Behramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4827 posts, RR: 44
Reply 2, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 7109 times:
It will boil down between the B 7E7 and the A 332 but I expect the B 7E7 to emerge victorious for both ANA and JAPAN due to their long BOEING history and tradition. The only AIRBUS aircraft that I feel has a real chance in JAPAN in a few years are the A 380 pax and freighter versions.
Manni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 3, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 7049 times:
It would be nice to see a Japanese airline flying the A330-200, but at first tought chances are better for Boeing. However orders in the near past from other loyal, or big Boeing customers have nearly all been in favor, or partially in favor, of Airbus (KLM, Air New Zealand, Qantas, Korean Air, Iberia, Thai) so an order for Airbus is not unrealistic. Since this order is probaply just an initial order, with much more to come, I could just imagine that both Airbus and Boeing will do wathever is in their power to get the deal. Could be interesting.
Scbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12799 posts, RR: 46
Reply 4, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 6921 times:
Well this is actually very interesting for a number of reasons.
This order is to replace older 767s and A300s. Presumably, the requirement needs to be met in the next 1-2 years. Clearly, the 7E7 can't do that, and if JAL can wait till 2008 to replace these a/c, why issue an RFP now?
If JAL do need an a/c now, then Boeing can only offer the 767, while Airbus would offer the A332. In a straight fight the A332 looks a better choice. However, given that JAL only recently ordered more 767s, I think Boeing will offer additional 767s on some kind of lease or buy-back deal, replacing them with 7E7s as and when.
Sadly, given Airbus' declining market share in Japan, and pressure on Japan to reduce the trade gap with US (not that the gap with Europe is exactly small!), I expect to see JAL select Boeing. However, if Airbus can come up with a very attractive deal, then there's nothing to stop JAL taking A332s now, then looking at the 7E7 much later once it's a proven plane.
I think this favours Boeing, but don't rule out Airbus!
Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 8030 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 6741 times:
I have my doubts that Airbus will win this order. Someone mentioned here that Japan is a major Boeing customer, and Japanese companies are heavily involved in Boeing widebody airplane construction.
I personally believe that JL and NH will become the launch customers for the 7E7--and will probably get a Memorandum of Understanding or options with Boeing to launch the plane by the end of this year or in January 2004. And that is only the beginning; we could also see LH do the same thing about the same period so LH can use the new plane to replace their A310's and older A300B planes.
B2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 8, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 6536 times:
This RFP is suspiciously timed, given that JAL just ordered more 767s as Scbriml mentioned: if they need to replace their old 767s and A300s now, why not continue snapping up new-build 767s from Boeing, with significant discounts for keeping the line moving? IMHO, JAL is trolling to be a 7E7 launch customer and is using the RFP to prod Boeing into offering the Dreamliner. Local media has reported that the Japanese are pressuring the Boeing Board to give sales authorization as soon as possible, perhaps sometime in Nov or Dec.
This is the only thing that makes any sense: if JAL wanted a new fleet of A330s to replace their 767s, why did they just sign for more 763s? We could see the first 7E7 orders rolling in within months. Combined with recent news that China will order "dozens" of Boeing jets in the coming months(http://www.tribnet.com/news/story/4274258p-4284998c.html), perhaps customers outside Japan will join the program very soon as well.
ConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 6438 times:
the previous post made no sense whatsoever
B2707, I agree... also, it should be noted that Boeing has (rather surreptitiously) received permission from its board to offer the 7E7 to both JL and NH before launch.... this has only been done before with the 777NGs.
Danny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3514 posts, RR: 3
Reply 13, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6254 times:
Fortunately airlines usually don't make their purchases based on tradition and sympathy.
As 7E7 has still long time to go I see this as a chance for Bus. If they come with very good offer - they could get it.
JAL777 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6204 times:
Hahahaha... any of you folks who even THINK Airbus has any chance to win this order must be smoking some powerful stuff. I give it a 1% chance, and that's if Boeing goes bankrupt within the next year. The 7E7 has already been designated a national project of Japan by the government. The A320's owned by ANA are already to be replaced by newly ordered 737's and the A300's over at JAL/JAS are outta of there. As I've said before, there will not be a single Airbus registered in Japan once fleet renewal is completed.
Gigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 21, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 6081 times:
JAS actually had it right - the A300-600R is the perfect airplane for the Japanese market. Its less capable and carries more pax than the 767-300ER, and has sufficient range to many mainland destinations.
The RFP is carefully worded to avoid the 330... and really, the 7E7 is the best way to go.
B2707SST From United States of America, joined Apr 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 59
Reply 24, posted (11 years 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 5967 times:
If Boeing can deliver on current performance figures, the 7E7 is shaping up to be a magnificent airplane. The 7E7 Baseline will enter service in 2008, the Stretch around 2010. No specs for the likely Short-Range variant(s) are listed.
7E7 7E7 Stretch 767-200ER 767-300ER
Seats (3 class) 200 250 181 218
Cross-section 226 in. 226 in. 198 in. 198 in.
MTOW 408,800 490,500 395,000 412,000
Length 182 ft. 202 ft. 159 ft. 2 in. 180 ft. 3 in.
Wingspan 186 ft. 186 ft. 156 ft. 1 in. 156 ft. 1 in.
Range 6,600 nm 8,000 nm 6,600 nm 6,105 nm
Speed Mach 0.85 Mach 0.85 Mach 0.80 Mach 0.80
767-400ER A330-200 A330-300
Seats (3 class) 245 253 295
Cross-section 198 in. 222 in. 222 in.
MTOW 450,000 513,700 513,700
Length 201 ft. 4 in. 193 ft. 7 in. 208 ft. 1 in.
Wingspan 170 ft. 4 in. 197 ft. 10 in. 197 ft. 10 in.
Range 5,645 nm 6,650 nm 5,600 nm
Speed Mach 0.80 Mach 0.81 Mach 0.81
[Edited 2003-10-31 23:13:47]
Keynes is dead and we are living in his long run.
: Euh, let us just hope that the wingspan of the 7E7 stretch is not the decisive factor for airlines ordering the proposed aircraft. They might be dissa
: G'day Japan Airlines System Corporation is looking to replace aircraft with approximately 15 new 250 seat aircraft. "We are going to need new aircraft
: Then again, with JL and also NH being the only truly potential launch customers for the 7x7 not that they'd bother arguing with someone who apparently
: LH is interested in the 7e7, but I've not heard anything from them that says that they're interested in being launch customer... but, that said, it wo
: G'day B2707SST, your statement, "If Boeing can deliver on current performance figures, the 7E7 is shaping up to be a magnificent airplane. The 7E7 Bas
: Heavierthanair, the planned 7e7 base model is supposed to have a range of 6600nm, the A330-200 has 6650nm... as much as I like the A330-200, but that'
: This RFP is suspiciously timed **************** I actually think that the timing is quite logical in that there is a bit of a recovery starting to mat
: G'day Me again, not that I want to be intrusive - But... "not that they'd bother arguing with someone who apparently has little idea as to what he spe
: JAL mainly ordered the B 763ERs for immediate replacement for all its MD 11s and especially DC 10-40s used on TPE-domestic-regional and HNL routes. Do
: JAL mainly ordered the B 763ERs for immediate replacement for all its MD 11s and especially DC 10-40s used on TPE-domestic-regional and HNL routes. No
: "The 7x7 Thing is scheduled to becoming available just around then" I'm sorry but the 7E7, (not 7x7) is hardly just a thing. "Boeings 767-whatever doe
: "Not likely on the MD-11s. The 763 is hardly an MD-11 replacement." Actually I think the 763 is pretty good replacement for the MD-11. Alitalia reduce
: Indeed, some of it, but I wouldn't say that 8 763ERs are to immediately replace all their M11 flying. N
: Actually, JAL bought 8 777-200ERs and 2 767-300ERs as direct replacements for the 10 MD-11s in 2000. The recent 767-300ER order was for DC-10 replacem
: Reading the above requirements from JAL. It seems that they've decided which plane to buy. I am sure that they will order 7E7.