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Boeing 717, Success Or Failure?  
User currently offlineJU101 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 832 posts, RR: 4
Posted (11 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6792 times:

I would really like to know what people think of the future of the Boeing 717.


What customers or potential customers did Boeing ask, when they were thinking of the 717 in the predevelopment phase?

In the development phase, i am sure that it was cost efficient because it used research and design material from older Douglas aircraft models. Nevertheless do you think the 717 was specifically created to replace the vast DC-9 fleet? Was it designed too late?

Do you view them redundant, since they are in the same capacity as the Boeing 737-500 and 737-600?

Should the line be discontinued? and why?

Any info or comment are definately welcome!!!

37 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKorg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (11 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6707 times:

I think what's going to make the 717 profitable for Boeing is NWA'S final descion on replacing there DC-9S with 717s that is if it happens and Hopefully AA would too. I think that is enought for the 717 to look good.


Please excuse my English!
User currently offlineMark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (11 years 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 6657 times:

What Korg747 said!  Smile


Technically the plane seems to be more than fine, even kind of a passenger and airline pleaser. Though it hasn't yet hit a critical mass in the marketplace and those two aforementioned carriers are the likeliest candidates who can even come close to making that happen.


I hope the plane's production has a future -- I figure it deserves it. Heck if Embraer has some real problems getting their E170 (and E190) out the door then that can only brighten its prospects.


User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1626 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (11 years 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 6496 times:

I believe the 717 is an out-dated animal, kept for political reasons in the McD/Boeing merger.

The shorthaul market place is about A319/A320/737's, and if you want smaller you go for something like the Embraer 190.

Like the A318 I expect, the 717 will not have a place, and will find its way into aircraft history soon.

It's sad, but then it has had a very good run in its various forms.

Rich.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (11 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6408 times:

If the Star Alliance places an order for the 717-300 I think we will see an improvement of the 717 fortunes.

User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (11 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6380 times:

A dismal failure. They (BCAC) have no idea what to do with this orphan. It continues the losing fortunes of the original DC-9's and MD-80/90's.

User currently offlineLehpron From United States of America, joined Jul 2001, 7028 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (11 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6334 times:

Boeing's failure and McDonnel Douglas' success.


The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
User currently offlineAA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (11 years 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 6236 times:

I don't understand these 717 threads that speculate on AA replacing their MD-80 fleet with 717s. Why would AA do that? They just canned all the 717s they picked up in the TWA deal. Capacity reductions are the current replacement for the MD-80's, followed by the CRJ additions. Somewhere down the road yes, AA will have to replace the MD-80, but if you are looking for that move to save the B717 line, then you might as well go ahead and board up the factory, b/c it is not going to happen.

As far as NWA, until a DC-9 falls out of the sky, they are not going to rush to replace. Every time one of those lifts off, it is pure profit - i.e. no costs associated with financing the plane makes your operating costs a hell of a lot lower. When they do get around to replacing them, will they go Abus or Boeing? I think every major acquisition they have made in the past 5+ years has been Abus, so I would not pick them to buck that trend and go with a new cockpit, a new hull, and all the associated costs in terms of bringing in a new aircraft type. I would expect the to go Abus, it just makes too much sense not to.

In that regard, I would say the 717 program has not been as big a success as it was hoped to be, but I would not call it a failure.

I would not call the DC-9 or MD-80 programs a failure by any extent, seeing as how they are some of the most heavily utilized aircraft in history, with outstanding saftey records, positive passanger feedback, extreme longevity, and generally low operating costs. I am not going to rattle of a list of carriers that use(d) these aircraft, but I am quite confident it would fill a lot of space.



[Edited 2003-11-20 23:09:16]


See you up front!
User currently offlineSrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (11 years 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6161 times:

The reason why AMR dumped the TWA 717s is that TWA was paying very lousy rates (think pawnshop rates) on the a/c, and AMR could not get the rates that they wanted.

The 717 cannot really be called a failure or a success just yet. If the Star Alliance order goes elsewhere, look to see Boeing deliver all current orders for it and then shut the line down. I mean they have sold more 717-200s than 737-600s, so I would say that it more successful than the 736. If the Star Alliance does order the a/c, then the future is bright, and the program will be a success.


User currently offlineTekelberry From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1459 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (11 years 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 6100 times:

The 717 was dumped by AA due to TWA's terrible lease.

AA isn't looking at the 717 to replace the MD80, but they may start looking for a 100 seat replacement for the F100 (Gerard Arpey, Dallas Daily News). The 717 would be a perfect fit. Eventually, AA's SP80s will be replaced by the 737NGs. I emphasize eventually as the SP80s won't be replaced for a very very long time.

[Edited 2003-11-20 23:58:40]

User currently offlineNudelhirsch From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 1438 posts, RR: 19
Reply 10, posted (11 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6057 times:

AFAIK, or see it, StarAllaince is rather ordering Airbus, so the 318 would be pretty interesting.

I flew on a MD80 which was cool, although I kept hitting my head on the wall, because the diameter of the cabin is too small even for my little length...

It's also one of the most beautiful AC in the world, and it was pretty successful time ago.

I think the 717 is pretty good AC, old school design combined with modern flight equipment in the front office.

But there might be a big market for the 717, hopefully...



Putana da Seatbeltz!
User currently offlineJeffrey1970 From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 1336 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (11 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6048 times:

Could it be that the 717 has not taken off yet because many airlines are not doing very good financially, and are not in position to buy new aircraft.

God bless through Jesus,

Jeff



God bless through Jesus, Jeff
User currently offlinePatroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (11 years 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 6000 times:

Two weeks ago I flew for the first time on the Boeing 717 (I opted for AirTran LGA-ATL-HOU rather than the boring CO 737-500 out of JFK  Big grin ). Well, what can I say? The 717 is a very nice aircraft, extremely quiet and I found it very comortable. So if the Star Alliance would go for a 717 order, I would be a happy customer Big grin

Cheers,
Tom


User currently offlineL1011Fan From United States of America, joined May 2003, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (11 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5916 times:

I don't think it's a failure but rather a victim of the economy. It has a lot going for it. Aside from the economy, I find it hard to believe that more airlines haven't purchased it. I look forward to trips in the 717. I hope Star purchases the 713 as that would be a huge boost for the program.

I agree with the above posters; NW won't buy the 717 unless their DC-9's start falling out of the sky. I'm sure NW doesn't care what I think, but my $$$ is spent buying tickets on an airline who has better equipment than the DC9 (but that's another topic altogether). On the other hand, if NW had 717s.....

I don't understand why AA would want the 717 as an MD80 replacement. That would be a downgrade in terms of pax capacity. Unless, of course, Boeing launches the 713. The 73G is a better replacement for the MadDogs.



User currently offlineRichard28 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2003, 1626 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (11 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5905 times:

Patroni,

It is extremely quiet - unless you're sitting in the back, with an engine smack bang outside your window!

Worst seat on any shorthauler  Sad ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!


User currently offlineAirdude66 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (11 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5869 times:

The 717 is the after birth of a ValuJet / Douglas venture called the MD95.

Valujet invested a lot in the engineering, planning and development of this aircraft for them. It was not until after the AirTran merger when Airtran could not obtain financing that it was opened up on a wider scale. TWA placed an order which aided AirTran in securing financing.

As for the Aircraft - you get what you pay for. The fresh air is a great travel experience and it is quieter. The interior selected by AirTran is very cheap and probably no tlast long before looking bad. The primary structure is modeled after the DC9 but with more composite materials. The skin is so thin you risk a ding just tapping on the side. I would hate to see this thing hit a hail storm!

I do not think this is a long runner.

There was supposed yo be an option of ER center fuel tank but that was a disaster because fully fueled - it can not be booked to capacity without being overweight so the ER version was abandoned.

Extended range is really the only thing that would have made it desirable in the long haul.


User currently offlineAIR757200 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (11 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5854 times:

The 717 was dumped by AA due to TWA's terrible lease.

Exactly, so let's grasp the concept folks.. We've discussed it many times that this is the reason for AA dumping the 717.

flew on a MD80 which was cool, although I kept hitting my head on the wall, because the diameter of the cabin is too small even for my little length...

"Little length", so I'm assuming your less than 6'1? If so, I'm 6'1 and have no problems with the MD-80's size. Were you swaying your head back and forth while sitting at a window seat?  Big grin If so, you'll have that problem on any airliner.


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (11 years 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 5819 times:

The interior selected by AirTran is very cheap and probably no tlast long before looking bad.

Not entirely accurate. Just a fun fact. Did you know that the AirTran 717 interior was selected by Valujet's COO at the time of order. (Lewis H. Jordan).

If somebody would like to see proof, Please email me and I will send you a picture of the VJ Tag under the AirTran 717 seat cushion. (Sorry, A.net members only).


User currently offlineAirdude66 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (11 years 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5793 times:

Not true......

I worked for AirTran in 1998/1999 when the interior was being selected.

When the aircraft was in testing. It flew with I believe 3 different seat styles before the final selection was made.


User currently offlineBR715-A1-30 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (11 years 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 5776 times:

Airdude, I have been told repeatedly, high and low that this was Valujet's selection. Maybe they were testing DIFFERENT other interiors, but they stuck with this one.

User currently offlineLgbguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (11 years 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 5647 times:

I'm glad to see a generally positive attitude toward MD95 (717).

I'm around the airplane a lot and know the folks who build the aircraft at Long Beach very well.

They put their heart and soul into its production, it is a labor of love for them. They take great pride in building this fine aircraft and hope that more orders are made.

The MD95 is an extremely fine aircraft and everyone that works with it, flight crews, ground personnel, and passengers alike all love the aircraft. Every pilot I speak with just gets a big smile on his or her face when asked "how do you like flying the MD95". No one has ever had a bad word to say about it.

So lets hope many more orders come in for this fine Douglas (Boeing) airplane.

Mike
lgbguy


User currently offlineBoingGoingGone From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (11 years 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 5579 times:

Could it be that the 717 has not taken off yet because many airlines are not doing very good financially, and are not in position to buy new aircraft.

Truer words could not be spoken. The customers who are most likely to buy this aircraft are not in the market to buy right now.


User currently offlineGreg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (11 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5429 times:

Enough of this 'it's the best aircraft ever conceived, built and delivered'---but it just won't sell because of the market. And please, don't pander us with this 'hear and soul' into every aircraft. Airplanes are built soley on conformance to requirements--nothing more or less.

The market has spoken. It has said no. Even 200 more sales won't make it break even.


User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (11 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5375 times:

If the Star Alliance does not order the 717-300 my bets would be on the EMB-190. The A318 is just to heavy.

User currently offlineLgbguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (11 years 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 5324 times:

Greg,

I take great offense to your comment as I would never pander anyone. If you would come to Long Beach and meet the people that build this wonderful aircraft, I think you would see that what I say is true.

The market has not spoken as of yet, the MD95 still lives on and hopefully will continue to do so despite critics such as yourself. The aircraft continues the fine Douglas tradition of building tough reliable airplanes that will soldier on for the next 40 years and beyond as does the rest of the Douglas family of aircraft.

So please refrain from making such comments as I do not appreciate them.

Mike
lgbguy



25 Airdude66 : I would be surprised if these aircraft hit the 20 year mark. They are just not built that well. They are lighter and extremely efficient - compomise h
26 LMP737 : Airdude66: Which aircraft are you speaking of?
27 Steph001 : The B717 is not often seen in Europe, but there are some carriers that opted for it. One of them is Olympic Airways , another is Spanair. Spanair has
28 Tokolosh : I was just wondering, is the 717 only built in the U.S.? I remember MD (or was it only Douglas at the time) made a deal in China to produce DC9s there
29 LMP737 : Yes the 717 is still made in the USA. However many of components are made in other countries. The wings are made in Canada, the fuselage in Italy, the
30 Greg : Again, it's not an 'emotional' issue....this "wonderful" aircraft is not selling (maybe it's not so wonderful???) And as I stated, even 200 more would
31 Asianguy767 : I think its a great plane but the timing is just off...besides a NW and/or AA, star alliance order i wonder if MH will consider it as a replacement ff
32 Tokolosh : LMP737, Really interesting information you gave. The 717 is really an international plane! Greetings
33 LMP737 : Tokolosh: Guess it shows that the lines are somewhat blurred when it comes to trade between nations.
34 KaiGywer : Kinda off topic, but does the B717 have the same problem as the MD90, being to light up front? I remember when SK first got the MD90, they needed 3 pe
35 Post contains images Tokolosh : LMP737, Good point. It kinda destroys these Boeing vs Airbus arguments.
36 JeckPDX : I doubt AA will opt for the 717 for two reasons.One, it operates the 737-800 which would share commonality with a 737NG that would be a more likely re
37 Thrust : First of all, the Boeing 717 is not "outdated." While the Boeing 717 may be a reincarnation of the DC-9, it's BMW-Rolls Royce engines are incredibly f
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