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Air India Selects 10 A340-300 And 18 B737-800  
User currently offlineTeahan From Germany, joined Nov 1999, 5310 posts, RR: 61
Posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 32210 times:

Air India’s Board has selected a mix of Boeing and Airbuses for the upcoming order: 18 B737-800 and 10 A340-300, all powered by CFM engines. Deliveries over a period of 5 years replacing A310 and B747-200 aircraft.

http://us.rediff.com/money/2003/nov/08ai.htm

http://www.airindia.com/article.asp?articleid=229

Nice to see some new "commitments" to the A340-300, which hasn't won much of late. How many committees until a firm order.. 3 years or would that be an underestimation.

Jeremiah


[Edited 2003-11-08 15:52:33]


Goodbye SR-LX MD-11 / 6th of March 1991 to the 31st of October 2004
214 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFlagshipAZ From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 3419 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 31794 times:

I wish Air India could have taken some 73Gs, so we can have at least a few examples of a 737-737.  Wink/being sarcastic BTW, aren't there any used A343s parked around somewhere, looking for a home? Seems to me Boeing took some in trade a few years back. Regards.


"Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." --Ben Franklin
User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 2, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 31743 times:

FlagshipAZ, if you're thinking of the ones that Boeing traded in from SQ - they've all been placed with operators again, so these seem to be new orders... as soon as all the committees have met and agreed to the purchase... look out for the A340s and B737NGs to arrive some time around 2010...  Big grin



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 31685 times:

The 737-800 just doesnt make any sense. The A320 would have given commonality benefits with IC which operates over 36 A320's and is ordering another 43 as also with the A340-300's.

But then again this is India we are talking about! So expect this decision to go to a commitee which will then refer it to a sub-commitee. Expect the deal to be finalized by 2015 odd.

BTW, I hear the B737-800's are to be transferred to a sub-airline. The Naresh Goyal connection? Sean, can you chip in here?

-Roy

[Edited 2003-11-08 16:47:53]

User currently offlineCodeshare From Poland, joined Sep 2002, 1854 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 31613 times:

An order mix that satisfies (but not fully) Airbus and Boeing.
Are the 738s going to be equipped with winglets?

Were they thinking of the 777 and A330 or A346?



How much A is there is Airliners Net ? 0 or nothing ?
User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31603 times:

This is an entirely political deal. The Hathi committee's technical reccomendation was for 777s and 738s but the French offered some major outsourcing of A380 components to HAL as well as military technology if the A340 was selected. And the rest is history....

Now of course, it goes to the ministry for approval and then to Cabinet and then to CCS. So we are still looking at another year or two in the process, by which time the A340 will hopefully be out of production.

No I'm not pleased. I'm going to refrain from participating in topics about this for now - I'm that upset about it. And you can be sure I'll be giving the folks on the committee a piece of my mind when I next run into them.

Bah. Sad day for Indian aviation again.

PS. I find it ironic that PR Director Jitender Bhargava got his own AI facts messed up in his press briefing. I think thats just symptomatic of the mess that this transaction has turned into.

[Edited 2003-11-08 17:59:21]

User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16368 posts, RR: 56
Reply 6, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31419 times:

This is an entirely political deal.

Exactly! Some things never change. Air-India preferred the 762 in the 80's but they were forced to buy the 313. Once again, an airline restricted by the shackles of an interfering government is forced to buy an aircraft it does not want.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineGoing64 From Netherlands, joined Oct 2002, 329 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31376 times:

... here we go again; let's make a competition who will be first in this thread saying something like "tax payers money" or "landing rights" or "Boeing Military division" or "under cost price" or "I ain't going if ...."; silly silly silly

User currently offlineBoieng747-400 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31311 times:

Yyz717,

I think you shouldn't think that only one manufacturer is putting on political pressure. Boeing and Airbus have both forced some orders using political pressure. Another good example of this was El Al, who wanted to go for Airbus and due to U.S. government pressure went for Boeing, the same can be said for Japan or China...

Cheers,
Tim


User currently offlineManni From South Korea, joined Nov 2001, 4221 posts, RR: 22
Reply 9, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 31301 times:

Indeed Going64, that's a sad state of affairs, the way this kind of threads develop. Just wait a couple more hours to see it happening as it is now only noon on a saturday in the US and certain people might stil have to discover this news....  Big grin

'Once again, an airline restricted by the shackles of an interfering governement is forced to buy new aircraft it does not want'

Wrong thread Yyz717, this isn't about the ELAL order...  Laugh out loud



SUPPORT THE LEBANESE CIVILIANS
User currently offlineKorg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 31257 times:

I'm quite disappointed in that A340 choice but that's ok. It will be fun to hear all those storys about how the a340 struggles to fly with the tons of load air India has  Big grin. and no AIRBUS VS BOEING INTENDED HERE!

[Edited 2003-11-08 18:42:44]


Please excuse my English!
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 31239 times:

Oh well, least we wont have to "worry" about any AI nonstops to the Americas any time soon  Big grin

User currently offlineThe777Man From United States of America, joined Jul 1999, 6672 posts, RR: 55
Reply 12, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 31166 times:

Very disappointing since Capt. Hathi actually had recommended the 777 over the 340. Hopefully things can change again !  Smile

The777Man



Need a Boeing 777 Firing Order....Further to fly....CI, MU, LX and LH 777s
User currently offlineDIJKKIJK From France, joined Jul 2003, 1822 posts, RR: 4
Reply 13, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 31099 times:

I wonder why they had to choose the A340-300. A340-500 would have been a much better Idea.

By the time AI order and get the A343, Airbus will probably be making the last of those planes.


And again , a better combination would have been the 777-300ER and the A320/A321.

Did AI not go in for the 777 because PIA has gone in for it???? Just a thought....



Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
User currently offlineConcordeBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 31037 times:

I wonder why they had to choose the A340-300. A340-500 would have been a much better Idea.

Because back when the initial bid was taken, the 777NGs were barely in existance and the A340NGs werent considered. It never was modified to include either.


User currently offlineB747-437B From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 30948 times:

As an aside, I should add that the board also approved the purchase of 9 low bed, air conditioned passenger buses to transport pax to/from remote bays at BOM airport.

Ironic that the buses may actually be more powerful than the aircraft.


User currently offlineAA737-823 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 5947 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 30815 times:

IT sounds to me like this is not a case of the manufacturer pressuring the airline, Boeing 747-400, but the government of India. That's what it sounds like.

If someone evaluated it and said that they should go for 777s, they should have. How can we make progress when we are only going backwards? These middle-ages- type of buying tactics areridiculous. Yes, I would be disappointed if they had gone all Airbus, but if that's what they wanted, they should have done it. On the same hand, I want them to buy all Boeing (especially over the 343- who likes that plane??? The 345, okay, but 343? geesh) and if that's what they want, then they should buy THAT.

Buy what makes sense, not what the government tells you to.
Here in the USA, the government doesn't seem to pressure the airlines (helps that they're not state run, huh?) into buying decisions. Hence we have AA, US, NW, UA, AmWest, and JetBlue flying Airbusses, and AA, DL, CO, AS, and others flying Boeings. Everyone is happy- they did what they wanted. AND- I as a passenger can choose which airline to suit my own needs, rather than the government telling me that Airbusses are better for widebodies, and Boeings for narrowbodies.

Our gov't here in the states has meddled in the past, but we're deregulating lots of industries- electricity, airlines, phone companies, cable tv, are all examples of things that have been de-reg'd in the last 20 years or so.

I hope that Air India can make their decisions work out.


User currently offlineGamps From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 469 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 30807 times:

Well if Airbus is promising more component deals to Indian companies, I guess it is a win-win situation for both India and Airbus? Airbus can outsource some component production to India and benefit from cheap production costs. HAL already produces many components for the A320 family including plane doors.

So far we have the following arguments against AI selecting A340s in this thread:

* It is a slow climber
* It is almost at the end of production line.

Anyway with general elections round the corner in India, I doubt if anything will happen at all before 2004 end. Last thing govt would want is opposition raising the issue of "kickbacks"

Cheers


User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 30713 times:

The pressure on El Al and China Airlines to buy American was entirely proper. The reasons should be entirely obvious.

On the contrary the EU's whining, complaints and threats when ANA opted to dump their A320s for 737NG and when CI selected GE engines for A330 was utterly improper and ridiculous. Again, the reasons should be entirely obvious to even the most casual observer.

I hope the Indian government realizes that the French also sell military technology to Pakistan. In fact, I believe the French sell the same submarines to both countries.

I wonder if the guys who picked the 343 understand the concept of density altitude. Given the country's hot and humid climate, they seem to have picked the single worst airplane type for those conditions. Or perhaps the 343 will only depart at night.

[Edited 2003-11-08 21:31:42]

User currently offlineDavid_itl From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 7442 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 30679 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

The pressure on El Al and China Airlines to buy American was entirely proper.

Aah, the logical Henry Ford extension: "You can buy any aeroplane you like, as long as it's American".

Just because YOUR money is being donated to those countries does not give the US the right to determine, through none too subtle hints, the choice of aircraft and engines for any of the state airlines.


David


User currently offlineLeskova From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 6075 posts, RR: 70
Reply 20, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 30611 times:

AA737-823, you ask "especially over the 343- who likes that plane???" - and I can provide you with a very simple answer: passengers - plain, simple and normal passengers.

If you take the time to ask them, quite a lot of them will tell you that they do not appreciate the powerful and steep takeoffs that some, especially around here, seem to enjoy so much - for quite a few, that's actually the most dreaded moment of the flight.

Another thing passengers tend to prefer is low noise levels, and anyone who's flown on a 343 and on a 777 knows which one wins that contest... hint: they do not speak english in the country where the final assembly of the plane is located.

Yes, in a lot of - or maybe even most - cases the 777 will, in the long term, be the economically superior choice, but there are also those cases when, for whatever reasons or by whatever fateful event, an airline (or those controlling the airline) will make a different selection (maybe even because the A340 will, in the long term, be the more economical choice for them).


N79969, your comments really sound alot like a "you are free to buy whatever you like, as long as we make it" attitude: either there is a free market (and in the case of airliners, sadly, we are very, very far away from that) or there isn't a free market.

In case there is no free market then, unfortunately, both sides will have to accept that, occasionally, an airline will order (by being forced to do so) the product that they did not want.

Air India is just another one in the long line, together with El Al and China Airlines - just accept it, it's a fact of life, or - just to keep thrashing clichees -see that the pendulum swings both ways.

I'm just thinking... if our European goverments finally got their acts together and really used their negotiating power (as well as their intelligence & secret services) as the US regularly does... just imagine how many more Airbusses would be flying around then!

Oh, and one final point: ever had a look at the timetables of Air India? Barely any long distance flights go out during the day, so, indeed, the 343 probably will almost always be going out at night... just as the 742s and 744s do at the moment.



Smile - it confuses people!
User currently offlineN79969 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 30567 times:

Leskova,

Think for a moment why I say it is entirely appropriate for the United States government to apply pressure (very heavy if necessary) so that the flag carriers of Taiwan and Israel buy American. Think for a brief moment. I assume that you realize that those countries would not exist but for the aegis of U.S. military. Now why is it that U.S. government did not make a sound when Taipei-based EVA Airways opted for A330?

It is interesting that it is the French who are transferring military technology. I thought Airbus was "European." Why is it the French who are exerting pressure?

By the way as far as the U.S. using its intel services, I think it has proven to be a good thing. We intercepted a fax of the French trying to bribe the Saudis to buy Airbus.

That there is no free market in airlines is truly the fault of Europe and particularly France.


User currently offlineIndianguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 30543 times:


No I'm not pleased. I'm going to refrain from participating in topics about this for now - I'm that upset about it. And you can be sure I'll be giving the folks on the committee a piece of my mind when I next run into them.

Bah. Sad day for Indian aviation again.


Sean: We all have our favorite aircraft's which we would like to see in the colors of our favorite airline. But if the A340 is good enough to be operated by airlines like LH,SQ,VS,CX etc tehn I dont think there is a problem with the aircraft itself.

As far as the A340 being underpowered is concerned, if it can take off, fly with a full load on a 10 hour flight and land safely, and do that in the most economical manner then that should be enough.

And if the reasons were political, we would have seen 777's and not A340's, becuase the US has been putting tremendous pressure through their embassy here. Wonder why the A320's were not ordered and why the 738 was chosen instead, when the A320 would have nicely complimented the A340's.

Now THAT is a political decision!

-Roy


User currently offlineBehramjee From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 4851 posts, RR: 44
Reply 23, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 30552 times:

Ok one can understand how important this deal was from a political point of view but even if that was the case, the order should have been reversed.

It should have been 10 B 777-200ERs and 18 A 320-200s. Why? Its pretty simple, Air India and Indian Airlines are one big family, so with IC already having around 30 A 320s, it would have been far more easier for AIs crew-pilots-engineers etc to get some expert help on what to do with A 320s for which IC help can easily be obtained. Plus AI and IC could have combined their A 320 order to make it total 61 aircraft (43 IC 18 AI) where by attracting a larger discount from AIRBUS!!!

As for why the B 772ERs, its pretty simple there too as it flies faster than the A 343 therefore burning less fuel and being more efficient. It also has a larger seating capacity which AI needs as it will be installing beds in F & J classes. Its also cheaper to fly a 2 engine aircraft than an a 4 engine one plus the range of the B 772ER is greater than the A 343!!!

One last thing I want to point out is that why are people saying that the B 738s are replacing the A 313s? I have not read any article anywhere that says this. Their A 313s have 200 seats whilst the B 738s have 146 plus lesser range. The only thing left for BOEING to do is to MAKE SURE that when the time comes in 2008-09 for AIR INDIA to get rid of its A 310s, that the B 7E7 Basic Version is chosen come what may as it will be an order worth around 20+ aircraft!!!

Overall I am greatly disappointed in this decision of AIs!!! Lets hope that BIMAN gets B 772ERs to replace its DC 10-30s.


User currently offlineGigneil From United States of America, joined Nov 2002, 16347 posts, RR: 85
Reply 24, posted (11 years 1 month 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 30434 times:

This is the same reason why Japan is pretty well locked up by Boeing.

Its a common occurence. We might not like it, but both sides definitely hide behind the shield of government often.

N


25 N79969 : "Just because YOUR money is being donated to those countries does not give the US the right to determine, through none too subtle hints, the choice of
26 Gigneil : No, no it doesn't give us that right, and well you know it. N
27 Leskova : Well, if helping another country gives you the right to expect them to buy your products... considering, how much development aid is going from Europe
28 Jaysit : What an asinine decision. So much for integration of AI/IC ops. Looks like some babus got their hands greased to a higher degree by the French. But by
29 SR 103 : Behreamjee, As for why the B 772ERs, its pretty simple there too as it flies faster than the A 343 therefore burning less fuel and being more efficien
30 N79969 : "No, no it doesn't give us that right, and well you know it." Give it up. I am glad the US government strong arms them into buying Boeing. The governm
31 Leskova : N79969, just noticed I missed one of your posts... Now why is it that U.S. government did not make a sound when Taipei-based EVA Airways opted for A33
32 N79969 : "The A340 burns far less fuel than the 777. I am not sure where you got your information from, but all you have to do is look at all the studies out t
33 N79969 : The French have been trading CDG slots for Airbus orders in a very poorly kept secret manner. Slots usually are received within days of getting an ord
34 Vinovalentino : Would ETOPS certification figure into this decision (340) at all? AI doesn't have the greatest reputation for service and safety. It may be similar to
35 Jaysit : All these arguments are academic. Air India is an instrument of the Government of India, and as such is a tool to effect public and international poli
36 B747-437B : Would ETOPS certification figure into this decision (340) at all? AI doesn't have the greatest reputation for service and safety. AI has been running
37 Jaysit : "AI doesn't have the greatest reputation for service and safety." AIs reputation for service may be justifiably lousy. However, its safety record is v
38 SR 103 : N79969 Not true. That your roommate is an aerospace engineer does not substantiate your claim. I never said "he" said that. I said it states that in h
39 Vinovalentino : B747-437B Easy fellow. I specifically posted my post as a question. Definition of an idiot... A grown man who has the time to post an average of 6 ti
40 Indianguy : Sean said: As an aside, I should add that the board also approved the purchase of 9 low bed, air conditioned passenger buses to transport pax to/from
41 Ba319-131 : Well,I am shocked,I figured the 777 had this sewn up with the 320/321 taking the narrowbody order. A few points:- This order may take years to become
42 Jaysit : "As a passenger,the 340 series is much nicer than the 777,hell,the 777 is a very noisy airplane." Please. Lets not exaggerate. I take BA's 777 to Lond
43 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : SR103: If twins are not cheaper to operate than quads, then there is no reason why more and more twins are being used to fly long distance routes that
44 MIAMIx707 : 777s would have looked perfect in the palace in the sky livery. The a340s will probably get a grey belly instead of the polished aluminum look
45 Post contains images Manni : Going64, Congratulations your predictions came out. The whining has begun, nevertheless that wont change anything! Good on you Airbus and Air India, y
46 L-188 : However the burn/hr is lower due to the lower cruising speed - and hence in that context is more efficient. So basically if it works as it should with
47 Jaysit : I predict that this whole deal will go back to the drawing board with the A340-500 emerging as an alternative. The whole thing will start all over aga
48 N79969 : "One significant military deal in the offing is the French offer for upgraded Mirage 2000-5's which the IAF undoubtedly needs. But there is little els
49 Scorpio : I find it rather funny that certain members (always the same ones BTW *cough*N79969*cough*) find a way to bitch continually every time Airbus wins an
50 Going64 : I'm very sorry that (as usual) I cannot confirm that we have 1 winner as announced in my earlier posting. What worries me more is that these topics ar
51 B747-437B : And why would that be so impossible? Point of information. I KNOW for a fact that the technical committee report in January reccomended the B777 over
52 N79969 : Scorpio, Find and read the article cited in reply 30. There are plenty of facts in there. Airbus helped kill Sabena. They also bribed Indian Airlines
53 Scorpio : Find and read the article cited in reply 30. There are plenty of facts in there. Airbus helped kill Sabena. They also bribed Indian Airlines into buyi
54 ConcordeBoy : As a passenger,the 340 series is much nicer than the 777,hell,the 777 is a very noisy airplane. your point? You'd be surprised how many pax (industry-
55 Scorpio : Thank you, ConcordeBoy, for the article. It is much appreciated, as, after having read the article, I'm quite sure N79969 would have NEVER provided a
56 TK : I don't have much background knowledge on Air India's situation so I can't comment on this particular order. I just find it funny everytime Airbus get
57 N79969 : Scorpio, Yes seriously. Airbus helped destroy Sabena. Read the article again. You do not have to even read it that carefully. It played a signficant p
58 Adria : B747-437B and Yyz717: Every order is a political deal. That's why Delta will never( in the near future) buy Airbusses and the airlines of Japan also.
59 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Our friend Concordeboy's views have gotten so distorted that (in reply 55) he's suggesting the A340's quietness is actually a weakness, whereas the 77
60 Leskova : N79969, I respect your opinions - everyone is entitled to having their own ones - but there is one flaw in the logic of your last post. You point out
61 Dynkrisolo : Aria: Politics rules about 80% of all orders. That's a HUGE exaggeration. Delta hasn't ordered Airbus planes lately is due to the business relationshi
62 Jaysit : Back to Air India. What is the configuration of these aircraft going to be? Will they have a competitive product in every class or will it be the same
63 Post contains images ConcordeBoy : Shouldn't they concentrate on actually placing an order for aircraft, before worrying about how they'd configure it? (in a more mainstream environment
64 Scorpio : Yes seriously. Airbus helped destroy Sabena. Read the article again. You do not have to even read it that carefully. It played a signficant part in th
65 N79969 : Leskova, I appreciate your civility. Both Boeing and Airbus ship sub-assemblies from distant locations to their final assembly point. No argument. Bot
66 N79969 : Scorpio, Read the article again. The article shows that Airbus chicancery helped kill Sabena. There are no lies in what I posted. But hey what could p
67 Scorpio : WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT?
68 Leskova : N79969, you're right about the first 20 years (well, actually, a bit less: Airbus was founded in 1970, the A320 was launched in 1984 - not sure when f
69 N79969 : Leskova, I think the A300/310 are decent airplanes. The A300-600 is better than decent. The widebody twin concept is something that Airbus clearly des
70 ConcordeBoy : My question regarding this particular AI deal is whether denied boarding will become a problem because of 343s performance in hot and humid conditions
71 Post contains images Leskova : N79969, I was essentially getting at what ConcordeBoy, in his personal way of putting things , has also said: since the routes that AI operates are re
72 Indianguy : POSTS They also bribed Indian Airlines into buying Airbus. More lies and fabrication from N79969. The CBI report (conducted by an opposition party’s
73 ConcordeBoy : EVEN if nonstops were an issue, AI could order A340-500’s later and retain many benefits coming from the family concept. ...course, that'd thwart th
74 N79969 : Roy, Go read the Economist article. It details the bribery of Indian Airlines quite well. Oh wait it is from a western nation and is thus corrupted. F
75 AirbusDriver : N79969 you claim that the A340-300 would face restriction in hot weather. Just for your information the max T/O weight for an airplane is base on the
76 N79969 : Airbusdriver, I'm not sure why you are bringing in obstacle clearance calculations into this exactly but I am referring to penalties for density altit
77 Indianguy : Go read the Economist article. It details the bribery of Indian Airlines quite well. You are the one making WILD unsubstantiated allegations about br
78 Post contains images Solnabo : Dont know what the yankees are screaming about in here!? My God, you´re selling alot of B 738´s, WTH is it important that Boeing HAS to sell the tri
79 Post contains images Leskova : N79969, as is quite well known, when Air France wanted longer range or larger capacity aircraft, the 345 and 346 were out because they come with Rolls
80 N79969 : Leskova, I don't think the evidentiary standards of courts apply in normal discussions. But I understand what you are saying. The bottom line is that
81 BarfBag : There's very little comparison between the US and France vis-a-vis their commercial/military relationship with Pakistan in relation to India. I don't
82 Adria : Dynkrisolo: Politics rules the world and so it rules the aircraft industrie. If the US government wouldn't support Boeings military products they woul
83 Post contains images Mandala499 : Bloody hell... does this have to go into a war? ***short rant*** If Airbus political discounts are bad, then how about Boeing's purchase of ex SQ A343
84 Dynkrisolo : Adria: Let's stay on the topic. You said 80% of the aircraft orders were influenced by politics. You used Delta as your example which is incorrect. I
85 Post contains images B747-437B : the concern is whether the buyer can actually utilize the aircraft and make money out of such a large capacity jump!!! Somehow I don't think that is a
86 Jaysit : -437B: Have you heard anything about the finality of this deal? Or will it be questioned and sink once again in another commitee?
87 N79969 : Jingoistic whining? I don't see any in my posts.
88 B747-437B : Have you heard anything about the finality of this deal? Or will it be questioned and sink once again in another commitee? The proposal has now been f
89 Post contains images Mandala499 : Dynkrisolo... Boeing's purchase of the ex SQ A343s wasn't bad... I never said it is... I was just putting an equal comparison to the so called politic
90 Businessflyer : It makes me laugh that people can be so passionately in favour of a particular aircraft manufacturer that they fail to see the blatant hypocrisy in th
91 MD-11 forever : Well put Businessflyer!! Nothing to add, besides that in the cited Sabena case, not the airbus sales people signed the contract on behalf of Sabena, t
92 Indianguy : Jingoistic whining? I don't see any in my posts. I know! Thats a common trait in your type! You often dont see the obvious! Mandala: Excellent Post t
93 N79969 : "I know! Thats a common trait in your type! You often dont see the obvious! " What do you know exactly? What type would that be? Get busy filing your
94 Post contains images Mandala499 : It ended up as trial by media basically... The Blowpipe ? Damn, I forgot which one BAe developed... it was some years back... Javelin/Blowpipe/Whichev
95 ConcordeBoy : Airbus promises to dish out contracts to Indian aerospace Airbus promised that????? Dont think so... the French Government did. Therein lies the root
96 B747-437B : Airbus promised that????? Dont think so... the French Government did. Airbus Industrie promised the offset of A380 components to India. The French Gov
97 N79969 : "When the US eventually decides that it will treat Boeing the way Europe treats Airbus, they will be screaming bloody murder in Europe. What makes the
98 Post contains images Chrisdigo : N79969: I am a licensed attorney I am a private pilot Hey!! Aren't you Forrest Gump? Chris
99 Post contains images GKirk : They should just have bought 50 Shorts 360s. Then everybody would be happy Chrisdigo: ROFLMAO
100 Post contains images B747-437B : The 737-800's are destined for the proposed No-Frills cattleboat to the Gulf service that AI is launching, and would be configured in an all economy l
101 ConcordeBoy : sad
102 Motech722 : I've been reading through this thread and have got to say, this is one of the funniest threads I've seen. It started off serious, but when you have pe
103 Post contains images Mandala499 : N79969, We are free to disagree. I appreciate the respectful disagreement. For me, I put Airbus' and Boeing's sales strategies as the same because if
104 Adria : I do not get it. Air India ordered the A340 because it is more cost effective for them. If Airbus lowered the price it is not a big deal. I guess the
105 Post contains images Mandala499 : That's why I blame their salespeople, not the airplane Mandala499
106 ConcordeBoy : I guess the 777 isn't that good like somebody wants to believe. Have you bothered/been able to read what's been written by credible sources (such as B
107 Donder10 : re:the 340's layout.The 343 has been approved for a 10F-24J-235Y layout with F pitched at 76", J at 62" and Y at 32". Is there that much point in havi
108 B747-437B : Is there that much point in having 2 premium classes if the difference in leg room is 14"? F class will feature the flat bed seats in a 5-across layou
109 N79969 : Motech, I never claimed to know everything nor will I. Why don't you point out where I am incorrect rather than fabricating statements and attributing
110 Ant72LBA : N79969: I respect your posts and enjoy much of the "banter" (is this an English only word? if so "discussion") you have with other a.net members. Must
111 Jaysit : A 5-abreast First Class cabin? Looks like AI still want to be behind the curve on premium cabin creature comforts. Their First Class seats are nice, b
112 Post contains images Mandala499 : Adria and Concorde Boy,(not sure if I'm directing this on the right people... sorry if it's not aimed correctly! ) Bring down the price down so much,
113 Scorpio : N79969, Why don't you point out where I am incorrect For the x millionth time: you are incorrect when you claim that Airbus screwed Sabena, and you ar
114 Leskova : And then there's always the report of THE SABENA ENQUIRY COMMITTEE which, at no point whatsoever, accuses Airbus of any wrongdoing - what is said in t
115 B-HOP : N79699: - However hard you try to sell 777, face it, both A and B are not exactly tidy in selling their planes
116 Dynkrisolo : The A300 had a rough start, but really got going after a while. Well over 500 have been sold, and on top of that 255 A310, based on the same design,
117 Scorpio : First, Douglas at the time had a successful DC-9 program to cross-subsidize the less successful DC-8 line, Airbus didn't have one. Wrong. Before the t
118 Dynkrisolo : Wrong. Before the takeover by McDonnell the DC-9 was the main reason Douglas was going bankrupt. Sure, they sold many of them but the plane was a lot
119 Motech722 : N79969, you're right, you never claimed to know everything, but from reading so many of your posts, you seemingly won't concede that other people migh
120 Post contains images Mandala499 : Dynkrisolo & Scorpio, The reason that the DC9 caused Douglas to go bust wasn't because it was more expensive to build them than they originally calcul
121 Scorpio : What a load of crap! Uhm. No. Fact. This is quite documented, as a matter of fact. Do a search, you'll be surprised what ows up. So, now number of air
122 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : What a load of crap! Uhm. No. Fact. This is quite documented, You're taking one snapshot and assume it's true for all the other time. This is not the
123 Post contains links N79969 : Motech, I would like to post my full reply but I am pressed for time at the moment. I will do so later. However I will respond to one point now. Airbu
124 Scorpio : You're taking one snapshot and assume it's true for all the other time. Um. No I'm not. I never ever said that Douglas, or better McDD, never got the
125 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: I chanllenge you to find it in my replies that I said anything about pre-MDC days. You were the one who later limited it to pre-MDC days afte
126 United777 : Damm it just took me about 45mins to catch up and read all the post in this topic. My comment about AI's order............."Just a sad day for Indian
127 AvObserver : Excerpting from N79969's link: "Airbus is jointly owned by two private aerospace companies, European Aeronautic Defense & Space Co. and BAE Systems, b
128 Indianguy : N79969: So what you are basically saying is that 1)Airbus products are comparatively of lesser quality than Boeing USA, and as a consequence 2) NEEDS
129 N79969 : Scorpio, I read the article again. It clearly implies that improper Airbus practices helped push Sabena over the edge. For the millionth time go read
130 Post contains links N79969 : Motech, I have not attacked the government help Airbus got at the beginning. Ever. Frankly, that was just smart public policy to help a fledgling com
131 Airliner777 : Guys, when in this world will you STOP the "Airbus V.S. Boeing Topic?" I'm tired of all these conflicting posts. Let's relax now, because at the end,
132 Scorpio : OK, this is going to be a long one... Dynkrisolo, I chanllenge you to find it in my replies that I said anything about pre-MDC days. First off, you on
133 Post contains links UTA_flyinghigh : Is it just me, or is the third picture of the A340 an A340-500 : http://www.airindia.com/article.asp?articleid=229# Mistake or scoop ? Will
134 A340-Fan : I think you' re correct UTA_flyinghigh, the last one looks like a A345. greetz Nils
135 N79969 : Scorpio, When have you been ever polite? In this country calling people "liar" without basis and calling someone else opinions "BS" repeatedly is not
136 Scorpio : N79969, When have you been ever polite? In this country calling people "liar" without basis and calling someone else opinions "BS" repeatedly is not c
137 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : First off, you only mentioned Douglas, not MDC Why don't you check what the Long Beach division was known as after McDonnell and Dogulas merged. Well
138 Post contains images Mandala499 : Scorpio, Of course one cannot change the price just like that. Good explanation on the DC situation, however, did they really sell 400 before the firs
139 Scorpio : It was pretty obvious in my other posts that I was talking about the DC-8 and DC-9 programs as a whole. You claimed that the DC-9 was used to cross-su
140 Scorpio : Mandala499, By the end of 1966, one year after the first DC-9 entered service, and at the time the problems started becoming clear to Douglas, the com
141 Post contains images Vimanav : I have visited A.net now after quite some time and only because I expected a major bombshell on the AI order.. I am not disappointed. Hey -437B, Gamps
142 Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: I will repeat this for the last time. The overall delivery of the A300/310 is not at all indicative of how successful the program is. You hav
143 Scorpio : Look, none of us know whether or not the A300 ever recovered its R&D cost, the figures are not out there. We're not going to change each other's minds
144 Post contains images Mandala499 : Scorpio, Agree, disagree, but geez, 400 backlog that quickly in those days... Yeah, one hell of a problem ! The banks had a field day! Vimanav, Want m
145 N79969 : Scorpio, That you continue to argue that Economist does not clearly imply that Airbus corruption had something to do with the downfall of Sabena frank
146 Post contains images Mandala499 : N79969, A technical recommendation for the 777 doesn't automatically mean the deal should have gone to the 777 ? I think B747-437B is in a better posi
147 Scorpio : That you continue to argue that Economist does not clearly imply that Airbus corruption had something to do with the downfall of Sabena frankly makes
148 Mandala499 : OK... I'm fed up! My business partner dealt with Airbus, MoD Australia, NASA, Boeing, MDC, Aerospatiale, Thomson CSF, BAe, and their buyers... This is
149 Post contains links Leskova : Ok, against all my instincts, I will post one more message in this thread... This is the link to the report by the Chairman of The Sabena Enquiry Comm
150 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Look, none of us know whether or not the A300 ever recovered its R&D cost, the figures are not out there. We're not going to change each other's mind
151 N79969 : Scorpio, Read the article. According to your reasoning, the Economist just threw in that story about investigators in the Sabena matter raiding Airbus
152 Post contains images Mandala499 : N79969, Well, in my personal cases so far... commercial decisions were made on both the tech recommendation and the sweetener deal... AI is govt. owne
153 Ant72LBA : This must be the most interesting thread that I've read on a.net in the time I've been a member (and I haven't had time to read all the posts). Respec
154 Magyar : N9969 wrote, "Think for a moment why I say it is entirely appropriate for the United States government to apply pressure (very heavy if necessary) so
155 Scorpio : N79969, Seriously, I'm starting to wonder whether you have any intelligence at all. Honestly. According to your reasoning, the Economist just threw in
156 N79969 : Ant72LBA, I think Europe and Japan have a very good argument before the WTO. The US tariffs on steel are unfair and economically harmful. Magyar, I do
157 Scorpio : The implication from the Economist is clear among the rational. Then, tell me, how come you're the only person seeing this? Several people have alread
158 Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: Why don't you just go to the library and read it for yourself, instead of counting on what others have or have not said? It's not like the me
159 Scorpio : Why don't you just go to the library and read it for yourself, instead of counting on what others have or have not said? It's not like the megazine is
160 Dynkrisolo : If SR was the sole instigator for the larger order, then SR would have reissued a new RFP for the larger number of aircraft on behalf of SN. It meant
161 Scorpio : To be quite honest, i don't see what you're getting at here. It seems to me that you're suggesting that Airbus should have REFUSED to sell more planes
162 N79969 : Scoripio, Apparently, I'm not the only person seeing it. Further no one has 'backed you up.' You cannot count the people who disagree with me on other
163 Scorpio : Further no one has 'backed you up.' Read replies 115, 120 and 150. I am not sure if ConcordeBoy posted the entire piece. That is why I suggested visit
164 Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: When an airline re-issues an RFP to increase the size of the order specified in their original RFP, it is usually that one of the airframers
165 Scorpio : OK, now you're just guessing, aren't you? Airbus was not the one that came up with the offer to order more planes, Swissair WANTED SN to do so. I've s
166 Dynkrisolo : OK, now you're just guessing, aren't you? Nope. As I have said many times, this is not an uncommon practice by the airframers. If it was solely SR's
167 N79969 : Scorpio, We are arguing about the Economist said. Leskova kindly linked the report about Sabena's failure. Within that that report there is another li
168 Scorpio : Be it as 'common' as it may, it doesn't prove anything. The decision to replace the entire 737 fleet was taken quite early in the process, at the sugg
169 Scorpio : Motech disagreed with my reliance on the Economist not with what it said. I quote: I will say that Scorpio gave a great post to answer some of the que
170 Dynkrisolo : EK's example is no different from QF's 330/380 and SQ's 777 orders. In all these examples, the airframer involved played a major role in significantly
171 AA777 : People say "oh they should have chosen the A320 instead of the 737..." but then again, they could have chosen the 744's over the A340s to have commona
172 Scorpio : Airbus came back with the suggestion of replacing SN's whole narrowbody fleet with some additional financial incentives. That's how the reissuing RFP
173 Post contains images Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: Prove it. Until you do that, don't bother responding, And may I ask if you are going to prove that Swissair merely changed their minds? You h
174 N79969 : Scorpio, Motecho called me a 'know-it-all' or something. He did not like what I had to say and was using you as an example of another person who feels
175 Post contains images Scorpio : Since your last response yet again confirms that you are unable to prove any of your statement, or to even back them up with credible sources, I guess
176 N79969 : Scorpio, Even in what you just posted, there are things to arouse strong suspicion about the Airbus role here. Swissair really did not score much from
177 Dynkrisolo : Scorpio: First off, compliments to your good detective work. But ... The investigation was mostly targeted at finding possible wrong-doings by SR's ma
178 Post contains images Vimanav : Amazing how the recent posts on this thread have had nothing whatsoever to do with AI's airplane selection and has just become another A vs B - the ul
179 Scorpio : Dynkrisolo, The investigation was mostly targeted at finding possible wrong-doings by SR's management, so all the documents you cited were of that nat
180 N79969 : Scorpio, Fine. You posted something that makes no sense: to get a measly $ 5.7 million in cash Swissair guaranteed the purchase of 34 airplanes for a
181 B747-437B : As for the AI order, just look at the article posted by Roy. He even posted his source, so you can't just ignore it by claiming he made it up. With al
182 Post contains images Mandala499 : B747-437B, "The 777 was a technically superior plane for the intented role, but the savings in acquisition costs for the A340 gave that airframe the a
183 Post contains images Leskova : Oh, come on now, Mandala499 - let's not ruin this fun thread with things like sensible posts or facts... reading along here is way too much fun as it
184 Post contains images Mandala499 : Leskova, What would drive me nuts is the strike thing on the other thread... Remember the three questions? Any ideas on what three questions we can pu
185 Post contains images Mandala499 : Well, let's go back to some technical stuff... After discussions with A340(300 converting to 500) and 777 pilots from SQ and MH, I've come across some
186 N79969 : Mandala499, Are you also assuming equal pax and cargo revenue despite differences in capacity? Just curious.
187 Post contains images Mandala499 : N79969, I just want to remind you on what you wrote in reply #152 In casual debates such as these, I do not think we need to use such formalistic conc
188 B747-437B : Are you also assuming equal pax and cargo revenue despite differences in capacity? Capacity difference is negligible here. AI is putting 10-24-235 int
189 N79969 : Mandala499, I was not dissecting your post. Rather I just was curious about where you were coming from.
190 Post contains images Mandala499 : N79969, It seems we need more sense of humour here, I fear I'm loosing mine! Mandala499
191 Post contains images B747-437B : It seems we need more sense of humour here Agreed. I can't wait to hear the results of Roy's public interest litigation against Boeing! [Edited 2003-1
192 Post contains images Mandala499 : B747-437B, I can't wait to hear the results of Roy's public interest litigation against Boeing! It better be longer than Singapore_Air's trip report o
193 Post contains images Leskova : Yup, that livery is definitely timeless - there's nothing that they've spent even less time on... No, seriously (ok, ok, I know - not really the norm
194 SM777 : Hi A.net Forum Members; I've just joined this forum and since I'm from India, what better place to begin my 'inaugural flight' on A.net than the discu
195 B747-437B : I don't know what the Haathi Committee were doing when they decided on the 343, but they probably didn't check which airline last ordered this aircra
196 SM777 : B747-437B, thanks for your opinions. Some reactions to your comments : The sad part here is that a good and straightforward guy like Capt. Hathi is un
197 N79969 : "It seems we need more sense of humour here, I fear I'm loosing mine!" Mandala499, I don't disagree that more humor would be good.... [Edited 2003-11-
198 Post contains links B747-437B : And here comes the payoff from the French. France to outsource more defence equipment from India NEW DELHI : France is likely to purchase from India s
199 Hawk21M : Makes no sense.Should be the B777-200s & A319/320s. regds HAWK
200 Leskova : AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!! Please, people, let this thread die!!! B747-437B, that was known from more or less the beginn
201 Post contains images Mandala499 : Leskova, For once in this thread, I have to disagree with you ! KEEP IT ALIVE ! KEEP IT ALIVE Mandala499
202 Post contains images PIA777 : I am with Mandala499
203 Post contains images Leskova : Ok, Mandala499 and PIA777, you've got me beat - how bout a new round of "who killed Sabena"? Or are there more votes for "which committee actually rec
204 B747-437B : did Air India order the enhanced version of the A340, or the "regular" model? The board has approved the A340-313X.
205 N79969 : Leskova, Wish granted. "there is absolutely nothing unusual about this type of payoff: Boeing, Airbus, GE, P&W, RR and Canadair buy components from co
206 Post contains images Leskova : Hi N79969 - how have you been since we've last spoken... on this thread... Essentially, what you're getting at is exactly what I meant by from the fac
207 N79969 : Leskova, Fine. Thanks for asking. I genuinely appreciate friendly disagreement. Yes, you are correct in describing my views.
208 Post contains links B747-437B : Boeing writes to Air India asking to reconsider A340 order US-based aircraft manufacturing major Boeing has written to Air India pointing to the benef
209 Post contains images Mandala499 : I wonder which version of my replies here did they use ? J/K Glad to hear this... However, looks like they need a U2 to fly their new "alternative fli
210 ConcordeBoy : Sean, would the new Northern flight pass cross the Himalayas at a point where twinjets would be restricted?
211 Santhosh : S.K.George I think it would have been better if the Air India has choosen half B773 and the rest half A345's.Because the politetions play a good roll
212 Santhosh : S.K.George To be honest AI didn't go for Boeing 777's not because Pakistan had chosent it.Here in India politetions has big influence in these deals.W
213 B747-437B : would the new Northern flight pass cross the Himalayas at a point where twinjets would be restricted? Currently there is no trans-himalayan route that
214 Mog : Moot question - will service and reliability improve with these new planes? As well as schedules?
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