DeltaGuy From United States, joined Sep 2001, 4138 posts, RR: 27 Posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13473 times:
This issue has probably been beat to death before, but I saw the photos of the TWA wreckage from the other post, and thought I'd try to get a consensus from the group, as I have to write a paper here soon, and thought I'd write about the theories on the aircraft's crash.
My personal opinion...Surface to Air Missile shootdown by an Arab terrorist, aiming for an El Al 747, but hit the TWA 747, as their departure order had been flip-flopped last minute. I believe the fueltank thing was a total coverup, because if Israel had lost their 747, there would have been a bloody holy war. Just my .02 cents, trying not to bring politics and religion in lol.
Anybody have any thoughts? R.I.P. TWA 800.
DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
PUDFW From United States, joined Sep 2003, 93 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13334 times:
Anyone else find it interesting that the media has largely left that alone. I mean those of you who are really familiar with airplanes does the explanation actually make any sense?
My belief is that it was terrorist related, the eyewitness accounts would be consistent with that. I think the government covered it because of political reasons. There was a Clinton election that year, perhaps that was a reason, they didn't want to worry the American public. I know some of that may sound odd but Id be interested to hear other people's opinions.
Jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10017 posts, RR: 27 Reply 2, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13299 times:
yes, it's been discussed to death.
The only people who say it was shot down are people who want to keep the conspiracy theories alive in the hope they'll be able to sue the US government for a few billion some day.
There was simply nothing in the area that could have shot it down, period.
The altitude and location would have necessitated a fairly advanced large missile like a Patriot or SM2MR.
Such a weapon requires a frigate sized ship, and there were none within range.
DeltaGuy From United States, joined Sep 2001, 4138 posts, RR: 27 Reply 4, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13267 times:
PUDFW,
Good point, I think the media and govt didn't do it as it would have worried people. I find it odd that the other possible explanations were avoided, and everyone hurriedly went to the fuel tank excuse, even though there were other options staring it in their face.
Don't you all think that, had we known airliner terrorism was a threat, we might have been a *tad* more prepared for 911? Just a thought. Election might have had much to do with it too.
I don't think the center fuel tank thing was a legit excuse...they inspected 747's afterwards IIRC, and it wasn't an actual problem, unlike other accidents where they're found similar problems on similar airframes. The general public isn't smart enough to even think of any of these theories..all they do is refuse to fly!
Thanks for the help.
DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
N844AA From United States, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13242 times:
Call me naive, but I generally trust my government to tell the truth and to do the right thing. (I recognize that something it cannot tell the truth or sometimes it does not want to. But in those cases, I believe that more often than not there exists someone in the bureaucracy in whose interest it is to get the truth out and who will do so one way or another.) But more than that, I trust the professionals at the NTSB to ascertain and publicize the precise causes of the accidents they are charged to investigate. I won't deny that they are entirely free from political pressure, or haven't made mistakes in the past, but the engineers, aviators and other members of that organization are men and women of integrity -- and all it would take is one of them to speak (or leak) the truth to bring an entire conspiratorial house of cards crashing down.
There is no doubt in my mind that TWA 800 was brought down by a mechanical failure.
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
Redngold From United States, joined Mar 2000, 6907 posts, RR: 56 Reply 7, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13230 times:
This topic should be retired lik Boeing vs. Airbus.
So, for a standard topic I will give my standard response:
For those of us who lost loved ones on TWA 800, bringing up this topic time and time again does no good and simply reopens the wound. Please stop bringing this up and let our friends and family rest in piece.
RIP Patty and Kim Kwiat.
redngold
Borderline Personality Disorder - it's not just for fence sitters. (Slogans courtesy of friends in psych rotations)
Lhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 8, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13237 times:
Events surrounding TWA 800
-President Clinton was on television hours later saying how saddened he was by the loss of life
-Onlookers on Long Island, New York that stated they saw something rocketing in the direction of the airplane... were very quietly shut up less than a month later
-Military exercises were performed on that evening
-Air France/Virgin Atlantic reported being told of "Military Exercises", in the route of TWA 800. Of which Air France and Virgin Atlantic were told to fly around.
-Pierre Salinger was completely discredited by the U.S. government
The aircraft originated in Athens flying to JFK, with a delayed arrival causing the delayed departure to Paris.
The flight was a combination of 800 to Paris and TWA's second flight to Rome which was cancelled. The new re-routed flight was due to operate to Rome from Paris. This was the reason for the double crewing onboard the 747.
The most puzzling of all is that the FAA came out an essentially stated that the cause was due to a central fuel tank explosion. Subsequently aircraft were to have been retrofitted with new "explosion, ignition proof" fuel tanks.
We were then to believe that airliners could just implode in the air?
We know one thing. The people in the United States seems to have been told much less about what happened than the Air France and Virgin Atlantic crews!
DeltaGuy From United States, joined Sep 2001, 4138 posts, RR: 27 Reply 9, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13187 times:
LHR001,
Thanks for all the good facts...especially the mil exercises, and the other a/c being told to stear clear. Someone mentioned patriot missles, and a frigate not being nearby. IIRC, the Navy was around the waters...but would they admit it if they did do something wrong? I'd HATE to see it happen, because it did before (with the Iran Air A300), but that was a foreign airliner.
Fishing for ideas, thanks for putting up with the redundant post. Don't retire it though.
DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
Copaair737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 10, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13187 times:
I think it was a shootdown. I think it was covered up so the americans wouldnt be worried. It makes you wonder what else the government isnt telling you. I for one sure wouldnt trust the US government.
Startvalve From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 11, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13179 times:
As much as I would love to stick Clinton's intern banging lie fest administration with yet another scandal/cover-up I have to say it was something internal to the airplane. If a terrorist group like Osama Da Bombas missile totin' cronies decided to take down a 747 don't you think they might want credit for it? I would think they would have a considerable investment in resources, time, and well just dumb luck in doing that so isn't it a certainty they would brag? Terrorist get their power from terror. Making people fear flying. They would have run a 30 minute infomercial on Al-Jazeera if they had actually pulled a stunt like that off and missed getting credit on US TV.
Just to make it clear. I would love to think it was a SAM but really the facts outside the actual wreck do not add up to a terrorist event.
STT757 From United States, joined Mar 2000, 11566 posts, RR: 52 Reply 12, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 13175 times:
TWA was not shot down by a misile, atleast a shoulder fired misile.
Shoulder fired misiles are heat seeking, they would have gone for one of the engines not the belly of the aircraft.
That kind of negates the terrorist with a shoulder fired misile, also no one ever took responsibility for shooting down TWA flight 800.
Terrorists usualy like to boast about their attacks, even if they were aiming at an El Al flight they still would have been bragging about bringing down a US Airliner.
And for the theorists who claim the US Military shot it down by accident, they are not factoring in...
The US Military is all volunteer, they are not slaves who are beaten, tortured into keeping secrets.
If a misile was fired from a US Naval warship that hit TWA flight 800 alot of sailors would have known about it, having them keep it a secret is tough especialy considering how much money they would make from a book etc spilling the beans.
Also the US military training area to which the previous poster refered to is off the Coast of NJ, it's an active training area for local units from the Air Force, Navy, NJ, NY, DE, PA ANG etc..
It's also a non-live fire excersise range, live fire excersises (at the time) were conducted at the Naval Weapons training area on the Island of Vieques Puerto Rico.
"'Brown Sugar' could save the world..." Eddie Vedder 10/14/97 Oakland, California
HlywdCatft From United States, joined Jan 2001, 5321 posts, RR: 9 Reply 13, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13144 times:
It wouldnt be the first time that the government didn't admit to a mistake.
Look at the Itavia Dc-9 that was shot down in June of 1980 in Italy. It took 10 years for NATO to finally admit it accidentally shot it down during training excercises. So maybe we will find out in 2006 what really happened to TWA Flight 800.
Jhooper From United States, joined Dec 2001, 6083 posts, RR: 16 Reply 14, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13139 times:
I personally don't buy the "fuel tank explosion" story. I can't say for sure because I'm not an expert, but I don't think fuel tanks just explode at random; otherwise this would probably happen way more often. This plane was blown to bits and pieces that were spread for miles over the ocean; there's no way to really rule anything out. Too many eyewitnesses contradict what the FBI/NTSB came up with, so one would be naive to rule out the possibility of some kind of coverup. I can't say what happened as I have not seen much of the evidence, but my gut feeling is that it was a terrorist attack; note that security was beefed up significantly after the crash. Also, explosive residue was found on wreckage. It's possible the government realized that the airline industry and economy would have been crushed (much like after 9/11) had fear been instilled in the American public (again, just like what happened after 9/11). I suppose the government would have covered up for the 9/11 terrorists too, but that was something that just couldn't be hidden; it was too obvious.
[Edited 2003-10-28 06:50:14]
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
Dc10guy From United States, joined Feb 2000, 2685 posts, RR: 8 Reply 15, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13113 times:
I know what happened. If you guys promise not to tell, I will tell you O.K. Hillary Clintons secret team of all lesbian commandos where having "missile" practice on Long Island sound when for no reason one of them went "a little funny" in the head and shot down TWA800. Bill Clinton agreed to cover it up but in return Hillary would have to let him have an affair with an intern. That's what happened.
Next time try the old "dirty Sanchez" She'll love it !!!
Iberia340600 From Spain, joined Oct 2003, 804 posts, RR: 19 Reply 16, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13085 times:
I dont think it was terrorist related, but I do believe it was "mistakenly" shot down by the military.
For one, I was working at JFK when TWA 800 exploded. I knew people in operations and saw the flight maps and where TWA was flying when it was shot down...it was right on the border area of military training excercises. A friend of mine that works in catering lives out on LI and said he could many times see military aircraft doing practice training and doing stupid maneuvers(a.k.a. fooling around). It is totally feasible that it was shot down by accident and covered up so as not to look like idiots.
To further prove my theory, take a look at the pictures of the reconstructed TWA plane. Now if the theory of the center fuel tank exploding is true, wouldn't the body of the airplane show signs of explosion(i.e. metal body burst outwards). But take a look at the pictures....from the bottom it shows signs of implosion(metal body folds inwards) and the top shows signs of explosion(metal body folding outwards). Does anyone else see this? Isnt it just a bit curious???
In any case, we will never know the truth, especially if it is a cover up. I totally do not buy the center fuel tank explosion...thats for sure. I have spoken to many mechanics and they say it is just too unlikely for something like that to happen....also, on a flight to Paris, the center fuel tank most probably would not have been used since a flight between JFK and PAR does not require as much fuel as say a JFK-TLV.
N844AA From United States, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 3 Reply 17, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13067 times:
A center fuel tank explosion may be unlikely, but how many 747's take to the sky each day? How many of them explode without warning? Basically, my rejection of conspiracy theories and coverups is due to this question: What is more likely: An uncommon, unfortunate confluence of factors resulting in center tank combustion, or a conspiracy involving thousands of soldiers, sailors, radar operators, investigators and law enforcement officials to cover up not-exactly-unprecented behavior by the U.S. military (i.e., the accidental shootdown of an airliner)?
For me, it's the former. If it were possible to cover up such an event, why didn't the Navy try to do it after the Vincennes incident?
[Edited 2003-10-28 07:20:03]
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
Lhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 18, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13049 times:
In reference to the above-
Who here recalls the media and such interviewing the pilots of the military plane that was in the air that evening?
Who here recalls that the pilot has not been on television or spoken of since??
Who here recalls the pilot and the crew having different versions of the kind of explosion that they saw out of the window of their aircraft?
The explosion was so forceful that it blew pieces of the First Class dinner plates into the sides of the fuselage.
The explosion caused the nose section to break off an spiral down whimsically 13,000 feet to the ocean
The explosion caused the section rear of the nose to shoot upwards into the night sky, then after a continued climb the aircraft (what was left from the boarding door aft) fell at incredible speeds to the ocean below
So, we are to believe that airplanes can just combust??
CIA - Dream Version
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/RANCHO/CRASH/TWA/CIAVIDEO/ciavideo.html
Okay, well... I have a couple of brand new DC-3's to sell you!
Does anyone here remember back in July, 1988... How the U.S. military "accidentally" shotdown an IRANAIR A300! This murdered the lives of over 200 innocent souls!
B747skipper From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 19, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13059 times:
My opinion as a 747 pilot is that TW800 did not blow up by itself...
Two thirds, maybe three quarter of 747 crewmembers will tell you same.
xxx
(s) Skipper -
Pan Am 1969-1991 - 747 captain
USAF Reserve - E-4 (747) instructor pilot
Cargolux 747 captain 1992-1993
Aerolineas Argentinas 747 pilot training manager since 1993...
Aviatortj From United States, joined Jul 2003, 1786 posts, RR: 11 Reply 20, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 13019 times:
People rely on eyewitness accounts all the time. The fact is that these accounts are not very reliable. A few years back we did a project in Psychology, along with a Dateline special, about how people or their minds fill in the blanks. What they did is sent a random student in a classroom, caused a distraction, then took the professor's purse, and immediately ran out. The students did not know they were being tested, so when they were being questioned by the police they thought it was for a real suspect. When asked what color the suspect was wearing many of them got the colors of the clothes wrong! Half of them did not even remember if it was a guy or a girl!
I also have another instance of failing eyewitness accounts. When I was being interviewed by the local PD last week, the investigator said that the Nightly News with Dan Rather said there was a prison break in Texas. Within two hours, they already had 12 calls saying the suspect had been spotted in North Dakota.
IMHO, I have had enough experience in the field of eyewitness reliability, besides these two stories, to conclude that chances saying something that these people "complete the story" in their mind.'
------------
Take that into consideration when you only think 800 was shot down because of eyewitnesses. Let this topic and the souls aboard TWA800 rest in peace!!
Qantasguy From United States, joined Oct 2003, 106 posts, RR: 0 Reply 22, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12990 times:
I certainly understand the sensitivity of this topic, however, it is one that has intrigued me for a while. With all due respect I would like to comment. I remember the night well. I got in from work and watched the coverage all night. The eye witnesses stated clearly that a rocket like object was seen heading towards the aircraft. It was confirmed that there were military vessels in the area doing exercises and that this could be the probable cause. By the morning however, these reports were nowhere to be found, and I haven't heard a thing regarding them since. I have read the NTSB report and do not come to the same conclusion as they do. Why is this 747 flight the first of hundreds of thousands to have this happen. I understand that it takes more than a spark to ignite avgas, and for electrical wiring to ignite vapors, is highly unlikely. It also doesn't seem likely that a fully laden 747 would have an empty center fuel tank on a trans-Atlantic flight. Are there wires that run through a fuel tank? If the truth had been published, it would have effected the economy in a terrible way, and the trust that would have been lost would have done extensive damage to the industry. Of course, I don't know what happened, but I don't believe the NTSB do ether, or if they do, they're not letting on. I actually have not met ANYONE who buys the NTSC story. Airline buffs or not. My thoughts and prayers do go out to the families who are left with out their loved ones, and I hope one day the truth is known and something can be done to save this from happening again.
N844AA From United States, joined Jul 2003, 1352 posts, RR: 3 Reply 23, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12987 times:
I just still don't understand why the truth of this incident would be covered up, assuming it was not solely a center fuel tank explosion.
The United States has always been a remarkably open country -- Tocqueville saw it, it existed at the beginning of the manned space program when we launched our rockets with the whole world watching, and I think it still exists today, despite John Ashcroft's best efforts to the contrary. I think, in general, it would be accurate to say that we've historically been unafraid to fail in the eyes of the world. And lord knows we've done so, but the public scrutiny has also often driven the U.S. to meet a higher standard of performance and openness.
I suppose it doesn't really work to apply abstract principles and tendencies like these to an airline accident investigation, but I just can't figure out why this accident is the one for which the true cause was obscured. The U.S. Navy stonewalled somewhat after the Vincennes shot down the Iranian airliner, but the truth was revealed. PA 103 was brought down by an act of terror, but there was no coverup there. If TW 800 is attributable to an act similar to either of these, why bother to engineer a costly, ultimately untenable coverup? This country has committed and suffered each of them in the past, and has embraced the truth. Hell, even in the case of KAL 007, the truth managed to emerge from a totalitarian, closed, uberparanoid society. Why not here?
My objection to the conspiracy theory is not grounded at all on the technical side of things. My knowledge is woefully limited there. Instead it's based on these objections I've tried to outline -- the United States as a historically open society and the monumental difficulties of keeping a vast, wide-ranging conspiracy secret. I am fully open to the prospect that something aside from the center fuel tank brought down TW 800. While I would enjoy hearing speculation on what it might be, I'm more interested in plausible reasons why it would not be revealed and how it could have remained secret this entire time. Or is the truth as simple as a factual discovery that eluded the NTSB investigators?
New airplanes, new employees, low fares, all touchy-feely ... all of them are losers. -Gordon Bethune
LHR001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 24, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12992 times:
aviatortj,
You are blaming the eyewitnesses... or saying that we are basing our inquiry as to what they have said?
The reason from my point of view is having a father that is a retired 747 Pilot, and a mother who is a retired Cabin Purser. My apologies that you feel the way that you do. When you grow up and fly on these magnificent birds, you know what is and what isn't. To let this (the TWA 800) investigation die, would be to not honor those wonderful people that were lost!
To many people have forgotten about Itavia, IranAir, and Pan Am. We will not let that happen to TWA 800!
Lhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 25, posted (5 years 8 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 12979 times:
N844AA,
Pan Am 103, was in direct relation to the United States bringing down Iran Air in July of 1988!
United States, Innocent??? NO
Fail in the eyes of the World! - By admitting truth?
26 Garnetpalmetto: As a correction to one thing stt757 stated, the more recent generation of shoulder-launched IR SAMS do NOT hone in on engines necessarily, but rather
27 Cfalk: Fuel tanks HAVE in fact been known to explode, on rare occasions. Remember the Thai 737 a few years ago? There have been others as well. It is exceedi
28 Lhr001: CFalk, Since you are an expert... Tell all of us- Why did the President come on national television only hours later? Why did more than 50 eyewitnesse
29 JMChladek: Well, I've read the reports myself and I consider the fuel tank to be the most plausible explanation as well. First of all, there was apparently an in
30 Aviatortj: I think you are fine to have your inquiries. I am only saying that witnesses are not a reliable source. After reading reports, these are refuted. I wa
31 Cfalk: I don't have all the answers, and I have more things to do than researching all this to refute every claim. Why did the President come on national tel
32 Iberia340600: The fuel tank theory is just not plausible. How many times did the NTSB and FBI change their story as to what may have caused people to see the white
33 N844AA: Iberia340600, for you to make a statement like that impugns the honor of the investigators of the NTSB, not to mention several million other governmen
34 Motech722: This thread is interesting, and it's difficult to convince each other if it was the fuel tank or is a conspiracy theory. Some people that have posted
35 Iberia340600: N844AA: Well, we all have our own opinions so we shall leave it at that. I have my beliefs and you have yours, thats what makes us different. All I as
36 Cfalk: but I have experienced enough to know not to judge a book by its cover. Certainly not. But how about when a thousand different books (all the investig
37 Lhr001: N844AA, CFALK, It is nice that you have your own ideals in this subject. An opposing point of view is why we are here. We are here to discuss aviation
38 4holer: Just want to let the newbies here who may be surprised that the majority of responders to this thread seem to be pro-conspiracy, that the majority in
39 LHR001: 4holer, It is aviation and this is an aviation forum!
40 N844AA: Lhr001: There was a good account in either Newsweek or the Washington Post about the Vincennes accident (the Iranian A300). Let me see if I can find i
41 Cfalk: It took over 10 years for the victims on Pan Am 103 to even recieve recognition from the U.S.! Say what?!? The U.S. got Libya pushed right off the wor
42 B747skipper: Some of you do mention that there was a possibility that the center wing tank wiring to the two center wing tank boost pumps of that aircraft, could h
43 Lhr001: B747Skipper, Very well stated! Why is it than many Americans care to forget that 5 months prior to the tragic and horrid loss of 103, the U.S. blew up
44 Lhr001: N844AA, Do you recall Itavia??? Have you read the reports in reference to Itavia? ... case in point! In broad daylight.. a missle just happens to hit
45 B747skipper: This matter of TW800, and having the US officials admitting that, indeed, the aircraft may have been shot down, touches a touchy political subject...
46 N757KW: If terrorist shot TWA 800 down then why no claim, hey we did it! If the US Government did it, then find hard evidence of the cover up! Otherwise it wi
47 Alpha 1: Hey, did the let all the inmates out of the asylum on the same day? I think Elvis used a Stinger to do it, and he had JFK helping him, too.
48 N844AA: But Skipper, don't you think in today's political climate, it would be supremely advantageous for the Bush administration to uncover a TW 800 conspira
49 B747skipper: Dear N844AA xxx Let us not get away fron TW800 and discuss politics here. I agree with you that many "files" should be opened - but that is up the Was
50 N844AA: Sorry, Skipper, not my intention to bring politics into the mix -- more trying to make a point about the nature of conspiracies. I always hate to see
51 Richierich: This thread has gone from silly to ridiculous. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it seems everyone has an opinion on this topic. Basically
52 Zrb2: Remember that idiot who tried to blow up his shoe over the Atlantic Ocean? What if someone like that was on TWA 800 and pulled a similar stunt? If he
53 ConcordeBoy: If terrorist shot TWA 800 down then why no claim, hey we did it! When you think about it though, Al Quaeda (nor any other group) never really took for
54 SN-A330: Hi all, This topic was archived. But after discussion between the moderators, it was un-archived again on 31/10. reagrds, SN-A330 (forum mod)
55 B747skipper: Merci/Wel bedankt SN-A330... xxx The topic of TW800 should not ever be archived... It would be a slap to the memory of a large number of innocent vict
56 ConcordeBoy: Skipper... what's the approx range on the 747 (any series that you have data for) with only wing tanks filled?
57 DeltaGuy: Thanks SN-A330 and other moderators...was pleasantly surpised to see this thread flying again! Thanks for all the good inputs from everybody, esp Skip
58 Startvalve: This has been beaten to death. If a terrorist group shot it down they would have taken credit, if the navy had done it someone would have squealed by
59 ConcordeBoy: If a terrorist group shot it down they would have taken credit see response #53
60 Lehpron: I think it was an accidental shoot down and not a terrorist attack.
61 CO2BGR: As Skipper said I dont believe that a center fuel tank caused the explosion, as the pump was not on and that there was very litle fuel in the tank. Wh
62 UPSfueler: What altitude was TWA 800 at when it exploded?
63 Okie: Skipper or anyone else with knowledge of the 747 switch configuration might chime in on this. One of the pilots of an approaching aircraft to TWA 800
64 B747skipper: TW800 was at 13,000 feet... I do not remember the accurate figure from the flight recorder or ATC readout... xxx Dear ConcordeBoy... Let me look at th
65 Vanguard737: SHOT DOWN!! But our wonderful ex predident Billy boy Clinton wouldnt dare allow his name be tarnished....further. He knew there were major threats to
66 Potomac: just bcs there doesnt need to be fuel in the center tank does not mean that there wasnt any in there on this particular flight. and what happened to t
67 B747skipper: Dear Okie - xxx The fuel pump switches are located on the flight engineer's panel... bottom... The landing lights are on the overhead panel, bottom ro
68 Potomac: a missle, presumably fired from a position further offshore than the plane was...yet still visible that far away by the naked eye of people who weren'
69 ConcordeBoy: Also, what about the Thai Airways 737 which exploded randomly while sitting at the gate? Everyone blamed the fuel tanks on that one as well.
70 Brian_ga: Shotdown and coverup. That's my two cents. Brian_ga
71 Okie: Thanks for the information Skipper. The thought about the lights had been tossing around in my mind for quite some time.
72 Cessnapimp: The stuff I have read here... - The Gov't blowing one of their own to protect Israel from itself. - AF captains being told of exercises. Whoever that
73 Goose: Jwenting wrote; The altitude and location would have necessitated a fairly advanced large missile like a Patriot or SM2MR. Such a weapon requires a fr
74 Potomac: 10,000 feet ceiling, not 13,000. and again, how visible is a stinger fired from out in the ocean to someone not looking for it onshore. we're not talk
75 DeltaGuy: Liked the idea of the landing light wiring....even though I'm opposed to the center-tank explosion, if I did argue it, it'd look better than the other
76 N844AA: Cessnapimp, very well said. I personally could not agree with you more. I'm perfectly willing to accept that there are unexplained details pertaining
77 Goose: DeltaGuy Wrote; Those stinger specs are startling...anybody have any idea of Soviet SAM's available to anyone with cash on the Black Market? Arabs cer
78 Ant72LBA: I have absolutely no doubt that it was an internal incident that brought the plane down. If it was a missile then facts should be available; i.e. if t
79 Goose: I cannot bring myself to believe, however, that rank and file military personnel, NTSB investigators and law enforcement officers -- all of whom would
80 HlywdCatft: **The unavoidable fact is that any fuel tank is a potential bomb, especially when empty and full of fumes, as the TWA 800's center tank was. That will
81 Potomac: nope, i still think that while as interesting as the conspiracy theory may be, the easier and less exciting explanation is more logical and likely. fi
82 767Lover: I have always felt the center fuel tank theory seemed unplausible. I also thought the timing was uncanny...2 days before the Olympics began here in At
83 Hardkor: what about the Air China 747-200 that went down (last year?). Wasn't that a fuel tank flaw as well? In my opinion, TWA 800 was a major strucutural cat
84 Dantessoul: I admire the diversity this thread has exposed in the membership of this forum. First let me offer my prayers for the souls of the departed, may they
85 Goose: I reserve judgement on what happened to TWA 800; I find it odd that, despite the official findings of a centre tank explosion, that Boeing or the NTSB
86 Positive rate: I believe it was mechanical failure that brought down TWA 800. The center wing fuel tank was empty, the plane was sitting on the ground for hours with
87 HlywdCatft: **and if terrorism is the explanation, i defer to the lack of claims of responsibility, not to mention the fact that if this was possible so many year
88 MD11LuxuryLinr: "I find it odd that, despite the official findings of a centre tank explosion, that Boeing or the NTSB...... made efforts to refit or eliminate the po
89 PW100: I tend to believe that it could very well have been a centre fuel tank explosion. Although I have not studied any detailed reports [for some reason I
90 B747skipper: In my numerous postings on the subject of TW800, I simply stated that an explosion of the center tank was an unlikely reason for the disaster... I nev
91 DeltaGuy: Skipper, Thanks for all the good 747 tech advice...I think all the info we've got disproves the center tank theory. There's a slew of other explanatio
92 777236ER: but I think the NTSB shouldn't have come out and said it was something that it really wasn't. A college student and a 747 pilot know better than profe
93 BN747: The problem I have with people who easily sling the term 'Conspiracy' is this... First of all, it only requires 1 or more to conspire. When money is i
94 Sovietjet: Well I haven't seen car fuel tanks spontaneously combust and you're saying a B747 which is 100 times more complex and insured will explode? Just my ex
95 DeltaGuy: 777236ER, If I didnt have enough faith in the NTSB, I wouldn't be up in the air every week. I honestly can't fault them for much else, they get to the
96 B747skipper: To 777236ER - xxx Sir: For your information the NTSB crash investigators are made of a team of experts in their own fields, composed of pilots, engine
97 Delta-flyer: BN747 -- so are you saying that hundreds of people who know that the 747 was shot down are keeping quiet because they have been paid off? I suspect th
98 JBirdAV8r: Didn't the Iranian Air Force (IIAF) lease some TWA B747's at some point? Didn't they lose one that was attributed to fuel tank explosion as well? Well
99 Dantessoul: To Goose: You compare the possibility of a cover up on TWA800 to covert activities at groom lake? Forgive me if I consider that absurd. Groom lake was
100 Delta-flyer: .....I haven't seen car fuel tanks spontaneously combust.... No one is saying the TW800 fuel tank combusted spontaneously. The conclusion is that it c
101 BN747: Pete/Delta-flyer, You must NOT have read a word I wrote. I checked your profile just to see if there was an excuse such as you being a 16-18 yo (not a
102 MD11LuxuryLinr: "...I think all the info we've got disproves the center tank theory" YOU think. That's one of the funniest things I've heard on the manner. The center
103 Cicadajet: Whats the deal with EO 13039? The conspiracy sites are quick to point that out...
104 777236ER: Your tone is not appreciated. I tried to inform our members here, as a 747 pilot, of the technical features of that type of aircraft. I have stated th
105 Bobs89irocz: I PERSONALLY believe it WASNT the fuel tank theory. I think it is possible. Remember the KC-10 that had the fuel pump left on and over heated and caus
106 B747skipper: Friends - xxx The only possible explanation which would verify a center wing tank explosion is this scenario. I talked to many flight engineers about
107 Ruscoe: If TWA800 was brought down by terrorist action, would not the most likely mechanism be a bomb planted on the craft. Security was not as tight then as
108 Cicadajet: Yes, the press did report explosive residue on some seats and this was countered by the story that the aircraft had been involved in a training exerci
109 Goose: You compare the possibility of a cover up on TWA800 to covert activities at groom lake? Forgive me if I consider that absurd. I was illustrating that
110 AA777: I believed the U.S. government at first. But then it started to not make sense.... eye witnessess seeing something fly towards the airplane, then imme
111 Delta-flyer: BN747 ... You must NOT have read a word I wrote. I did, indeed, but was a bit confused and was seeking clarification. I agree that people can be coerc
112 RayChuang: Gawd, I can't believe the tinfoil hat crowd is out again. Let's consider the following facts from what we know from the recovered parts of TWA 800: 1.
113 Caribb: My gut feeling tells me this was a center fuel tank explosion not a missile shoot down. It would be too difficult to find everyone who saw a missile s
114 MD11LuxuryLinr: I am by no means a religious person but AMEN to that Caribb!!
115 BN747: Pete/Delta-flyer 'Looks like people will believe what they want to believe, logic and science notwithstanding.' Exactly, Pete....exactly. In the curre
116 JMChladek: Thanks Skipper, I think you just provided the last link in the chain here that makes this event highly probable in my mind that it was a center tank e
117 B747skipper: Dear JMChladek - xxx Believe me, that TW 800 disaster had all of us 747 pilots spending hours to discuss each and any possibility. As I mentioned, 747
118 Lehpron: Seriously though, based on the eyewitmess reports of something flaming near the plane, everybody assumes it was a missile -- what if it was just a str
119 Portcolumbus: I was reading up on TW800 for a research paper. I found that the last four seconds of the CVR tape and Flight Data Recorder were missing, anyone know
120 Backfire: "Even though our employees are not law enforcement personnel, they examined every piece of wreckage for any physical evidence that the crash of Flight
121 Caribb: I think it is important to ask a very fundamental question in all this speculation; What would it serve to prove it was not a center fuel tank explosi
122 DeltaGuy: Hmmm, what about that CVR and FDR? PortColumbus, can you get the audio of those, or just the transcripts? It's a morbid but still engrossing last pict
123 Portcolumbus: Don't know where to get the CVR transcripts or audio, sorry. The only thing I can find is the ATC transcripts, and that starts just after it had gone
124 HlywdCatft: **"Even though our employees are not law enforcement personnel, they examined every piece of wreckage for any physical evidence that the crash of Flig
125 Backfire: HlywdCatft - your post is full of paranoid delusion.
126 HlywdCatft: **HlywdCatft - your post is full of paranoid delusion.** If you want to spend your life believing everything that the government and its agencies tell
127 Positive rate: There was a series called "Black Box" and one episode was all about the TWA 800 crash- i have it on tape. In the background you can hear ATC talking t
128 SCRAMJET: Definitely shot down. Not by terrorists--their surface-to-air missiles can't reach that high. Probably a gaffe by the US military who tried to cover i
129 Garnetpalmetto: Aw jeez. A US military gaffe - I'd point out that the Navy fessed up to the shoot-down of that Iran Air A300 back in '88 by the USS Vincennes. While I
130 Positive rate: Had 10-15 other 747s been blown out of the sky because of the center fuel tank, I'd be more inclined to believe that. Take the 737 rudder problem. Eno
131 Cessnapimp: Ah yes SCRAMJET, You are well brought up in the ways of multiple failures happennig time and time again before something is done about it... for ONE m
132 DeltaGuy: Not really related to TW800, but wasn't the carrier near the USS Vincennes the USS Forrestal, not the USS Yorktown? That boat has been decomm'd for so
133 Garnetpalmetto: No, DeltaGuy - the cruiser near TWA Flight 800 was the USS Yorktown, also a Ticonderoga-class cruiser like the Vincennes. I apologize if it failed to
134 DeltaGuy: Garnet, LOL! Stupid me, always thinking about the flattops. I did remember that there was another CG near it (now i know the name), but then also a ca
135 DeltaGuy: Rather, a CG near the TW jet......there was another CG near the Vincennes too We just studied the Iran A300 incident in Naval Science, actually. Delta
136 DeltaGuy: Cessnapimp brings up some good stats about flike accidents...Aloha was an out of the blue happening. Question- were there any formal airworthyness dir
137 Twa747100: All I can say is I still remeber that night, even though i was young. I will allways remeber that night. Ill allways remeber the pictures on the news
138 HlywdCatft: **Aw jeez. A US military gaffe - I'd point out that the Navy fessed up to the shoot-down of that Iran Air A300 back in '88 by the USS Vincennes. While
139 SCRAMJET: One case of a 737 rudder failure didn't make Boeing solve the problem. In regards to the fuel tank exploding on TW800, it's been shown that the aircra
140 AmbiantAir: I find it interesting that not long ago there was a thread about the "common person's" ignorance towards aviation (for example: "all big planes are 74
141 N863DA: To all the armchair NTSB investigators here: We do not know the answer. We have been told one potential explanation, but there are many others. Howeve
142 Backfire: However, we must accept here that we DO NOT KNOW. Nonsense. It's simply a case of accepting the evidence. Not so long ago a chap managed to get a book
143 AmbiantAir: **Aw jeez. A US military gaffe - I'd point out that the Navy fessed up to the shoot-down of that Iran Air A300 back in '88 by the USS Vincennes. While
144 Lowsonboy: Are there any similarities with the China Airlines 742 that disintegrated at 35,000ft off Taiwan last year? Are the two accidents connected?
145 Continental: I think the evidence of missle residue, and military missle activity in the area in the time is enough to deduce that it was indeed the government. I
146 Windshear: At first they thought... But the China Airlines crash is now believed to have been caused by another factor... But the other accident you CAN compare
147 AmbiantAir: ***Are there any similarities with the China Airlines 742 that disintegrated at 35,000ft off Taiwan last year? Are the two accidents connected?*** I h
148 Positive rate: The air conditioning packs heat the center wing tank up to an extent. They are located directly underneath the center wing tank and so far all the cas
149 BN747: N863DA wrote: 'However, we must accept here that we DO NOT KNOW.' Backfire replied: "Nonsense. It's simply a case of accepting the evidence. Not so lo
150 Elwood64151: Jwenting: Thank you for very early pointing out that the likelihood of the plane being shot-down is next to nil. You forgot the Sea Sparrow (which als
151 B747skipper: Gentlemen - No conclusive answer... xxx Anyone wants another controversy to discuss in the forum...? Post this one - Arrow Air DC8-63 - Gander - Explo
152 BN747: "Thank you for very early pointing out that the likelihood of the plane being shot-down is next to nil. You forgot the Sea Sparrow (which also shot d
153 BN747: I was wrapped in addressing Elwood64151/Fred and chastising him about 'spellcheck' ..that screwed up myself...a few times...oh well sh*t happens. I m
154 Elwood64151: BN747: Your post is so full of hatred that I can't even begin to conceive the emotional trauma you must have suffered as a youth. To answer your quest
155 BN747: Wooooooo.... He Hate Me! You know what Fred/Elwood64151...don't grow up...you'll be doing many of us a favor. BN747
156 JMChladek: I think we've managed to run this thread deep into the ground now. Wish somebody would archive it.
157 HlywdCatft: **They are presently on generation 3 I believe of the Patriot system. In any case, people of the Navy Shootdown theory, fail to explain what exactly t
158 AmbiantAir: Reading the comments of some here, from both sides of the argument, I'm reminded of my favorite quote: "To doubt everything or to believe everything a
159 HlywdCatft: **Not so long ago a chap managed to get a book published claiming that the September 11 crash of a 757 into the Pentagon never happened. I couldn't be
160 AmbiantAir: ***That is a much simpler explanation than it being shot down either by a terrorist or accidentally by our own navy? I have never seen so many governm
161 Potomac: i think all of the emotion and bad-mouthing here has clouded some of the facts that have been presented in the is forum and through the original inves
162 Cessnapimp: "No one has explained yet why the center fuel tank was nearly empty and full of fumes just minutes after take off if the plane is flying 8 hours away
163 AmbiantAir: If I'm not mistaken, TWA 800 spent something like 4 hours on the tarmac of JFK (at over a 100 degree temperatures) with the AC units running. As far a
164 Potomac: ambiantair - that's my understanding too...one of those critical facts that seems to have been forgotten when discussing exactly what a sparrow missle
165 Windshear: A curious guy asked about the China Airlines crash, and was looking for an update... The NTSB also works on this crash, because of its similarities to
166 Cessnapimp: Are you comparing the NTSB to pyramid builders!!? LOL! Just kidding! You brought some good points on the table Windshear. We observe countless airplan
167 Ryanair!!!: Oh god... I think we should just let the whole issue rest!
168 The777Man: I've read parts of the NTSB report in Aviation Week and think it's the most likely explanation to what happened. So fuel tank explosion it is, in my o
169 Windshear: Go to their site...Look for my earlier reply there is a link for the PDF report...Read the original report... To the guy who was interested in the CAL
170 AmbiantAir: Thanks for the info Windshear, and saying a little more poetically what I couldn't a number of posts ago The NTSB is something I aspire to be work in
171 Garnetpalmetto: You forgot the Sea Sparrow (which also shot down the Iranian Airbus in the Persian Gulf in the '80s) Whomever stated this is INCREDIBLY wrong. The Vin
172 SCRAMJET: We know the government hides nothing from its citizens. And of course some young sailor wouldn't blab that he/she was on the ship that accidentally br
173 Bmacleod: Shootdown, yea for sure!!! Mel Gibson's character in "Conspiracy Theory" would definitley attribute TWA 800 to a shootdown. Why won't the fuel tank ex
174 Startvalve: this topic is about as worn out as Boeing vs Airbus or why didn't AA keep the 717. Quit posting to it and ask the moderators to kill it and do us all
175 DeltaGuy: Was nice to hear the opinions of some people, and not see an arguement ensue..those who posted a coupla good opinions, those count. Didn't want this t
176 Elwood64151: AmbiantAir, Patomac: Thank you for posting your well-reasoned and thoughtful posts. Garnetpalmetto: Thank you for correcting me. I had been informed t
177 DeltaGuy: Right, Sea Sparrow took down the Iran jet...plus they're alot smaller than a Standard, might be a little harder to see? I know much about the AIM-7 Sp
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