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Airbus, Boeing Fight For JAL US$1.7B Fleet Renewal  
User currently offlineSingapore_Air From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2000, 13745 posts, RR: 19
Posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7338 times:

Japan Airlines System Corporation is looking to replace aircraft with approximately 15 new 250 seat aircraft.

"We are going to need new aircraft to replace older 767s and older A300s. Eventually our replacement requirement will be greater than that," said Geoffrey Tudor - spokesman for the airline.

Boeing is pitching the 7E7 Dreamliner - designed to replace the 757 and 767 families. Airbus and Boeing both decline to comment on the receipt of a letter asking for proposals by JASC.

The airline said that it wanted a mid-sized aircraft capable of flying up to 11 102 kilometres and a short-range version able to fly domestically in Japan.

With no list prices for the 7E7, 15 767s would cost at least US$1.71 billion and 15 Airbus A332s would cost US$1.89 billion.

More information at the



[Edited 2003-10-31 10:11:03]

[Edited 2003-10-31 10:16:31]


Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD-11 forever From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 7248 times:

@Singapore_Air

"...that it wasted a mid-sized aircraft ...."

How did they actually waste the aircraft? Any informations on that?

I'm really unimpressed........

Cheers, Thomas


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4827 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7109 times:

It will boil down between the B 7E7 and the A 332 but I expect the B 7E7 to emerge victorious for both ANA and JAPAN due to their long BOEING history and tradition. The only AIRBUS aircraft that I feel has a real chance in JAPAN in a few years are the A 380 pax and freighter versions.

User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7049 times:

It would be nice to see a Japanese airline flying the A330-200, but at first tought chances are better for Boeing. However orders in the near past from other loyal, or big Boeing customers have nearly all been in favor, or partially in favor, of Airbus (KLM, Air New Zealand, Qantas, Korean Air, Iberia, Thai) so an order for Airbus is not unrealistic. Since this order is probaply just an initial order, with much more to come, I could just imagine that both Airbus and Boeing will do wathever is in their power to get the deal. Could be interesting.


SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineScbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12799 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6921 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Well this is actually very interesting for a number of reasons.

This order is to replace older 767s and A300s. Presumably, the requirement needs to be met in the next 1-2 years. Clearly, the 7E7 can't do that, and if JAL can wait till 2008 to replace these a/c, why issue an RFP now?

If JAL do need an a/c now, then Boeing can only offer the 767, while Airbus would offer the A332. In a straight fight the A332 looks a better choice. However, given that JAL only recently ordered more 767s, I think Boeing will offer additional 767s on some kind of lease or buy-back deal, replacing them with 7E7s as and when.

Sadly, given Airbus' declining market share in Japan, and pressure on Japan to reduce the trade gap with US (not that the gap with Europe is exactly small!), I expect to see JAL select Boeing. However, if Airbus can come up with a very attractive deal, then there's nothing to stop JAL taking A332s now, then looking at the 7E7 much later once it's a proven plane.

I think this favours Boeing, but don't rule out Airbus!



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineRayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8030 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6741 times:

I have my doubts that Airbus will win this order. Someone mentioned here that Japan is a major Boeing customer, and Japanese companies are heavily involved in Boeing widebody airplane construction.

I personally believe that JL and NH will become the launch customers for the 7E7--and will probably get a Memorandum of Understanding or options with Boeing to launch the plane by the end of this year or in January 2004. And that is only the beginning; we could also see LH do the same thing about the same period so LH can use the new plane to replace their A310's and older A300B planes.


User currently offlineSabena 690 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6711 times:

I am no technicus, but isn't QF having problems with the A332 because it's too heavy for short routes?

Seen the press release above, they must also fit on short haul routes...


User currently offlineCodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6617 times:

How about the 777-200 for the domestics?
And the 777-200/300 ER for the longer routes?
Brand new 767s? Or they could take in some used ones.



How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6536 times:

This RFP is suspiciously timed, given that JAL just ordered more 767s as Scbriml mentioned: if they need to replace their old 767s and A300s now, why not continue snapping up new-build 767s from Boeing, with significant discounts for keeping the line moving? IMHO, JAL is trolling to be a 7E7 launch customer and is using the RFP to prod Boeing into offering the Dreamliner. Local media has reported that the Japanese are pressuring the Boeing Board to give sales authorization as soon as possible, perhaps sometime in Nov or Dec.

This is the only thing that makes any sense: if JAL wanted a new fleet of A330s to replace their 767s, why did they just sign for more 763s? We could see the first 7E7 orders rolling in within months. Combined with recent news that China will order "dozens" of Boeing jets in the coming months(http://www.tribnet.com/news/story/4274258p-4284998c.html), perhaps customers outside Japan will join the program very soon as well.

--B2707SST



Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
User currently offlineLhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6519 times:

The 7E7... are there any concrete descriptions of the product.

The A380... when will it debut?

Look for JAL, to favor Boeing

747-400ER
767-400
777-200
777-300ER
737-900
737-700

in the end

Look for JAL, to choose Airbus

A380
A340-600
A340-500
A340-300
A330-300
A330-200
A321
A320-200
A319-200

There is much more room for growth with the Airbus product!


User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6438 times:

the previous post made no sense whatsoever  Laugh out loud

**********

B2707, I agree... also, it should be noted that Boeing has (rather surreptitiously) received permission from its board to offer the 7E7 to both JL and NH before launch.... this has only been done before with the 777NGs.


User currently offlineJoleb From Belgium, joined Oct 2003, 290 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6325 times:

As Japan is a very loyal customer to Boeing and want to keep their relations good I only expect and truly hope they only buy Boeing

BASTA


User currently offlineLhr001 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 6265 times:

News Flash-

JL -

Is operating A300!

NH -

is operating A320!

Several other Japanese airlines are using Airbus as well...



User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3514 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6254 times:

Fortunately airlines usually don't make their purchases based on tradition and sympathy.
As 7E7 has still long time to go I see this as a chance for Bus. If they come with very good offer - they could get it.


User currently offlineKorg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6208 times:

I expect JAL to actully order the 7E7 since 30% of the aircraft would be made by the japanese them selfs...makes perfect sense hah?


Please excuse my English!
User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6204 times:

Hahahaha... any of you folks who even THINK Airbus has any chance to win this order must be smoking some powerful stuff. I give it a 1% chance, and that's if Boeing goes bankrupt within the next year. The 7E7 has already been designated a national project of Japan by the government. The A320's owned by ANA are already to be replaced by newly ordered 737's and the A300's over at JAL/JAS are outta of there. As I've said before, there will not be a single Airbus registered in Japan once fleet renewal is completed.

User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6192 times:

JL -
Is operating A300!


...which they acquired in a merger and soon plan to get rid of


NH -
is operating A320!


....which are already due to be replaced by the recent 45-plane 737NG order


User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6187 times:

Several other Japanese airlines are using Airbus as well...

...and they are??


User currently offlineShenzhen From United States of America, joined Jun 2003, 1712 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6182 times:

What seems to be missing in the original post is that the request is for airplanes that would be delivered in 2008.

When does the 7E7 enter service?

7E7 all the way, A330 has less chance then a 777 at Virgin.


User currently offlineBa319-131 From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2001, 8578 posts, RR: 54
Reply 19, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6151 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

I'll be honest,it's amost a waste of Airbus time and money to compete for this order.The best they are likely to acheive is force Boeing to give the 7E7 to JL and NH at a massive knock down price.

A JL or NH A330-200 would look superb,but I sure doubt it will happen.

Just my $0.02

Rgds

Mark



111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
User currently offlineJAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6126 times:

The best they are likely to acheive is force Boeing to give the 7E7 to JL and NH at a massive knock down price.

I don't even think they'll be able to do that... remeber, 35% of the money JAL/ANA put into the aircraft ends up back in Japan.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6081 times:

JAS actually had it right - the A300-600R is the perfect airplane for the Japanese market. Its less capable and carries more pax than the 767-300ER, and has sufficient range to many mainland destinations.

The RFP is carefully worded to avoid the 330... and really, the 7E7 is the best way to go.

N


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7965 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6067 times:

Are JL and/or NH government owned? If so: Can they freely decide which aircraft to buy (like LH could when they still where government owned)?


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5971 times:

Both JL and NH are privately-owned.

User currently offlineB2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5967 times:

If Boeing can deliver on current performance figures, the 7E7 is shaping up to be a magnificent airplane. The 7E7 Baseline will enter service in 2008, the Stretch around 2010. No specs for the likely Short-Range variant(s) are listed.

                 7E7            7E7 Stretch     767-200ER       767-300ER
Seats (3 class) 200 250 181 218
Cross-section 226 in. 226 in. 198 in. 198 in.
MTOW 408,800 490,500 395,000 412,000
Length 182 ft. 202 ft. 159 ft. 2 in. 180 ft. 3 in.
Wingspan 186 ft. 186 ft. 156 ft. 1 in. 156 ft. 1 in.
Range 6,600 nm 8,000 nm 6,600 nm 6,105 nm
Speed Mach 0.85 Mach 0.85 Mach 0.80 Mach 0.80


767-400ER A330-200 A330-300
Seats (3 class) 245 253 295
Cross-section 198 in. 222 in. 222 in.
MTOW 450,000 513,700 513,700
Length 201 ft. 4 in. 193 ft. 7 in. 208 ft. 1 in.
Wingspan 170 ft. 4 in. 197 ft. 10 in. 197 ft. 10 in.
Range 5,645 nm 6,650 nm 5,600 nm
Speed Mach 0.80 Mach 0.81 Mach 0.81
--B2707SST

[Edited 2003-10-31 23:13:47]


Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
25 Post contains images Manni : Euh, let us just hope that the wingspan of the 7E7 stretch is not the decisive factor for airlines ordering the proposed aircraft. They might be dissa
26 Heavierthanair : G'day Japan Airlines System Corporation is looking to replace aircraft with approximately 15 new 250 seat aircraft. "We are going to need new aircraft
27 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Then again, with JL and also NH being the only truly potential launch customers for the 7x7 not that they'd bother arguing with someone who apparently
28 Leskova : LH is interested in the 7e7, but I've not heard anything from them that says that they're interested in being launch customer... but, that said, it wo
29 Heavierthanair : G'day B2707SST, your statement, "If Boeing can deliver on current performance figures, the 7E7 is shaping up to be a magnificent airplane. The 7E7 Bas
30 Leskova : Heavierthanair, the planned 7e7 base model is supposed to have a range of 6600nm, the A330-200 has 6650nm... as much as I like the A330-200, but that'
31 Artsyman : This RFP is suspiciously timed **************** I actually think that the timing is quite logical in that there is a bit of a recovery starting to mat
32 Heavierthanair : G'day Me again, not that I want to be intrusive - But... "not that they'd bother arguing with someone who apparently has little idea as to what he spe
33 Behramjee : JAL mainly ordered the B 763ERs for immediate replacement for all its MD 11s and especially DC 10-40s used on TPE-domestic-regional and HNL routes. Do
34 Gigneil : JAL mainly ordered the B 763ERs for immediate replacement for all its MD 11s and especially DC 10-40s used on TPE-domestic-regional and HNL routes. No
35 FlyLAX : "The 7x7 Thing is scheduled to becoming available just around then" I'm sorry but the 7E7, (not 7x7) is hardly just a thing. "Boeings 767-whatever doe
36 N79969 : "Not likely on the MD-11s. The 763 is hardly an MD-11 replacement." Actually I think the 763 is pretty good replacement for the MD-11. Alitalia reduce
37 Gigneil : Indeed, some of it, but I wouldn't say that 8 763ERs are to immediately replace all their M11 flying. N
38 Ha763 : Actually, JAL bought 8 777-200ERs and 2 767-300ERs as direct replacements for the 10 MD-11s in 2000. The recent 767-300ER order was for DC-10 replacem
39 Dionysus : Reading the above requirements from JAL. It seems that they've decided which plane to buy. I am sure that they will order 7E7.
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