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Should Milton Resign From Air Canada?  
User currently offlineDash8King From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2743 posts, RR: 10
Posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3333 times:

Personally I think Yes! So do 93% of the people who voted on the poll Robtv.com has. What good has he done for the company? Apparently the board doesn't think so as they offered him a raise this year. Milton however did turn it down, I have a feeling if he took it the Union would have had his head.

55 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

He has destroyed shareholder wealth by running AC into bankruptcy. Common shares are effectively worthless.

He should be fired. He should not be allowed the luxury of resigning on his terms.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineRindt From Germany, joined May 2000, 930 posts, RR: 13
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 3286 times:

Pardon my french - but, F*CK yes!

That low-life scumbag must leave now. He hasn't done anything for the company but to line his own pockets. Except maybe, pumping out the Tango, Jetz, Jazz, and ZIP color schemes for us to shoot  Big grin

Let's see what he's done in short - taken an essentially monopolized airline (which by definition would mean endless profits; a cash-cow if you will) and turned it into a dismal failure worth absolutely nothing, essentially. They now own little or none of their aircraft, and continue to lose money left and right. And with their spiraling dive towards terra-firma, they unfortunately took Canadian Airlines with them.

Granted, Canadian Airlines had their own share of problems (mostly due to the poor Wardair buy-out, and the governments' favouritism towards Air Canada at the time), but Milton took the merger in the completely opposite direction by making things extremely miserable for CP employees. All the countless stories of how the cronies at AC mistreated CP employees right off the bat is really sickening - such as AC guys coming in with garbage bags demanding all CP memorabilia be thrown out, or risk losing your job. Or the time when CP employees lost all non-rev priviledges to watch AC employees take their seats. And so on and so forth. Boy do I ever feel sorry for the CP guys at YUL, ouch.
And who could forget, the pilots seniority dispute : CP pilots wanting 1-1 and AC only giving 1 for 3. It seemed as though whatever way there was to lower employee morale, Milton was at the forefront of it all, doing whatever he could to rub salt in the wounds.

And now we fast-forward to today... with an airline losing endless amounts of money everyday, and only NOW does he finally get the brainy-idea to transfer the main "focus" on their international product. Wow. I'm speechless. I think anyone with an IQ above room temperature could've figured that one out.


Milton simply has no business savvy, and has forever lacked a fiscally viable operational plan. And to put the final nail in the coffin, this sick bastard can resign anytime and walk away with a $6 million severance package.

Yeah, I think it's safe to say he should go .

-Rob



What other people think of you is none of your business!
User currently offlineBoeing764 From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 298 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3276 times:

Yes, send him far away from Canada!!!!


From Dr. King's America to Nelson Mandela's Africa, the journey of equality moves on.
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 4, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Rindt-- Pardon my french - but, F*CK yes!
That low-life scumbag must leave now.
..this sick bastard can resign anytime


Tell us how you really feel, Rob  Big grin


Personally I do think he should go, just not quite yet since so very much is 'up in the air' with the carrier presently. In a more perfect world he probably would have been handed his hat a long time ago now, but oh well, have to put up with him at least a bit longer still.

I don't think it's by any means all his fault, what happened to AC over the last four years or so. And even the internal dynamic between labour and management, sort of bipolar -- the unions being used to sort of a mandarin-run, slightly byzantine and eternal offshoot world of the Canadian Federal Government on one hand (at least the original AC guys anyway, pre-merger), while Bob on the other barging in with his management minions, with sort of "cigar-chomping American "Chainsaw Al"-type bluster and gusto. To a certain extent both 'sides' sort of deserving one another, since their respective perceptions of the company were both probably extreme and both needed confronting in a big way.


However, things got complicated, and the merger happened, and then the economy turned jittery, and then the Sept. 11 catastrophe hit the industry and it seemed like one thing after another. I don't think Bob should have to carry the can for all these misfortunes or even a lot of their ramifications -- it likely would have been a real tough helm to steer, for literally anyone else instead.

However what I do find bad is that he hasn't 'shared the pain' of the company, when it comes to his own already-fat cut of payment. There really ought to be a much closer tying of company performance to what he takes home, than has been the case during the last few unprecedently tumultuous years at AC. Something to make him give more of a damn or something about where the company is going, not maybe strut instead as if everything's hunky-dory, or think "oh I've got so many millions already, I'm such a powerful and successful guy at what I do, aren't I".


User currently offlineRindt From Germany, joined May 2000, 930 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3253 times:

Mark,

"I don't think Bob should have to carry the can for all these misfortunes or even a lot of their ramifications "

Yet his foe over at WestJet Mr CliveBeddoe steered his ship in the right direction, and hasn't had a single unprofitable quarter? I'm sorry, but Milton is the ONLY one to blame, and no one else. It's high-time he admitted that, instead of constantly aluding the travelling public that everything was "a-ok".

The simple solution would be to float the MayFlower up the St. Lawrence River, and then ship that fool back to Boston, where he originally came from. Since he's an American, he doesn't feel accountable for the mess he's made. If he were running a US-based carrier, the competition is so much more fierce, he'd be forced to keep his balls in line. And some would argue that he's accountable only to his share-holders, but that arguement holds no water since it's blatently obvious he's done nothing but lose their money.

But now the questions remains... who do you replace him with? We need a Canadian who's entrenched in the aviation industry in Canada, and not another foreigner thinking they've got all the solutions.

-Rob



What other people think of you is none of your business!
User currently offlineLymanm From Canada, joined Jan 2001, 1138 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Yes, but only because it would do wonders for management-employee relations. The CAW, CUPE and notably the ACPA would love to tar & feather the guy.

Otherwise, I feel he has been given a bad shake. Besides his obviously dismal financial record since 2001 (which is largely independent of his actions as CEO), he did save AC from a hostile takeover from Onex/CP in 2000, introduce industry leading Tango (which has been used in the US as the successful Song and soon to be launched, innovative UA Ted) and successfully negotiated a B-scale into AC employees, code named Zip. Most importantly, this Zip payscale will grow and is what will allow AC to survive and thrive in the Li era, undoubtably with Milton at the helm.



buhh bye
User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3205 times:

"Milton took the merger in the completely opposite direction by making things extremely miserable for CP employees. All the countless stories of how the cronies at AC mistreated CP employees right off the bat is really sickening - such as AC guys coming in with garbage bags demanding all CP memorabilia be thrown out, or risk losing your job. Or the time when CP employees lost all non-rev priviledges to watch AC employees take their seats."

And you tell ME this man is an effective CEO? Bull F***KING Shit. The way he and his scum encrusted crown corporation minded cronies treated the ex-CP employees was, and is, deplorable. Milton did nothing to discourage the ill feelings the AC and CP camps harboured towards each other. In fact, this pigheaded narcisstic moneyminded asshole encouraged the unhealthy rivalry
and battles. One airline? One team of merged employees? Give me a break.

"Milton simply has no business savvy, and has forever lacked a fiscally viable operational plan.

Thank you.

"And to put the final nail in the coffin, this sick bastard can resign anytime and walk away with a $6 million severance package."

Sickening, truly sickening.

I ask this, is there not a competent Canadian to be found to run this ship?



User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 3196 times:

I ask this, is there not a competent Canadian to be found to run this ship?

Actually, whether he's Canadian or not is irrelevant. The shareholders want good leadership. Period.

Milton was just another millionaire's son who was well-connected and introduced to Hollis Harris at early age. Connections, paternalism and nepotism. Had Milton been born into a poor Southern US family with the same intelligence, he might be a mechanic or warehouse worker now. Unfortunately for thousands of AC shareholders....he was born into wealth.






Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCessnapimp From Canada, joined Oct 2001, 1320 posts, RR: 19
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3183 times:

My question is:

How does Victor Li REALLY feel about Management. Maybe Mr Li is waiting until the introduction of his stake before making his move. Call me naive (I am naive) but Mr Li sounds like a powerful buisnessman, ready to prove daddy that he too can swing companies around from rock bottom to money-making powerhouse. He's obviously keeping a lot of his plans for AC to himself right now. I would love to take a peek.

Like my grandmother used to say: "never underestimate a powerful asian buisnessman trying to prove something to his even more powerful father." All of his complimenting of AC mgmnt... bah... PR humbug I know...

I think Milton should resign for the same reason as Lymanm pointed out. If that would ever happen, airport bars would be filled with AC employees that same evening I assure you. I would help unification. Big thing. The editorial by one AC employee in today's Toronto Star newspaper sums it up very nicely.

[Edited 2003-11-12 15:50:56]

User currently offlineAF-A319 From France, joined Oct 1999, 603 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 3160 times:

The fact that he is staying and receiving 1% of the "New Air Canada" stocks is

1- Highly unethical
2- Inefficient - how can he keep any leadership after having made millions when almost 99% of the workforce has suffered from his mistakes!

just my 0.21 cents!


User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 11, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3136 times:

"Actually, whether he's Canadian or not is irrelevant. The shareholders want good leadership. Period."

Can't blame a Canadian fella for askin, can ya? And so true, it is irrelevant, in light of good, positive and progressive leadership.

And yes, perhaps we should wait and see exaxtly what Mr. Li has in store for AC. Mind you, this initial move on his part ie bonuses and stock options for the "super elite" of AC does not get things off to a roaring start. I'm afraid Mr. Li, savvy as he may or may not be, is in for a few unpleasant surprises with the justifiably pissed off bargaining divisions.



User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Cessnapimp:

Some news reports mention that Li is looking at the AC "project" as a short term, low risk gamble - get out (unload) in 3-4 years, or as soon as he makes a good return on his money. As Canada's "only" international carrier the short term upside potential is worth the risk. Evidently, Li (his father?) did an in-and-out with Orange PLC and made $15 billion. So, I don't think that with such a short term investment horizon that Li wants to change the management team.



Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3119 times:

I have a very naive question to ask. Can someone explain to me why it was/is that the Milton and his super elites had any say at all in who was to be the decided upon investor in AC? Correct me here please, and please, enlighten me, but seeing as how AC is itself restructuring under the supervision of the courts, would it not be the courts who would play a major role in determining who would be brought on-board? It's just that I find it more than a little odd (and twisted) that the CEO and board who steered a near-monopoly carrier into bankruptcy through their own incompetence (and please, don't mention Sept 11 or SARS factors here; WJ, for example, made it through both unfortunate incidents with flying colours) would be qualified to ascertain who the investor would be.

Signed,
Naive in YYZ


User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 3110 times:

Canadi>nBoy-- Mind you, this initial move on his part ie bonuses and stock options for the "super elite" of AC does not get things off to a roaring start.

I agree, seems like it's a first step in an entirely wrong direction  Sad


And about Yyz717's words

Actually, whether he's Canadian or not is irrelevant. The shareholders want good leadership. Period,

he's at least six months too late with that. Shareholders.. what shareholders. For the past half a year, just a few daytraders playing around (and there better not have been "real" shareholders, still holding on or whatever among 'em). The "Canadian" part, while technically irrelevant, I think factors in nonetheless as most of the Canadian populace (particularly those over about age 35 or so) still see Air Canada largely in its old 'national flag carrier' mantle, and are unlikely to totally give that sentiment up anytime soon either.



User currently offlinePlanemaker From Tuvalu, joined Aug 2003, 6186 posts, RR: 34
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 3068 times:


Milton really has an upside for sticking around...

"If the valuations for Air Canada even approach what the U.S. and European carriers are trading at, these guys are going to be worth between $75-million and $100-million," he said.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20031111.wxrairceq1111/BNStory/Business/





Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
User currently offlineDash8King From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2743 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

. Had Milton been born into a poor Southern US family with the same intelligence, he might be a mechanic or warehouse worker now.

LMAO!!! AC's stock however as fallen quite a bit today to .86.


User currently offlineFallingeese From Canada, joined Apr 2001, 2097 posts, RR: 17
Reply 17, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 3019 times:

I'd love to see someone who wants him to say. Anywhere you look, it seems that he steered the carrier into the ground.

And now, to see that Li is offering him, and his top executive a 1% share, thought to be worth $20 million, that is some nice backing to have.



Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2995 times:

In my opinion, one cannot really blame or question the aggressive attitudes of the AC bargaining divisions. After all, with such a poor (attitude and performance, certainly not in a fiscal sense!), selfish and egocentric
example of upper management, why would anyone expect the employees not to have their hackles raised?


User currently offlineGoose From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 1840 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

All the countless stories of how the cronies at AC mistreated CP employees right off the bat is really sickening - such as AC guys coming in with garbage bags demanding all CP memorabilia be thrown out, or risk losing your job. Or the time when CP employees lost all non-rev priviledges to watch AC employees take their seats. And so on and so forth. Boy do I ever feel sorry for the CP guys at YUL, ouch.

Not all of this is the fault of the senior management... it filters down right to the front-liners and shop stewards of AC's unions as well, some of whom had a ravenous hatred of all things Canadi>n. I recall quite well the "Our Pride, Our Success" stickers which were printed by and proliferated by AC's front-liners around CP's areas in some of the bases immediately after the merger.... to basically rub it in to Canadian Airlines' employees that AC had "won."

Funny how you don't see those stickers anywhere, anymore.....

I don't honestly think that all the animosity between AC and ex-CP folks can be blamed solely on Milton. It has a lot to do with the difference in corporate culture in AC.... corporate culture which was there a long while before Milton started at the helm of the company. But Milton certainly didn't help in trying to bridge the gap or smooth relations over, or welcome the newly-adopted CP employees into the AC fold....

The schism between employees definately doesn't help that company as it tries to get its act together for the future.



"Talk to me, Goose..."
User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2964 times:

"I recall quite well the "Our Pride, Our Success" stickers which were printed by and proliferated by AC's front-liners around CP's areas in some of the bases immediately after the merger.... to basically rub it in to Canadian Airlines' employees that AC had "won."

True. So true. Also, Goose, you are right in stating that the animosity between the AC and CP groups cannot be entirely blamed on "The Thing" and his Super Elites in the boardroom.

"CP employees lost all non-rev priviledges to watch AC employees take their seats".

Now, if anything BURNS me up, it's this particular matter. This was absolutely and totally inexusable for "The Thing" to allow this horrible mistreatment of the Canadi>ners to happen. Their morale and self-respect was at an all time low (following years of the rollercoaster ride that was Canadi>n). Was this ANY WAY for Air Canada to welcome the Proud Wingers to its fold? Was this ANY WAY for the CP group to feel as though they were part of one team?
Yes, yes, the employees themselves at AC, along with management, have their share of blame in this, but this incident in and of itself, to me, was a clear and concise indication of the type of man, the type of CEO, the type of "leader" "The Thing" was, and is.


User currently offlineDash8King From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2743 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2914 times:

I wasn't really into Airlines at the time of the merger, but I remember being able to travel on AC standby through First Air, and your telling me that CDN employees couldn't? Am I missing something?

User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2896 times:

Dash8King, what happened was that when Air Canada officially "absorbed" Canadi>n (hmmm, good word for it), to "celebrate", AC HQ announced that all
AC employees could ride "space available" on CP flights. Unfortunately, this same privilege was denied to CP employees, to an extent. CP employees COULD board the CP flights on space availabe status, however, they would be below any Air Canada employee in terms of seniority or stand-by boarding priority. Nice, eh? Many AC employees took this offer up with glee, and bumped many a CPer off the Canadi>n flights. The AC employees (many, not all, to be fair) rubbed this salt in the CP wound with pleasure, and treated the CP cabin crews on-board with rudeness and disdain. To add fuel to the fire, "The Thing" which is known as Milton, somehow, in some way neglected to allow the CP personnel the same privilege of boarding any AC flight on a stand-by/space available basis. Inshort, the CP personnel were treated like literal and figurative garbage.

As I stated earlier, this was a wonderful, mature, professional and joyous manner in which to welcome the Canadi>n Airlines International personnel to
the Maple Leaf fold.


User currently offlineYyz717 From Canada, joined Sep 2001, 16259 posts, RR: 56
Reply 23, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2883 times:

AC employees could ride "space available" on CP flights. Unfortunately, this same privilege was denied to CP employees, to an extent. CP employees COULD board the CP flights on space availabe status, however, they would be below any Air Canada employee in terms of seniority or stand-by boarding priority. Nice, eh?

Wow. That's nasty. Dirty pool. Not the way to integrate 2 companies.




Panam, TWA, Ansett, Eastern.......AC next? Might be good for Canada.
User currently offlineCanadi>nBoy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 10 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2873 times:

Dirty pool, indeed. Unforgiveable. And people wonder WHY the ex-CP
personnel display such anger and resentment towards Milton and AC?
Of course, the animosity stems from both sides, and the Canadi>ners themselves openly despised anything and all things Air Canada. It was, and is, a long standing feud. But THIS?



25 Donder10 : Sounds a bit like the Swissair/Crossair scenario! Does Li seriously view the current management team as the only ones who could successfully implement
26 Canadi>nBoy : In all fairness, I must add this. I have flown Air Canada many times over the past 6 years, and have come into contact with many wonderful ground staf
27 Crj 900 : Thanks all for saying what I couldn't have said better myself....as a former CP employee I find it hard to believe that with the current bumbling mana
28 Canadi>nBoy : "Does Li seriously view the current management team as the only ones who could successfully implement a turn-around plan?!?" This truly, truly boggles
29 Yyz717 : Aside from all of this, one has to wonder if Li even seriously questioned some of the truly assinine decisions made by Milton and the board re AC oper
30 Post contains images Canadi>nBoy : "Would rather fly a clapped out old F28 and have staff that cares and treats passengers the way they expect to be treated. Rest in peace CP we miss yo
31 Canadi>nBoy : "Maybe he plans to clean house in the AC mgmt ranks. One can only hope." Agreed. I feel the only way ALL Air Canada employees can go forward is if Mil
32 Chock head : Someone asked in this thread what role Milton would have had in deciding who the investor would be. I would speculate that he had quite a big role and
33 Cessnapimp : According to the Globe and Mail article listed above Air Canada spokeswoman Priscille Leblanc said Mr. Milton abstained from the board of directors' v
34 Planemaker : Milton was introduced to Li in Hong Kong last year by AC Director Ms. Kwok (she recently resigned to avoid conflict of interest appearances.) Kwok's h
35 Canuckpaxguy : Who said anything about a $6 million severance? He's already going to get $20M worth of shares (well, at yesterday's price anyway). Any suggestions f
36 Sydscott : They could always get Kenneth Lay to run Air Canada.......at least it would be instantly profitable. I mean seriously how much more capital is he goi
37 CanadianNorth : Should Milton Resign From Air Canada? hell yeah! CanadianNorth
38 CanadaEH : Milton should be removed from his position, not resign. But.. Without Milton at the helm, would Air Canada emerge from bankruptcy protection? No Milto
39 Post contains images Goose : Oh, God, WHERE are the Max Wards!!?? I would surmise that at least one of them works at WestJet ... and the rest... well, Max hit some hard times and
40 Canadi>nBoy : Maxwell Ward, above and beyond all of his other attributes, was a gentleman. He was also exceedingly empathetic towards his employee group. He possess
41 Canadi>nBoy : "After the conditional offering of 650 million, what's another 4 mil to cleanup house? Priceless if you ask me. Might sound incredible to dish out so
42 Canadi>nBoy : "Realistically, the Air Canada employees only care about one thing right now - emerging from bankruptcy protection. If they do, and they suceed - they
43 Yyz717 : Let's not get too nostalgic about Max Ward. Yes, we all look fondly back at WD, but it was only ever a marginally profitable charter airline. Max's st
44 Canadi>nBoy : "Max Ward was JUST another failed airline executive". You know, I am truly sorry that many people see others and form rigid opinions of them based on
45 Goose : WestJet and Air Transat exist and flourish today, because Max Ward fought Ottawa tooth and nail for deregulation and the ability to grow his airline w
46 Yyz717 : But I am speaking about the man himself, what he believed in and what he represented, not his corporate track record. I see your point, but when you s
47 Post contains links Goose : http://exn.ca/FlightDeck/Aviators/ward.cfm You're missing a point - that Max Ward sold his beloved airline to PWA's holding company (which later becam
48 Post contains images Canadi>nBoy : Hmmm, you and I are obviously speaking out from polar opposite ends of the spectrum re Max Ward and his legacy, and I would be guilty of negligence an
49 Canadi>nBoy : Goose, you beat me to it, as your train of thought just entered my mind. It's true, Max bent over backwards to ensure with PWA that as many WD jobs wo
50 Yyz717 : You're missing a point - that Max Ward sold his beloved airline to PWA's holding company (which later became Canadian Airlines).... and many folks kep
51 Goose : How much did Max Ward and his family own of Wardair? I can't find the figures.... I'm guessing he owned a pretty respectable stake, figuring that he f
52 Canadi>nBoy : Okay, I suppose we all realize that Max Ward was an exceedingly nice man who possessed great character and integrity, who ran one hell of a great char
53 Canadi>nBoy : YET, everyone still loves and respects him. There, we're all squared now!
54 Post contains images Yyz717 : Okay, I suppose we all realize that Max Ward was an exceedingly nice man who possessed great character and integrity, who ran one hell of a great char
55 Canadi>nBoy : Okay, ONE more note on Max, then back to Miltie. "I don't think that WD's troubles were entirely Max's fault... but some were probably aggrevated by t
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