring LOT
69 JGPH1A : What with joining the EU (and possibly the Euro ?), WAW is well placed to become a connecting point between western Europe and the Far East / South Ea
70 Post contains links and images Danny : Exaclty JGPH1A - something like this: http://www.simnetair.com/forumplvatsim/download.php?id=3201 Daniel
71 Post contains images Cancidas : danny, nie mamy zezwolenia. JGPH1A, thanks on the livery!
72 Danny : Jakiego zezwolenia???
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