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Program on French TV about the concorde crash in Paris  
User currently offlineKl911 From Czech Republic, joined Jul 2003, 5147 posts, RR: 15
Posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6362 times:


Just something that's been bothering me for the last 24 hours:

Yesterday I saw a program on French TV about the concorde crash in Paris. Some experts stated that the Concorde could have aborted take off but that the pilot didn't do so because he knew the French president Chirac and his wife were in a JAL 747 which was holding short at the end of the same runway, on the left side. Since it was the left engine that was on fire the concorde was moving towards the left during the take off run heading for the 747. In fact, it flew just 60 yards over the 747 when the pilot decided to take off. There were also statements that the engine was already on fire before it hits the piece of metal. What do you guys think of this?

KL911

13 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineDoorsToManual From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6265 times:

Hi

I think the real truth about this event still isn't clear.

Discovery Channel have been airing quite a controversial programme on this tragic event - controversial because the programme basically puts the entire blame on Air France, specifically bad maintenance practises and a number of errors committed by the flightcrew on that day.

You might find this thread interesting:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1219880/4/

Who knows...I certainly don't.

rgds


User currently offline707cmf From France, joined Mar 2002, 4885 posts, RR: 29
Reply 2, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6140 times:

I haven't seen the program on the French TV, but fellow French pilots saw it (some of them being AF, others just GA pilots), and they agreed on the fact that the 'show' was utter cr*p.

They apparently stated a lot of facts, most of those having never happened (like a disagreament between the Captain and FO, which never happened in reality)...

I wouldn't base too many worries on this show (according to the TV giude, the second part of that program was about the "Truth on Lady Diana death" - more tabloid like than anything else)

Cheers,

707


User currently offlineDonder10 From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 6660 posts, RR: 21
Reply 3, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6043 times:

The style of the show may have been tabloid-esque but the main points it raised were rather pertinent if it was anything like the one on Discovery.


They apparently stated a lot of facts, most of those having never happened (like a disagreament between the Captain and FO, which never happened in reality)...
What other facts did they state that were incorrect?There may well have been a disagreement between the EO and the captain given the EO shut one of the engines down when he shouldn't have!


User currently offlineDanialanwar From Switzerland, joined Mar 2001, 421 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5988 times:

sounds like crap to me. If you notice trouble before V1 you abort, after that you dont. I believe the investigation quite clearly showed that the pilots only knew after V1 that there are problems.

On top of that, just wondering what is the FRENCH president doing in a JAL aircraft? Thought he has his own plane or at least fly Air France. And i dont think he puts his detailed itineraries onto the web, with flight numbers and all, so how could the pilots know ...

Furthermore, wont the left drift stop once you kill your engines or reverse to right drift if you engage thrust reverse (dont know if Concorde has it)



Best Business Class: Royal Brunei. Best Economy: Singapore Airlines. First: please send money first!
User currently offlineVirgin744 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 919 posts, RR: 4
Reply 5, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5853 times:

There's a very good link to a report by an investigative journalist for the Guardian newspaper, in a thread somewhere. I saw it the other day. It talks about many factors, the 747, the spacer missing from the last maintenance, the excess luggage put on at the last minute etc etc. If I get time I'll look for it.

virgin744


User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1872 posts, RR: 16
Reply 6, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5721 times:

I have seen this crap yesterday.
Nothing new.
On the trascripts of the CVR, you see no dispute between captain and co-pilot. (they are on the BEA website)
The tower wanted Concorde to come back to CDG, which was irrealistic. The FO says "Negative, we are trying LBG". "Too late" by the captain is just a comment, because he understands that even if LBG runway is visible and close, it is too far away.

If you look at http://www.bea-fr.org/docspa/2000/f-sc000725a/pdf/appendix12p.pdf you can see that the tyre has been destroyed long after V1 (V1= first blue flag; marks of tyre dammage= first green flag; CTR signal the fire= 3rd flag)

About Chirac in a JAL aircraft: He was coming back from a private trip, not an official (remember, it was in July) Day 1, everyone knew Chirac was there and coming back from Japan. The only thing I learned is that it was not an AF plane, but a JAL....

ANd about the quality of the investigation... They say that AF Concorde boarding is at Terminal 1 in CDG...

Teva



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13220 posts, RR: 77
Reply 7, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 5528 times:

First I've heard anywhere about the E/O and Capt having a disagreement, the E/O shut no.2 engine down then told the Capt he'd done it, or the Capt just acknowlegded the fact, he had no time to do anything else really.
Should he have shut this engine down when he did, about 25 feet off the ground?
You'll have to read the section in the pilots manual which deals with these sort of procedures, I have!
What about the change of wind direction? Why no runway change when the tower told the crew of it? Why was the C of G not recalculated to take account of this?
Where is the loadsheet for this flight? The cockpit did not burn and where are the other copies?
If the missing spacer was not important, why have taxi tests taken place without a spacer in the L/H main gear in recent months?
They are the questions we want answered, and I got to read he report on the Feb 19th diversion to Halifax recently too.


User currently offlineTeva From France, joined Jan 2001, 1872 posts, RR: 16
Reply 8, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5421 times:

GDB, about the taxi tests, are you reffering to the tests conducted in TLS, just after the AF Concorde retirement?
If yes, those test have been conducted by the French justice, to verify iof it had any impact on the disaster, or no impact as claimed by BEA and AF.
In this case, as per the French judiciar system, the results will become public at the time of the trial (probably next year)

What may create confusion is that there is a dual inquiry.
By the BEA: has to be public asap, and explain the technical cause and prevent any new accident.
By the justice: to determine the responsabilities. In this case, we have the "secret de l'instruction". Finding of the inquiry become public when the inquiry is complete, and the results transmitted to the court.

Teva



Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 9, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 5413 times:

GDB, you have referred to the Halifax diversion a few times recently. Where can I get more info on this event? Thanks.


But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13220 posts, RR: 77
Reply 10, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5253 times:

Most of my info on the Feb 19th diversion comes from a report from Rolls Royce, not AFAIK on line.
What our pilots who simulated the event on the sim at Filton told us as well, plus what you hear on the grapevine generally, Concorde is a small community.


User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5185 times:

Can you shed any light on what you know? I have the impression that the event was more serious than it appears on first look.


But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offline777236ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 5175 times:

Had the crew aborted take off, as soon as they knew something was wrong, Concorde would have left the runway travelling at 74kts to 115kts. The fire started after V1 and before VR - the crew did what was expected of them.

User currently offlineFLYSSC From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 7412 posts, RR: 57
Reply 13, posted (10 years 11 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 5141 times:

- On July 25th 2000, French President Jacques CHIRAC was on board an Air France B747-400, flight AF275 from NRT. That flight landed ahead of schedule at 4:40PM LT. (normal chedule is 5:20PM LT) on runaway 26L at CDG and was holding to cross 26R where F-BTSC was ready for T-O.

- The Japanese passenger who took the famous pictures showing Concorde F-BTSC taking off in flames, was on board this same flight AF275, and NOT on board a JAL plane bound TO NRT, as it was said in many news papers.

- There was NO engine on fire when Concorde took off.

- Do you really think that a Captain, of any kind of aircraft, having such a problem during a take-off is going to think to avoid a Presidential Plane waiting somewhere on the tarmac ???
C.Marty probably didn't even know that J.Chirac was there, in a B744...and could certainly not see the a/c from his seat when he pulled up.

- The tank explosion and the fire started before V1. But the Crew didn't know it yet. They had the first alarm AFTER V1 "engine on fire" and it was actually a false alrm, as the engine n°2 was NOT on fire, but suffered from ingestion of various pieces of tyres/gears/fuel tank, as well as engine n°1. They probably also both suffered from "fuel exhaustion" because of the damages in the fuel tanks and different the pipes bringing the fuel to the engines. Don't forget that at the speed of the Concorde during the take-off run, it took only 2 or 3 seconds between the tank explosion/Blaze and V1

- You don't ABORT A TAKE OFF after V1. That's why a V1 is decided. That's the basic rule during a Take-off. "If the crew had known..." and if my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle...

The Crew didn't know the danger of the situation. They had an alarm of "engine on fire". That's it, and an indication from the ATC who told them "AF4590, you have flames behind you...".
They didn't know yet about the fuel leak, the fuel tank explosion, the hydraulic failure, the gear that would not retract etc...

This ridiculous TV show last evening on the Franch TV, was just another bullshit...


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