JU101 From Canada, joined Mar 2001, 832 posts, RR: 4 Posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6687 times:
I would really like to know what people think of the future of the Boeing 717.
What customers or potential customers did Boeing ask, when they were thinking of the 717 in the predevelopment phase?
In the development phase, i am sure that it was cost efficient because it used research and design material from older Douglas aircraft models. Nevertheless do you think the 717 was specifically created to replace the vast DC-9 fleet? Was it designed too late?
Do you view them redundant, since they are in the same capacity as the Boeing 737-500 and 737-600?
Korg747 From United States of America, joined Mar 2003, 549 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6602 times:
I think what's going to make the 717 profitable for Boeing is NWA'S final descion on replacing there DC-9S with 717s that is if it happens and Hopefully AA would too. I think that is enought for the 717 to look good.
Mark_D. From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 1447 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 6552 times:
What Korg747 said!
Technically the plane seems to be more than fine, even kind of a passenger and airline pleaser. Though it hasn't yet hit a critical mass in the marketplace and those two aforementioned carriers are the likeliest candidates who can even come close to making that happen.
I hope the plane's production has a future -- I figure it deserves it. Heck if Embraer has some real problems getting their E170 (and E190) out the door then that can only brighten its prospects.
AA7573E From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 475 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6131 times:
I don't understand these 717 threads that speculate on AA replacing their MD-80 fleet with 717s. Why would AA do that? They just canned all the 717s they picked up in the TWA deal. Capacity reductions are the current replacement for the MD-80's, followed by the CRJ additions. Somewhere down the road yes, AA will have to replace the MD-80, but if you are looking for that move to save the B717 line, then you might as well go ahead and board up the factory, b/c it is not going to happen.
As far as NWA, until a DC-9 falls out of the sky, they are not going to rush to replace. Every time one of those lifts off, it is pure profit - i.e. no costs associated with financing the plane makes your operating costs a hell of a lot lower. When they do get around to replacing them, will they go Abus or Boeing? I think every major acquisition they have made in the past 5+ years has been Abus, so I would not pick them to buck that trend and go with a new cockpit, a new hull, and all the associated costs in terms of bringing in a new aircraft type. I would expect the to go Abus, it just makes too much sense not to.
In that regard, I would say the 717 program has not been as big a success as it was hoped to be, but I would not call it a failure.
I would not call the DC-9 or MD-80 programs a failure by any extent, seeing as how they are some of the most heavily utilized aircraft in history, with outstanding saftey records, positive passanger feedback, extreme longevity, and generally low operating costs. I am not going to rattle of a list of carriers that use(d) these aircraft, but I am quite confident it would fill a lot of space.
Srbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 6056 times:
The reason why AMR dumped the TWA 717s is that TWA was paying very lousy rates (think pawnshop rates) on the a/c, and AMR could not get the rates that they wanted.
The 717 cannot really be called a failure or a success just yet. If the Star Alliance order goes elsewhere, look to see Boeing deliver all current orders for it and then shut the line down. I mean they have sold more 717-200s than 737-600s, so I would say that it more successful than the 736. If the Star Alliance does order the a/c, then the future is bright, and the program will be a success.
Tekelberry From United States of America, joined May 2003, 1459 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5995 times:
The 717 was dumped by AA due to TWA's terrible lease.
AA isn't looking at the 717 to replace the MD80, but they may start looking for a 100 seat replacement for the F100 (Gerard Arpey, Dallas Daily News). The 717 would be a perfect fit. Eventually, AA's SP80s will be replaced by the 737NGs. I emphasize eventually as the SP80s won't be replaced for a very very long time.
Patroni From Luxembourg, joined Aug 1999, 1403 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 5895 times:
Two weeks ago I flew for the first time on the Boeing 717 (I opted for AirTran LGA-ATL-HOU rather than the boring CO 737-500 out of JFK ). Well, what can I say? The 717 is a very nice aircraft, extremely quiet and I found it very comortable. So if the Star Alliance would go for a 717 order, I would be a happy customer
L1011Fan From United States of America, joined May 2003, 271 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 5811 times:
I don't think it's a failure but rather a victim of the economy. It has a lot going for it. Aside from the economy, I find it hard to believe that more airlines haven't purchased it. I look forward to trips in the 717. I hope Star purchases the 713 as that would be a huge boost for the program.
I agree with the above posters; NW won't buy the 717 unless their DC-9's start falling out of the sky. I'm sure NW doesn't care what I think, but my $$$ is spent buying tickets on an airline who has better equipment than the DC9 (but that's another topic altogether). On the other hand, if NW had 717s.....
I don't understand why AA would want the 717 as an MD80 replacement. That would be a downgrade in terms of pax capacity. Unless, of course, Boeing launches the 713. The 73G is a better replacement for the MadDogs.
Airdude66 From United States of America, joined Nov 2003, 187 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5764 times:
The 717 is the after birth of a ValuJet / Douglas venture called the MD95.
Valujet invested a lot in the engineering, planning and development of this aircraft for them. It was not until after the AirTran merger when Airtran could not obtain financing that it was opened up on a wider scale. TWA placed an order which aided AirTran in securing financing.
As for the Aircraft - you get what you pay for. The fresh air is a great travel experience and it is quieter. The interior selected by AirTran is very cheap and probably no tlast long before looking bad. The primary structure is modeled after the DC9 but with more composite materials. The skin is so thin you risk a ding just tapping on the side. I would hate to see this thing hit a hail storm!
I do not think this is a long runner.
There was supposed yo be an option of ER center fuel tank but that was a disaster because fully fueled - it can not be booked to capacity without being overweight so the ER version was abandoned.
Extended range is really the only thing that would have made it desirable in the long haul.
AIR757200 From United States of America, joined Jul 2000, 1579 posts, RR: 7
Reply 16, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 5749 times:
The 717 was dumped by AA due to TWA's terrible lease.
Exactly, so let's grasp the concept folks.. We've discussed it many times that this is the reason for AA dumping the 717.
flew on a MD80 which was cool, although I kept hitting my head on the wall, because the diameter of the cabin is too small even for my little length...
"Little length", so I'm assuming your less than 6'1? If so, I'm 6'1 and have no problems with the MD-80's size. Were you swaying your head back and forth while sitting at a window seat? If so, you'll have that problem on any airliner.
Lgbguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 5542 times:
I'm glad to see a generally positive attitude toward MD95 (717).
I'm around the airplane a lot and know the folks who build the aircraft at Long Beach very well.
They put their heart and soul into its production, it is a labor of love for them. They take great pride in building this fine aircraft and hope that more orders are made.
The MD95 is an extremely fine aircraft and everyone that works with it, flight crews, ground personnel, and passengers alike all love the aircraft. Every pilot I speak with just gets a big smile on his or her face when asked "how do you like flying the MD95". No one has ever had a bad word to say about it.
So lets hope many more orders come in for this fine Douglas (Boeing) airplane.
Greg From United Kingdom, joined May 2005, 0 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 5324 times:
Enough of this 'it's the best aircraft ever conceived, built and delivered'---but it just won't sell because of the market. And please, don't pander us with this 'hear and soul' into every aircraft. Airplanes are built soley on conformance to requirements--nothing more or less.
The market has spoken. It has said no. Even 200 more sales won't make it break even.
Lgbguy From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (10 years 10 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 5219 times:
I take great offense to your comment as I would never pander anyone. If you would come to Long Beach and meet the people that build this wonderful aircraft, I think you would see that what I say is true.
The market has not spoken as of yet, the MD95 still lives on and hopefully will continue to do so despite critics such as yourself. The aircraft continues the fine Douglas tradition of building tough reliable airplanes that will soldier on for the next 40 years and beyond as does the rest of the Douglas family of aircraft.
So please refrain from making such comments as I do not appreciate them.
: I would be surprised if these aircraft hit the 20 year mark. They are just not built that well. They are lighter and extremely efficient - compomise h
: Airdude66: Which aircraft are you speaking of?
: The B717 is not often seen in Europe, but there are some carriers that opted for it. One of them is Olympic Airways , another is Spanair. Spanair has
: I was just wondering, is the 717 only built in the U.S.? I remember MD (or was it only Douglas at the time) made a deal in China to produce DC9s there
: Yes the 717 is still made in the USA. However many of components are made in other countries. The wings are made in Canada, the fuselage in Italy, the
: Again, it's not an 'emotional' issue....this "wonderful" aircraft is not selling (maybe it's not so wonderful???) And as I stated, even 200 more would
: I think its a great plane but the timing is just off...besides a NW and/or AA, star alliance order i wonder if MH will consider it as a replacement ff
: LMP737, Really interesting information you gave. The 717 is really an international plane! Greetings
: Tokolosh: Guess it shows that the lines are somewhat blurred when it comes to trade between nations.
: Kinda off topic, but does the B717 have the same problem as the MD90, being to light up front? I remember when SK first got the MD90, they needed 3 pe
: LMP737, Good point. It kinda destroys these Boeing vs Airbus arguments.
: I doubt AA will opt for the 717 for two reasons.One, it operates the 737-800 which would share commonality with a 737NG that would be a more likely re
: First of all, the Boeing 717 is not "outdated." While the Boeing 717 may be a reincarnation of the DC-9, it's BMW-Rolls Royce engines are incredibly f