Others said that maybe MX was invited to make part of OneWorld.
Reply 52 was about MX and AM plan to merging and getting into SkyTeam.
*** But we all know MX ordered two weeks ago the A318s..., yeah and also how can we explain the 15 new B737s from AM and 38 options more.. (via lessors not AM) so, some people discard the possibility of MX/AM... and I do also, but it would be a similar example of TAM/RG... but in the long term they could make changes in order to end again with a fleet commonality. Also, interesting/strange things are going around AM.... like Aerolitoral merging with AeroMexico. And maybe in a near future finally we are going to see AeroCaribe merging with Mexicana.
So let's imagine this scenario....
AM/MX (hope I don't forget any airport) routes:
CANADA: YVR, YUL, YYZ.
USA: SFO, LAX, SJO / MROC), Costa Rica">SAN, ATL, PDX, SLC, DEN, TUS, OAK, ONT, SJC, SMF, LAS, PHX, ABQ, IAH, SAT, MIA, JFK, MCO, ORD, DFW, FLL. / *Looks like MX will drop EWR soon. *AM will open BOS in the first q of 2004.
Central and South America: GUa, SJO, SDQ, CCS, BOG, LIM, GRU, SCL, EZE. *MX was studying UIO.. but nothing confirmed yet.
EUROPE: CDG, MAD. *And it looks like MX will enter LHR and FRA....!
I'm including routes from AeroLitoral, AM, MX and QA.
The fleet would turn like this:
25 Saab340s + a possible order for 15 ERJ135 (Aerolitoral)
10 DC9-30s (QA)
07 DC9-30s (AM)
10 F100 (MX) + to be replaced with 10 A318s
17 MD87s + 3 more expected. (AM)
09 MD82s (AM)
09 MD83s (AM)
10 MD88s (AM)
15 B737-7W (AM)
15 A319s (MX)
27 A320s (MX)
17 B757s (AM/MX)
07 B767s (AM/MX ) AM expecting 3 more.. 2 -300s (February and November of 2004) and 1 -200s (June of 2004). MX expecting 2 more (January and February)
Total: 179 + 15 (EMB) + 3 (MD87) and 5 (B767s) = 202 - 15 (Saab340s) = 187 aircraft in the fleet.
In terms of fleet I think it wouldn't be a problem staying with a mix fleet of Embraers, Airbus and Boeing. In the short term MD80s could get MX paint as the rest of AM fleets. Later MD80s could be replaced with more 320 buses since MX it's flying almost 45 of this type (I know AM got also 45 MD80s..) but MX 320 buses are brand new!
Now, what would it be the best name to stay with?? We have to rembember that MX got 82 years of history... one the oldest airlines in the world..... and MX has a big prescense in the US market... one of the most important markets.
So, what's your opinion??!!!.... Mexico needs a flag carrier???
Ricardo Morales - APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
Ar385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 5515 posts, RR: 26 Reply 1, posted (10 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3998 times:
We can draw some parallels with the Canadian experience. It was a disaster. Air Canada is in Chapter 11 and people complained for years of horrible service and high fares.
But that does not have to be the scenario here.
1. When CP and AC merged LCC carriers were non existent in Canada. Now in Mexico we have powerful ones 6A, Azteca, JR, Magnicharters, Allegro, and at least three of them with powerful networks in the US. That did not exist in Canada
2. I don't believe fleet commonality is an issue. Many airlines have airbus and Boeing fleets and are ok. If it were to be an issue, use the Boeings for long-haul or high density (try to get to MTY from MEX on a Friday afternoon) and the airbus for the other routes. The other thing to do would be simply to return the ones that don't fit your strategic plan and period, you have fleet commonality.
3. The alliance to join would be simply SkyTeam
The only problem I see and this is major, are the unions. Let's se how that is dealt with.
LeoDF From Mexico, joined Aug 1999, 359 posts, RR: 5 Reply 5, posted (10 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3811 times:
Truth is that Mexico should have the number one carrier in all Latin America. Now that many airlines are merging i.e. Tam and Varig and some others are growing quickly like Lan Chile, it's time to think in our future.
Unions should think a bit. No airline, or one big airline. They think they can control everything, well they can't. If you tell them, no job for anyone or jobs for some, the latter will always prevail!
If Mexico ever thinks about an "open skies" agreement I can assure you it's Mexico's doom!
Mexicana has experience. Mexicana has a young fleet. Mexicana has destinations.
If they wanted to, they could be, as stated by NAVEGA, Mexico's number 1 carrier. No questions asked! But they need to keep working on their image and service, as well as their markets.
Rough competition provided by Aviacsa, Azteca, Magnicharters and others only makes matters worse for all Mexican airlines. In the 80's you had 2 choices: Mexicana and Aeromexico. In the 90's you had around 7 choices (Aerocalifornia, Magnicharters, Aviacsa, Aeromar and Allegro). Today, you have all these choices plus Aerolineas Internacionales (now gone), Azteca, Global and the others growing quite quickly.
A lot of pressure in the market, and still growing. Azteca's and Aviacsa's publicity campaigns are giving a lot of battle to Mexicana and Aeromexico. Of course they benefit the costumer, but affects the airlines' economy. Whoever has bad management will not stay in the game!
So, I do believe Mexicana has a lot to give. But still has a lot to learn, and has to concentrate on growth and risk! Risking is the only way they can learn and earn!!!
Ghost77 From Mexico, joined Mar 2000, 5172 posts, RR: 52 Reply 7, posted (10 years 1 month 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3771 times:
Mexicana is not pulling out of EWR in fact they are adding flights starting December and changing to an evening arrival and morning departure.
I'm glad they are staying at EWR! Afaik, MX serves EWR 4x a week, will they increase it to a daily flight???
You know if the MEx-PTY route will be back with own MX metal??? I know they code share with CM but I wish either MX or AM take this route... I just don't understand how they let CM and LAB take complete control of the route and passengers.
Regardless, Mexicana is getting ready to expand and take over as the number 1 carrier in Mexico and in Latin America.
I hope this to be true! Definetly a Mexican airline should be the number 1 in Latin America.
A De Leo,
I entirely agree with you, Mexicana needs to be more agreesive and risk.... and not only them also AeroMexico and Azteca and Aviacsa.... I once remember reading Pzurita1 ideas and saying why not Aviacsa flying to the south... not South America but why not starting with Central America. It would be nice to see Aviacsa giving hard times to TACA, COPA and LAB.
Ricardo Morales - APM
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
Jopavon From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 304 posts, RR: 6 Reply 8, posted (10 years 1 month 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3702 times:
This scenario could be interesting, although a tough one...I'll drop some ideas, but I think we can put the best of both airlines.
Brand: I'll keep MX since it's reputation outside Mexico is outstanding. AM is OK, but MX has been around for long and good...4th oldest... Fleet: I guess going to Airbus is the right way, MX has done a good job and I suppose since AM 737s are leases, they could exchange them for Airbuses, given the fact that instead of 15 they could include the MDs in the negotiation and get a better deal. Livery: Although an airbus might look nicely on AM colours, I would stick to MX's or a new combined livery. Coach Service: Simply, MX (friendlier) Business Class Short/Medium Haul: MX and AM are both OK, but I'll still offer the fresh orange juice (I hope AM still does it). Business Class Long Haul: MX might surprise us with the cabin on EZE, but I think both AM & MX could offer a better product than other airlines. To beat long haul service to US airlines, will be easy, and europeans, I guess we can easily offer a better product. Flat beds and TV with interactive games such as SQ & LX are a must. I'll love eating chilaquiles on an Business Long Haul on MX to Europe!!! FF: Newsletter: AM's, Name: Frecuenta I just like it...I would be very happy to have both accounts combined...many more miles. Unions: MX relationship is much better than AM. Management: None, they need to be more aggressive, I agree with LeoDF. Although I don't think it's a lack of vision, I think they are cautious because their finances are weak. Routes: Once combined, eliminate a couple of international duplicates and increase capacity such as ORD, LAX & MIA. In Mexico, although coordinated, some flights are redundant. They can free planes and add new destinations. Offices: MX's tower is much nicer (not theirs, but still a nice building on final approach to Mexico City)
I suppose I'm leaving out many ideas...I'll like to read some of yours...
Goose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 16 Reply 10, posted (10 years 1 month 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3681 times:
When CP and AC merged LCC carriers were non existent in Canada. Now in Mexico we have powerful ones 6A, Azteca, JR, Magnicharters, Allegro, and at least three of them with powerful networks in the US. That did not exist in Canada
WestJet was operating in Canada for four years before the CP-AC merger in 2000, almost entirely in Western markets - YYC, YVR, YWG, YEG, and so on.
But you're right - it was a disaster. AC's eyes were certainly bigger than its stomach.
Would not surprise me... After all AA invested millions in Canadian, and where did they end up???
With the short end of the stick. AA wanted to purchase a larger stake in CP, supposedly in the hopes of perhaps using CP's base in YVR as a means to circumvent more congested US bases, like SFO and LAX, for Transpac routes.
However, they were prevented from doing so by caps on foreign ownership in place by the Canadian government.... caps which were instituted with AC cheering them on (they warned the government and were very public about how they didn't like the idea of "foreign carriers running Canadian airlines and affecting Canadian air travel...." - I remember it well).... caps which, now, are under review because AC wants backing from Star partners such as LH.
Pzurita1 From Greenland, joined Sep 2002, 1385 posts, RR: 15 Reply 14, posted (10 years 1 month 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 3501 times:
Two fine tunnings:
It is irrelevant the fact that MX is the 4th oldest airline in the world. KLM brand is disappearing though it is the OLDEST airline. More sound arguments should be used if anyone is willing to keep Mexicana instead of Aeromexico if a merger happens (and I am positive it needs to happen with proper antitrust legislation).
Yes, CM might have the best network in Latin America, but is not Latin America largest airline; it is RG. I am sure MX nor AM will never have such an extense network as CM mainly due to geographic reasons. However, AA is not the largest airline by its network, but by the pax it flies. The same happens to RG and could happen with a Mexican airline. MX or AM could untap large markets between Central America, Mexico, Europe, Caribbean, USA and Canada... carrying twice as much pax as it transports now.
I am waiting to see what MX is cooking up. So, March 2004, uh???? OK, will have to wait.
LatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2666 posts, RR: 14 Reply 15, posted (10 years 1 month 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 3461 times:
As a matter of fact you are correct. Mexicana was the largest airline in Latin America in the late 70s in terms of passengers carried. The airline accomplished this by flying a standard fleet of 44 722s.
My brazilian friend, as the saying goes: don't be so quick to open your mouth. Despite the fact that they have the greenlight to merge, VARIG is not out of the dark woods just yet. It is still practically one step away from shutting down, so lets just say a prayer that it doesn't occur, cause that won't be a joke but a sad day.
Okay Sir, what do you know that we don't. Come on now, spill your guts... What's the important chisme?
Fly727 From Mexico, joined Jul 2003, 1789 posts, RR: 19 Reply 18, posted (10 years 1 month 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3335 times:
In my opinion such merger should not happen and will not occur. Up to now this is the very first rumor I have heard and has no trustful financial reason -yet it is turning out to be a very interesting marketing exercise for all of us-.
The keyword here is COMPETITION. Competition makes the airlines to offer better services, reduce costs and in overall be more efficient. In the other hand, as someone has explained, it would be very attractive to an investor to buy a Monopoly instead of a single player of a highly competitive industry. I hope we -users, workers and tax payers- do not get betrayed by the antimonopoly institutions by letting such a tactical move take place.
Do Mexico really need a flag carrier? Don't you think their airlines have gained a respectable reputation among the industry? Throwing that overboard doesn't seem a smart move.
IMO. NO to the merger (if that, of course, would ever be thought about).
My 2 pesos.
There are no stupid questions... just stupid people!
JOSEMEX From Mexico, joined Oct 1999, 1539 posts, RR: 28 Reply 19, posted (10 years 1 month 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 3301 times:
I agree with you. Unfortunately, i wouldn't be too surprised to see the government merge both carriers in order to sell them to some fat cat such as Slim, Vazquez or whatever, even if it didn't make sense.
A few days ago it was announced that MX was ending their code-share agreement (including mileage accrual and award redemptiom) with UA. You can read it here:
Mexicana757 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 2999 posts, RR: 29 Reply 21, posted (10 years 1 month 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 3229 times:
I think this merger will not happen. If they did merge they will have a complicated fleet. The management and unions(MX has good relations with its unions and Am doesn't) of both will clash. The management of both airlines are going to fight for control if both were merge. Pilots and flight attendants of both are going to want to get payed the same rate as the airline that gets paid the most. I dont know if pilots at AM and MX who fly the 757 get paid the same rate.
I think Aero California, Aeromar, Allegro, Azteca, and Aviacsa will put up a fight to stop the merger. Or they might not even put a finger on it since both AM and MX are part of the same company.
If Cintra were to merge AM and MX they better get good and aggresive CEO and management. A management that knows how to run a big airline and stop the red from flowing.
Whatever MX is cooking and will have ready for early 2004, I hope it will be good. Rojo tell us what you know *takes out $100 bill* I think they should keep MX name if they were to merge
Alvaro From Mexico, joined Feb 2001, 239 posts, RR: 1 Reply 22, posted (10 years 1 month 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3200 times:
I think we are all making a huge thing out of this. MX is simply ending its codeshare agreement, that´s about it for now and we are already merging both AM and MX, saying Slim already brought it, talking about what their fleet would be like???
Seriously, let´s not jump into conclusions yet and wait for the final news.
En Mexicana cumplimos 85 años de hacerte sentir el placer de volar sin limites
LatinPlane From United States of America, joined Dec 1999, 2666 posts, RR: 14 Reply 23, posted (10 years 1 month 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 3179 times:
I kind of more of less believe in what Ghost77 told us about that Mexicana will introduce a new corporate image next year.
Hmmm... What do you guys think? Is it time for a new makeover? I like the current corp image, its very Mexican, but in that same matter, it could be a little too ethnic. We've seen what a great professional color scheme makeover can do for an airline's image (i.e. LAN).
P.S. Just don't touch the stylized eagle. That's for Mexicana what the blue globe was for Pan Am.